Thread: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

Originally Posted by Masurao

With what Pokemon? If Langley and Dawn couldn't beat it with a 4x advantage, what chance to Ash and Trip have? Ash has absolutely no answer to Dragonite on his team right now at all, and Trip seems to be using Serperior. All Dragonite has to do is fly around and spam flamethrower.

An interesting notion, Shooti's Jalorda has been said to be "fast".

-During the Kanto GF battle of Shuu and Haruka mentioned Shuu's Pokémon being fast.
-During Musalina and Urara's battle in DP162, Nyasu mentioned Plusle and Minun being fast.
-A less stronger example, in the final battle of Hikari and Nozomi, Ayako mentioned how quickly Nozomi's Pokémon did her commands.

So yeah, they are hyping up Jalorda to be a quite competent battler. Whether this is so Shooty can be shown a decent trainer enough to win the whole thing or a decent trainer enough to be supposedly a good challange to whoever he battles in order to glorify that person is of course still up in the air.

Also, Jalorda also has a type disadvantage against Dragonite since Dragonite is also a flying type. And since type advantage is actually a disadvantage (and vice versa) in Best Wishes, Jalorda could beat Dragonite.

Originally Posted by Aura7541

Also, Jalorda also has a type disadvantage against Dragonite since Dragonite is also a flying type. And since type advantage is actually a disadvantage (and vice versa) in Best Wishes, Jalorda could beat Dragonite.

You're right. I've just realized that. I hope Trip will be smart and use his ice cream cones anyway because it would atleast show everyone that trainers are thinking when they want to win. But if Iris does win against that, then it will be three ice Pokemon it will have beaten. Meaning it will be unstoppable. Scary but true.

Originally Posted by Aura7541

Also, Jalorda also has a type disadvantage against Dragonite since Dragonite is also a flying type. And since type advantage is actually a disadvantage (and vice versa) in Best Wishes, Jalorda could beat Dragonite.

Honestly, with the amount of BS the Unova arc has pulled off so far I wouldn't be suprised if that did happen... Hopefully the snake pulls of a Dragon Pulse or Outrage if that happens.

Originally Posted by Masurao

With what Pokemon? If Langley and Dawn couldn't beat it with a 4x advantage, what chance to Ash and Trip have? Ash has absolutely no answer to Dragonite on his team right now at all, and Trip seems to be using Serperior. All Dragonite has to do is fly around and spam flamethrower.

He has Ice type too you know and he has a Flying type. If he using Vanilluxe he can do some section targeting and if he use Unfezant he can use some air movement tactic. Not to mention Serps can use dragon pulse if he MUST use him and Trip has seen Ash's vine whip techs. Ash's Pikachu super powered enough I think to beat. They have plenty of chance.

Originally Posted by Chiplet

I really fail to see the problem with having Dragonite beat both Mamoswine and Beartic. Even though it's true that Dragonite and Iris is far away from working in sync, Dragonite's tremendous strength really isn't decreased. It's just like Beartic and Mamoswine is battling a wild Pokémon, and who said that wild Pokémon cannot be strong?

Remember when Ash and the gang were going to catch Buizel? Well, if I recall correctly, didn't Buizel pretty much beat Piplup, Glameow AND Pikachu in a row? I think it did. He managed to beat three very powerful Pokémon (even though it's true Piplup wasn't really that strong back then, it was still Dawn's strongest Pokémon) in a row, not to mention that he actually managed to beat Pikachu, who has the advantage due to its Electric-type moves. Well, the way Dragonite is beating both Mamoswine AND Beartic is just the same thing, because since Iris and Dragonite aren't co-operating it is just like Dawn and Georgia battle a wild Pokémon, which they fail to beat.

They have the advantage, sure, but so did Pikachu in its battle against Buizel, not to mention Pikachu's massive amount of experience . Sure, Georgia should have beaten Dragonite, but it really isn't impossible for Dragonite to win here.

You're right. There is nothing wrong with Dragonite being strong. For me, the problem is who's controlling the Dragonite. Thing is it isn't a wild pokemon. Its Iris' pokemon. To echo what people have already said here, she's been spoon fed a powerful pokemon SHE has no business having. She's most likely going to blow through this tournament with only that Dragonite and possibly even beat Alder. To top it off right before this junior cup she had a high level Dragonite fall right in her lap allowing her to beat trainers that actually work really hard training their pokemon. That's why everyone is complaining I think.

The more I think about it, the more I end up realizing that Dragonite is just to overpowered for it's own good and it should have been a weakling Dragonite from the start.

