PREVIEW: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!! - Page 25

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Thread: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatLover View Post
    Do any of you ever notice you're over thinking things. The writers aren't writing to please you, they're not writing for people who critique the validity of things such as mid-battle evolutions. They're writing a children's television show. Their main goal with these evolutions is to make them look cool and dramatic. Having ash chug along battling wild Pokemon to get his team to evolve has no suspense, and is overall pretty uninteresting, especially if you're the age of their target demographic. Having him up against a wall and then having his Pokemon pull out the win with a dramatic evolution or new move is exciting. It's hardly something new.
    Not directed at you GreatLover, but more at people I've met in real life....the pokemon label does not mean that this is always a kid's show. I really doubt that alot of kids would understand really well the moral issues and battling problems Ash encountered during his time in the Battle Frontier or in Sinnoh. :o For most kids, I really believe, success is directly correlated to hard work. As long as you work hard, you definitely make it through. I really think it's only when you grow older that you see that that's not always true...not only do you have to work hard, you also have to correlate that to what your personal strengths are, and what you're really capable of doing-you have to really know yourself, I guess. There was so much emphasis the last few generations on Ash developing a personal battle style, and really what he was willing to do to win. It's really amazing to think about what Ash actually did at the Sinnoh League for his battle against Shinji-he jeopardized that battle in a way by using his Sinnoh team, which had hands down lost to Shinji's preplanned team earlier. It didn't cost him because, in my opinion, Shinji didn't catch on that Ash was doing that until midway through the battle. But it was really clear: if Ash didn't win that way, then he wanted nothing to do with winning. It really meant that much to him. :> I honestly think that type of idea is an adultish idea; I personally don't know many kids who could understand that beyond saying that's Ash for you. There's a really valid argument to be made that this show was meant for olderish viewers for the majority of the last few years. The effort was definitely there the last few regions to write something pretty polished and send a message to the viewer about some of the problems of growing up in life, and I think it's a little harsh in a way to pretend that effort wasn't made. I really think it's a sign of how much respect there is for what the writers have accomplished the last years that others take the time to say that what's being done now doesn't have the same level of creative intensity or thematic cohesiveness.

  2. #362
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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatLover View Post
    Do any of you ever notice you're over thinking things. The writers aren't writing to please you, they're not writing for people who critique the validity of things such as mid-battle evolutions. They're writing a children's television show. Their main goal with these evolutions is to make them look cool and dramatic. Having ash chug along battling wild Pokemon to get his team to evolve has no suspense, and is overall pretty uninteresting, especially if you're the age of their target demographic. Having him up against a wall and then having his Pokemon pull out the win with a dramatic evolution or new move is exciting. It's hardly something new.

    When I was 8 and watching Ash's battle with Mandy, was I upset that a Pokemon with just about no development got a deus ex evolution? No, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world that krabby could come out of nowhere to win the battle. Stop pretending the writers are trying to cater to you, because it couldn't be further from the truth.
    The best children's television is written so that the adults who watch with their children can be entertained by the story details while the children can watch the on screen flash. It doesn't have to be either or - good writing can do both. No one is suggesting Ash needs to go grinding - but the show is devoid of the trainer battles and build up to big battles that was common in the previous regions. Even battling Team Rocket over and over was at least a way of trying out different tactics and using moves effectively.

    You can make things interesting and exciting to children without ruining the storyline of characters. Tepig's evolution was well developed and justified, but it didn't make it any less exciting for viewers than something like Roggenrola evolving out of nowhere to win from behind.

    Mid battle evolutions and coming from behind to win can certainly be exciting, but only when it's infrequent. Even with Krabby there was a slight storyline over the competition with the other Krabby that Gary caught, Ash's tiny Krabby coming in and being really powerful despite being small is a good story.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Dragonite is cheap, and overpowered. Getting it right before a tournament, having it's issue solved in two episodes after it was established....is far more cheap than Krokorok evolving. I don't what the issue is here. The fact of the matter is they gave Iris a Pokemon much stronger than MOST of his, without any training done on her part.
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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    Dragonite is cheap, and overpowered. Getting it right before a tournament, having it's issue solved in two episodes after it was established....is far more cheap than Krokorok evolving. I don't what the issue is here. The fact of the matter is they gave Iris a Pokemon much stronger than MOST of his, without any training done on her part.
    We don't know if its problems are solved. Who knows, maybe it will get mad at Iris since it lose the first battle it was actually listening to her XD We'll have to see.

    Say what you will about Dragonite, but Ash and his middle of the battle evolutions are becoming too unrealistic and show he's just getting lucky.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Driller678

    Say what you will about Dragonite, but Ash and his middle of the battle evolutions are becoming too unrealistic and show he's just getting lucky.
    Except mid-battle evolutions, and learning new moves in battle are never considered as such. That's mostly the fandom(I myself am guilty of this) calling it a foul. You don't often see characters complaining and whining about losing because of their opponent learning new moves in battle, or evolutions luck now do you? Did Skyka whine about Ash only winning through a "luck" evolution when he beat her? No. Or Paul bitchin at Ash that his Staravia evolved in the Poke-ringer? Nope.