Perhaps they should show Dragonite's previous trainer, assuming he had one before it was presumably abandoned, if not, then I don't know what to say execpt that the Writers should never have portrayed Dragonite to be as strong as it was, even if it is a psuedo-legendary pokemon.

Originally Posted by Umbreon19

You're right. There is nothing wrong with Dragonite being strong. For me, the problem is who's controlling the Dragonite.

And that is the exact thing that everyone is bugged out about. Of course no one minds Dragonite personally, why would they do that? What they're bothered about is how Iris gets it right before a tournament.

Thing is it isn't a wild pokemon. Its Iris' pokemon. To echo what people have already said here, she's been spoon fed a powerful pokemon SHE has no business having.

''She has no business having''? Oh, of course not. It's not like she's training to be a Dragon Master or anything, that was some other female protagonist. Misty, was it?

Jokes aside, I'm not a fan of Iris getting a Dragonite either, but I'm not going to start bashing her character just because the writers decided to give it to her, at least not until I've actually seen what the future holds in store for the two of them. As of yet, we haven't seen a single single thing from the two of them, only some mere previews and scans, and I'm not going to judge someone before I've even seen the episodes they're being featured in. I would completely understand if someone would be displeased with the way they’re being treated after that the episodes have aired, because then it’s simply a matter of your own personal preference. But now the episodes really haven’t aired yet, have they? So, saying that Dragonite comes on a silver platter really isn’t the formulation I’d be using. Especially not as this tournament really won’t help Iris in any way to reach her goal of becoming a Dragon Master faster. I mean, it’s not like the Togekiss incident, where Togekiss was given to Dawn right before Grand Festival, a tournament that decides if she’s going to become a Top-Coordinator or not.

If this was like a ‘’Dragon Tournament’’ of some sort, like the Whirlpool Cup, I’d understand the hatred fully, as that’d mean that Iris would be given a direct short-cut to becoming a Dragon Master just like that. This isn’t a Dragon Tournament, however. From the looks of things, this only seems like a bit more glorified Don Tournament, and Iris has won already, which made absolutely no difference in her life, so why would this do?

Yeah, I know that Iris definitely does not deserve to win this tournament, since it really should be focusing on Trip and Ash’s rivalry, but even if she did she still wouldn’t have taken a step further towards reaching her goal, would she? So, unless it’s a tournament that can help her further advance into becoming a Dragon Master, I don’t really see the problem. Sure, she should let Trainers like Ash and Trip to make it to the final as they, unlike her, actually can gain something in their rivalry by making it all the way to the final.

She's most likely going to blow through this tournament with only that Dragonite and possibly even beat Alder.

That’s exaggerating. We all know perfectly well that Iris won’t beat Alder. That just won’t happen, at least not if he’s giving it his all, and not fighting the way he did with Ash in their last battle. No matter how powerful a wild Pokémon is, I doubt it can beat a Pokémon trained by a Champion.

She has no badges. Almost every battle she HAS won has been highly questionable (in my opinion). To top it off right before this junior cup she had a high level Dragonite fall right in her lap allowing her to beat trainers that actually work really hard training their pokemon.

What does the fact that she has no badges have to with anything? And yes, they’ve been questionable in your opinion, but definitely not in mine. The only battle that I personally thought could have gone either way was the battle she had with Burgundy. But, that’s just my opinion.
And here we go again, with Dragonite being given to Iris on a ‘’silver platter’’. I can’t really tell if it was or not, since y’know, I haven’t watched the episode yet.

That's why everyone is complaining I think. It's more about Iris.

Lol no, it’s all about Dragonite. Of course it is about Iris. However, no matter what character Dragonite would’ve been given to, it still would’ve been awful writing, just the way it is with Iris. That is, of course, if Dragonite himself doesn’t bring forth future challenges and struggles for the character that may justify its capture slightly. If Iris actually trains Dragonite, and if Dragonite actually proves to be beneficial for both Axew and Iris’ development in the future, then I’d be completely fine with it. But as of now, when I don’t know a thing, I can’t decide if it’s good or bad.

Which I can completely understand because I personally don't like her character at all. More so how the writers have handled her character. Poor style of writing in my humble opinion.

I like her character. I like her character a lot. However, there have been a couple of times where I too have been feeling unsure and not been satisfied at all. (Axew learning Giga Impact and this whole Dragonite thing are two examples) Although I don’t really judge character for their accomplishments, training and effort, I judge a character for their ability to keep me entertained.

Funny how all this controversy could have been avoided if Iris simply did not get a Dragonite, but rather a Dratini instead.

Even if it was just a Dratini, it would be awfully suspect of Iris to get it literally one episode before a major tournament and then primarily use that Pokemon when she has other more experienced options, because more and more it looks like Iris is the only one advancing in this tournament who is sticking with just one Pokemon when she could have been alternating the whole time. Given Dragonite's issues, you'd think she WOULD alternate, but nope. All made even more bullshit that Iris is trampling down Ice-types. If she faces Trip next, I won't be surprised if he uses Vanilluxe just to maintain that running theme. Ash has no Unova Ice-types, so if the CotD doesn't either, then my bets are on her facing Trip next. :P And just like Dawn, I don't really think Trip's passion for Alder makes his Vanilluxe a more difficult opponent for Dragonite than Georgia's Beartic, meaning he would be doomed.

(Warning: unfunny joke segment ahead!)

Since type logic is utterly fucking backwards in Best Wishes, even more so in this tournament based on what we know, the only way Trip or Ash will have a shot at beating Iris is if they have a Pokemon that would normally suck against a pseudo-legendary Dragon/Flying-type (the anime has always hyped Dragonites up, they may as well be pseudo-legendaries in the anime as well :P). That means Pokemon with type advantages against either Dragon or Flying have a very slim chance at winning here, eliminating Trip's Vanilluxe (assuming it's fully-evolved since it's been ages since Vanillite was last seen), Ash's Pikachu, and Ash's Boldore. Let's go the extra mile and say neutral types aren't likely to make the cut either, which takes out Ash and Trip's Unfezant.

The ones that have better chances but still might flub it are the types neutral to Dragon/Flying moves but have move types that are ineffective against Dragonite. That would be just Trip's Lampent (prolly Chandelure by now). Assuming Dragonite has no Flying-type moves (all we know of right now is ThunderPunch and Flamethrower, so Pokemon weak to those are filtered out), add in Trip's Conkeldurr, Ash's Pignite, and Ash's Scraggy.

Technically Ash's Palpitoad and Krokorok fall under this category, but have an added bonus of having a handicap set on their moves since Ground-type moves won't affect Dragonite at all. Type immunity didn't help Ash's chances in the Don Battle against Iris, but maybe things could change. :P Given that this would be a very good opportunity for Krokorok to evolve and all...

That leaves Pokemon that are both weak to Dragonite and have moves that won't affect it much: to ThunderPunch, Ash's Oshawott and Trip's Frillish (prolly Jellicent by now); to Flamethrower, Ash's Snivy, Trip's Serperior (unless it learned Dragon Tail), and Ash's Leavanny (4x weakness!!).

So if we work off of BW's ass-backwards type logic alone, we have five, technically seven Pokemon that have even the slightest chance of taking Dragonite out.

Make of that how you will. :P

(unfunny joke segment over!)

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Funny how all this controversy could have been avoided if Iris simply did not get a Dragonite, but rather a Dratini instead.

So ... instead of a Powerful Dragonite beating both the Bear and Mamaswine, Iris having yet ANOTHER baby Dragon would be better? And that baby Dragon is somehow strong enough to beat 2 fully evolved Ice-Type Pokemon (Though Axew isn't strong enough to go up against either of those Pokemon)? And THAT would "fix" things?

No, that wouldn't fix anything in the case of said Dragon baby being strong enough to beat those 2. If you're thinking that she would have been beaten in the case of her having a Dratini instead of a Dragonite then you're effectively saying she should just have a new weakling instead of a new power house ... which pretty much means you think she should be weaker because people are threaten by the thought of her having strong pokemon.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Funny how all this controversy could have been avoided if Iris simply did not get a Dragonite, but rather a Dratini instead.

That might have helped a bit, but it would still be kind of cheap for Iris to get a new Pokemon right before a tournament and advance this far without changing the Pokemon she uses like everyone else has. Plus, it would be even more ridiculous if a Dratini could beat Georgia's Beartic and Dawn's Mamoswine. The idea of Dragonite beating them is at least more believable given its moveset and how overpowered Dragonite tend to be in the anime. They would have had to make Iris lose in the first round to make it work.

I am a bit surprised with the title since it makes me think that the tournament could be only three episodes long due to the last battle bit. Though, that's probably for dramatic effect, but that would be surprising if that happens.