    As I said, if Ash were still not "good" enough he would still have lost to Skyla, and Clay for example. It happened with Paul were he still lost despite evolution, Misty still lost to Ash after Poliwag evovled, as did Khroy/Lyray losing to Ash/Dawn after Khory's Totodile evolved.

    Oh, and it's confirmed Dragonite is fully obeying Iris by this point, just two episodes after it's capture.
    Last edited by Masurao; 10th August 2012 at 08:00 PM.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    Oh, and it's confirmed Dragonite is fully obeying Iris by this point, just two episodes after it's capture.
    Welp, there goes any depth this whole thing may have had. What was the point of it not listening if it didn't change anything in the end? I mean, even as far back as Kanto, Ash actually paid the consequences for Charizard not listening.
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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Oh, and it's confirmed Dragonite is fully obeying Iris by this point, just two episodes after it's capture.
    And THANK ARCEUS FOR THIS! I'm glad that Iris is going to take action instead of lazing off till some wild Pokemon attacks it from which she saves it just so it could be pointlessly dragged on. Two episodes are enough. Cynthia is going to help too :D. Yay for another bad formula of this show being flushed down the drain~~~!

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Dragonite listens to her, and they lose. How ironic.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Just realize this episode'll be airing while I'm enroute to Kilimanjaro Airport. Looks like I won't be able to catch Waruvile's evolution until I'm back in the states in December. By that time the entire league'll probably be over.

    I agree it's kinda disappointing Dragonite's disobedience lasts so short. I highly doubt it listening to her won't be too convincing. I tend to forget just how long Charizard's lasted, but I think his was done best. Ash really had to struggle with Charizard for a long time. Doesn't look like that's the case for Iris.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatLover View Post
    Do any of you ever notice you're over thinking things. The writers aren't writing to please you, they're not writing for people who critique the validity of things such as mid-battle evolutions. They're writing a children's television show. Their main goal with these evolutions is to make them look cool and dramatic. Having ash chug along battling wild Pokemon to get his team to evolve has no suspense, and is overall pretty uninteresting, especially if you're the age of their target demographic. Having him up against a wall and then having his Pokemon pull out the win with a dramatic evolution or new move is exciting. It's hardly something new.

    When I was 8 and watching Ash's battle with Mandy, was I upset that a Pokemon with just about no development got a deus ex evolution? No, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world that krabby could come out of nowhere to win the battle. Stop pretending the writers are trying to cater to you, because it couldn't be further from the truth.
    I get what you're saying but Krabby's little victory back then. But that was years ago. The writting for Pokemon development has been and should be ten times better now. And even though this is a kids show, kids today can tell the difference with good material and BS.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by G013M View Post
    Krokkodile is the Deus Ex Machina
    A Deus ex Machina is a previously unintroduced element in a narrative that solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a contrived way. Waruvile was introduced before, we saw him be a strong wild Pokémon, saw him battle Pikachu a few times, evolve, tag battle with Pikachu, be caught, get beaten in a gym battle, train, beat a Gym Leader's main Pokémon afterwards, and now it's pushed against the wall, evolves and gets another win. It's setting appropriate (i.e. Pokémon get stronger and evolve), it's building on elements introduced previously in the narrative (i.e. Waruvile battled and got stronger) and it actually makes sense with the character (i.e. Waruvile was always portrayed as a Pokémon who wanted to battle strong opponents an win against them, always trying to reach their level of strength).

    The idea of evolution or a new move being learned in a trainer battle automatically being cheap completely ignores everything that came before the battle, the way the battle is written, the characters in question, etc. Here the evolution is not used to circumvent development, but rather is the result of it, it's the logical next step for Waruvile. It's not the result of luck, but what we've seen so far from Waruvile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    Yet the same Pokemon is supposed to be believably defeated by a Krokorok that couldn't defeat a Swoobat and has had one training episode since.
    That argument makes no sense at all. First of all, if the outcome of every battle had to be determined solely by past results, it would not only be boring, but it would completely negate the idea of Pokémon and characters developing. You're completely evacuating what happened before and since that loss, how both battles went, what different challenges both Pokémon present, and saying, "He couldn't defeat X so it's cheap it defeats Y". We've seen Waruvile get good wins, and we've seen him get stronger since he started and since that loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    As I said, even with strategy it would have been a stretch for any of Ash's current Pokemon to beat Iris' Dragonite.
    While I understand the sentiment, I disagree with it. That sentiment comes from two things. First, the writers' unwillingness to show Iris as being flawed. Honestly, her battle style has always been to continuously attack and overpower her opponents while having none of their attacks cause any damage cause her Pokémon are so much stronger than everyone else's. It's boring, especially as it could very easily be turned into a good storyline in which the fighting style actually becomes a problem, in which rushing and trying to overpower your opponent doesn't work if your opponent is faster, if your opponent is smarter, if your opponent uses status moves, if there's actually some more thought being put into the writing of a battle beyond attack spammage. Second, I think there's a just a lack of imagination from the fandom. I think BW has lowered the standard so much as far as writing battles, that there's this general idea that a good battle couldn't be possible without Satoshi's Pokémon overpowering Kairyu.