And that is the exact thing that everyone is bugged out about. Of course no one minds Dragonite personally, why would they do that? What they're bothered about is how Iris gets it right before a tournament.

The reason I said it's about Dragonite and not Iris is because I thought I remember you defending Dragonite's capture in your post I first replied too. Im too lazy to go back and look..maybe I just goofed idk lol but yeah I was just making a point. Or trying to.

''She has no business having''? Oh, of course not. It's not like she's training to be a Dragon Master or anything, that was some other female protagonist. Misty, was it?

NO not Misty, im her biggest fanboy pretty sure she specialized in water pokemon!:p I know good and well Iris is trying to become a Dragon Master. Im just saying giving her a high leveled Dragonite is a stretch. I would be much happier if she caught a Dratini and raised it like most trainers do. Im speculating, but I doubt Cynthia caught Garchomp as a high leveled Garchomp. Im sure she raised it from a small normal Gible to the great pokemon it is. Do you see what im saying? There is nothing that screams Dragon Master about catching a high level Dragonite you can't even control and blowing through your competition with it.

Jokes aside, I'm not a fan of Iris getting a Dragonite either, but I'm not going to start bashing her character just because the writers decided to give it to her, at least not until I've actually seen what the future holds in store for the two of them. As of yet, we haven't seen a single single thing from the two of them, only some mere previews and scans, and I'm not going to judge someone before I've even seen the episodes they're being featured in. I would completely understand if someone would be displeased with the way they’re being treated after that the episodes have aired, because then it’s simply a matter of your own personal preference. But now the episodes really haven’t aired yet, have they? So, saying that Dragonite comes on a silver platter really isn’t the formulation I’d be using. Especially not as this tournament really won’t help Iris in any way to reach her goal of becoming a Dragon Master faster. I mean, it’s not like the Togekiss incident, where Togekiss was given to Dawn right before Grand Festival, a tournament that decides if she’s going to become a Top-Coordinator or not.

No the episodes haven't aired yet. The point you're making is completely valid. Consider this though, I only watch the dub..I won't see this episode until much later on in the year. So, can you blame me for speculating based off of what I see from previews?haha And here's what I see. Iris gets a strong Dragonite one episode prior to the tournament, and makes it to what we can assume is the semi-finals..that's what I see and I don't like what I see so far, that's all. Oh believe me Iris getting Dragonite isn't the only reason I bash her I promise you that. I would happily explain to you why but I don't want to go off topic.

If this was like a ‘’Dragon Tournament’’ of some sort, like the Whirlpool Cup, I’d understand the hatred fully, as that’d mean that Iris would be given a direct short-cut to becoming a Dragon Master just like that. This isn’t a Dragon Tournament, however. From the looks of things, this only seems like a bit more glorified Don Tournament, and Iris has won already, which made absolutely no difference in her life, so why would this do?

No, its not a Dragon tournament. The reward for winning this tournament however is big. You get a crack at the Champion of Unova to challenge him for his tittle. While everything prior to that match might seem minuscule, big picture it isn't. That's where my 'hatred' is coming from. Based off of my interprutation, no matter how much you might disagree, it's looking to ME like she's getting free passes to become a Champion. Maybe im wrong. I hope I am.

Yeah, I know that Iris definitely does not deserve to win this tournament, since it really should be focusing on Trip and Ash’s rivalry, but even if she did she still wouldn’t have taken a step further towards reaching her goal, would she? So, unless it’s a tournament that can help her further advance into becoming a Dragon Master, I don’t really see the problem. Sure, she should let Trainers like Ash and Trip to make it to the final as they, unlike her, actually can gain something in their rivalry by making it all the way to the final.

I'll let my above point stand.

That’s exaggerating. We all know perfectly well that Iris won’t beat Alder. That just won’t happen, at least not if he’s giving it his all, and not fighting the way he did with Ash in their last battle. No matter how powerful a wild Pokémon is, I doubt it can beat a Pokémon trained by a Champion.

Haha thing is, I agree with you that it SHOULDN'T be enough to beat Alder's pokemon..but I just don't know. Im not going further, i'll just leave it at I hope you're right and im wrong on that.

What does the fact that she has no badges have to with anything? And yes, they’ve been questionable in your opinion, but definitely not in mine. The only battle that I personally thought could have gone either way was the battle she had with Burgundy. But, that’s just my opinion.
And here we go again, with Dragonite being given to Iris on a ‘’silver platter’’. I can’t really tell if it was or not, since y’know, I haven’t watched the episode yet.