    Take Tsutarja, it's a smaller target, it's fast so it can dodge attacks more easily. We saw it use something that ressemble Hikari's spin technique in its debut so Satoshi could have called on that. Kairyu might be powerful but if you can't hit your target, you're Dragon rushing into the ground. Plus, the spin could be combined offensively with Leaf Blade as Pachirisu did with Super Fang against Urara's Gablias. Using Vine whip to dodge attacks. Using Leaf Storm as a Counter Shield, etc. Maybe even throw in a new move learned in there to replace Attract like Mirror Coat and you have not only have a battle that's believable, but visually interesting and engaging. I would like to see the writers once again be not obvious in their writings for battle and actually make the Pokémon and their attacks so much more unique than what we've seen. I think a great deal of Satoshi and Hikari's Pokémon could and should have won against Kairyu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    The best children's television is written so that the adults who watch with their children can be entertained by the story details while the children can watch the on screen flash. It doesn't have to be either or - good writing can do both. No one is suggesting Ash needs to go grinding - but the show is devoid of the trainer battles and build up to big battles that was common in the previous regions. Even battling Team Rocket over and over was at least a way of trying out different tactics and using moves effectively.

    You can make things interesting and exciting to children without ruining the storyline of characters. Tepig's evolution was well developed and justified, but it didn't make it any less exciting for viewers than something like Roggenrola evolving out of nowhere to win from behind.

    Mid battle evolutions and coming from behind to win can certainly be exciting, but only when it's infrequent. Even with Krabby there was a slight storyline over the competition with the other Krabby that Gary caught, Ash's tiny Krabby coming in and being really powerful despite being small is a good story.
    Exactly, mid-battles evolutions and learning moves aren't implicitly bad writing. In fact, in the overwhelming majority of cases, it's something that works and adds tension and makes a battle more exciting. But bottom line is: you can do both, they aren't mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact, when you have a mid-battle evolution come from behind win that's sustained by a good story, good characterization and believable development, it actually only enhances the excitement from the battle, because the characters are more relatable, there's even more tension because there's more at stake and you just care more about the character. Here, they're doing just that with Waruvile.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    That argument makes no sense at all. First of all, if the outcome of every battle had to be determined solely by past results, it would not only be boring, but it would completely negate the idea of Pokémon and characters developing. You're completely evacuating what happened before and since that loss, how both battles went, what different challenges both Pokémon present, and saying, "He couldn't defeat X so it's cheap it defeats Y". We've seen Waruvile get good wins, and we've seen him get stronger since he started and since that loss.
    Presumably Krokrok will need to use the exact tactics against Dragonite that it used against Swoobat - it's wins and training since have been against/with a Beartic. Having not learnt any more moves since that battle, Ash will basically be left to rely on the same things as he did against Swoobat, try and make Stone Edge hit and make attempts to jump up and Bite/Crunch Dragonite - perhaps combined with using Dig defensively.

    Krokorok has some basic weaknesses and restrictions in its battling against flying Pokemon, ones that haven't been resolved or even considered since. It couldn't defeat Swoobat for a good reason.

    Edit - Should add that I don't see an issue with Krokorok evolving (and presumably it will learn Outrage upon evolving which will make the win justified) - I see an issue that the evolution of one of Ash's Pokemon mid battle fundamentally changes the outlook for the battle and that Ash's choice of Pokemon isn't on the basis of 'perhaps it could evolve mid battle'. Ash chooses Krokorok as a Krokorok with its current moves, because of its weaknesses and inflexibility in fighting flying Pokemon, it's a choice that's made that is likely to result in defeat.

    The situation could have been made better by a previous episode training Krokorok to deal with Flying Pokemon, learning another long distance move, having a tactic in battle other than 'hope stone edge hits'.

    If these battles weren't one on one and Ash was sending Krokorok out first in the knowledge that he had a backup it wouldn't matter all that much. This evolution seemingly has to happen to overcome several massive flaws in how this tournament and Dragonite are being written.
    Last edited by Moe; 11th August 2012 at 08:27 PM.
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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Really I have no problem about Ash's Pokemon evolving in midbattle because it is show that Ash's Pokemon has the will power to continue on even when the odds are agianst them. I can said that all of Ash's Pokemon that evolve in the gym battle wants to show there strength to Ash and their oppentents and their will to never give up for their trainer.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    It's not like it's the first time it's ever happened either. Ash's Pokemon have even learned new moves in mid-battle since as far back as Johto.

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    Default Re: BW92: Ash, Iris, and Shootie! The Last Battle!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    It's not like it's the first time it's ever happened either. Ash's Pokemon have even learned new moves in mid-battle since as far back as Johto.
    When in Johto? My memory fails me
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