Because badges aren't 1 or 2 tournaments where anyone can get on a winning streak and get lucky. Badges are earned after strategically out witting and overpowering qualified opponents. Im not comparing Don tournament participants and gym leaders..im just saying I have more respect for someone with badges than I do someone with a handful of tournament wins. That's just me. Yes, yes, they have. I firmly believe Excadrill had no business defeating Pickachu (despite Pika's disadvantage) and Axew's win over Luke's Golett just..no that one didn't sit right with me either. You have your opinion and I have mine I guess:P Well from what we know she got him ONE episode before the tourny..sorry that thing fell in her lap IMO haha

Lol no, it’s all about Dragonite. Of course it is about Iris. However, no matter what character Dragonite would’ve been given to, it still would’ve been awful writing, just the way it is with Iris. That is, of course, if Dragonite himself doesn’t bring forth future challenges and struggles for the character that may justify its capture slightly. If Iris actually trains Dragonite, and if Dragonite actually proves to be beneficial for both Axew and Iris’ development in the future, then I’d be completely fine with it. But as of now, when I don’t know a thing, I can’t decide if it’s good or bad.

Im just saying im not a Dragonite hater, yeah lets go with that since I can't remember why I was defending Dragonite lol. I agree with that 100%..and ya know, you're probably right about Dragonite being beneficial to Iris, Axew, and Iris' dream/goal long term. My thing is FOR NOW it seems like there is no struggle, Iris just kinda out of the blue gets a powerful Dragonite and catches a winning streak with it. I know im not the only one that feels that way, too. Somone said this earlier but take Ash's Charizard for example, it cost him a league match and many other matches. Long term however, it became his biggest power house. I don't see that struggle with Iris so far though, you're right though let's see what happens.

I like her character. I like her character a lot. However, there have been a couple of times where I too have been feeling unsure and not been satisfied at all. (Axew learning Giga Impact and this whole Dragonite thing are two examples) Although I don’t really judge character for their accomplishments, training and effort, I judge a character for their ability to keep me entertained.

Cool! I see what you're saying and I agree completely. Like I said somewhere above this capture and implied win streak is not the only reason I don't like her. Won't go into why. Yeah no I agree though. Besides Ash and Gary, Misty was my favorite character and she didn't really do anything besides be a coach for Ash, she kept me entertained though!haha

Originally Posted by Shinneth

Even if it was just a Dratini, it would be awfully suspect of Iris to get it literally one episode before a major tournament and then primarily use that Pokemon when she has other more experienced options, because more and more it looks like Iris is the only one advancing in this tournament who is sticking with just one Pokemon when she could have been alternating the whole time. Given Dragonite's issues, you'd think she WOULD alternate, but nope. All made even more bullshit that Iris is trampling down Ice-types. If she faces Trip next, I won't be surprised if he uses Vanilluxe just to maintain that running theme. Ash has no Unova Ice-types, so if the CotD doesn't either, then my bets are on her facing Trip next. :P And just like Dawn, I don't really think Trip's passion for Alder makes his Vanilluxe a more difficult opponent for Dragonite than Georgia's Beartic, meaning he would be doomed.

No, it's perfectly reasonable for her to try to use it again. (and we also don't know most attending character's Pokemon. All we know from Ash and Trip is that they're using Bug Lady and Grass Snake)
She's using this tourney as a chance to train with Dragonite and "get in sync" with it. Just like she did with Emogle ... and just like Ash did with Palpitoad. If she cared more about winning then getting in sync with her Pokemon then she could have simply RELIED ON EXCADRILL FOR BOTH THIS AND THE FIRST DON TOURNEY! She knew Emogle was lazy, so why risk it pulling a volt-s in the middle of a battle in the Don Tourney? Same with Axew ... it was still a baby at the time, with lil mobility with only one attack that could be used, why risk it failing when she could use Excadrill? Maybe so that she could work with it and get over this hump? Maybe so that Axew could get some real battles under it's belt and get it's stuff together? Same thing here ... why use a Dragonite with a 4X weakness to ICE used on TWO ICE TYPE Pokemon when she has Excadrill, who has both a fighting type and steel type move and no lop-sided weakness to the Pokemon it's battling? It tied with the Bear once ... after years of not fighting. It should be able to do much better now. And I don't think Dawn's Mamaswine would do any better than that bear against him.
She's doing it so that she can fix this problem and train with him.

Bug Lady

Um, Leavanny's a dude.

Ash using one of his four neglected reserves in a four roung tournament makes me think that he'll use the other three as well.