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Thread: BW091: Power Battle! Iris vs. Hikari!

  1. #256

    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by ivantuga2 View Post
    I was clearly talking about Tunbear having a 4x type advantage. Manmoo has a 2x type advantage.
    It's still a 4x type advantage; there is absolutely no difference between the two situations. But it's a moot point since I don't believe the anime has ever acknowledged that quadrupled type advantages exist.

  2. #257
    Registered User Chiplet's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by ivantuga2 View Post
    Probably, but that doesn't mean a trainer would necessarily win. We didn't even see many battles between trainers and coordinators. The one you brought up (where Hikari lost against Sumomo) happened because Hikari was going through a depression stage, and nothing was working out, while the Gym Leader desperately needed a win (even if they were in the same situation, Sumomo needed that win more than Hikari, since two losses in a row would crush her spirit of continuing as a Gym Leader, while it wouldn't help much in Hikari's case, who needed a defeat to learn for the upcoming Mikuri Cup). Plus, Hikari has undoubtedly grown since that battle.
    As you yourself stated, Maylene was also going through a depression. Even if she needed that win more than Dawn did it was clearly displayed that she was the stronger trainer to me, wasn't it to you? We saw how Dawn able to do some unusual and rather effective counters in the battle against Maylene, but those counters didn't help her but putting Maylene in a temporary state of surprise, as she isn't used to those kind of battles. Only Ambipom's Double Hit was able to defeat Maylene's Meditite, due to Ambipom being a rather powerful Pokémon as it has been trained by Ash previously.

    In the battle between Lucario and Piplup Dawn did make some great counters, but to me it was quite clear that Lucario was having the advantage throughout the whole battle, and it didn't even look exhausted at all after that it had defeated Piplup. Doesn't that prove anything to you? To me, it does. Sure, it was Dawn's first gym battle, but it definitely wasn't her first battle, and she already had showed that she had experience with battling due to her contests and some other battles she had gone through during her journey. Yet she wasn't able to defeat Maylene, but only managed to defeat one Pokémon when Maylene actually had three.

    Honestly, Doryuzu isn't that impressive when you consider that it went a long time without battling. It uses a brute force approach which can only get you so far. No doubt Langley's Beartic is strong, but can you say with much assurance that Langley would've defeated Hikari had they met? At the very least Hikari wouldn't go down without a fight. I repeat, contest battle's techniques and their unpredictable approach can surprise when the odds seem skewed in favor of the trainer. Langley is strong, but let's not make hasty conclusions.
    Excadrill is definitely strong. Maybe not as strong as it was before its hiatus, that might be right, but it's definitely strong. It is a Pokémon that is known for its tremendous power in its offensive style of battling, and it clearly displayed those skills in the battle against Scolipede and Beartic. Ash's Snivy is without a doubt a powerful Pokémon, but Ash himself stated that Scolipede was in a completely other league in comparision with Snivy. Yet Excadrill was easily able to beast him, and even though it had a clear type advantage Excadrill still beat Scolipede easily.

    No. I can't say that Langley would've defeated Dawn for sure, I can't. But, what I can say though is that when the both of them are going up against a Dragonite, and with the fact that Langley is a Dragon Buster in mind, I can definitely say that it'd be quite strange if Langley who's specializing in defeating Dragon-types wouldn't be able to beat Dragonite while Dawn was. Don't you agree?

    What I mean is that just because a stupid move was made (Tunbear losing against Kairyu) doesn't mean that a slightly less idiotic one should happen again (Manmoo losing against Kairyu).
    If we were to follow by logic, Dawn would lose too. How is it less idiotic? Georgia should've had a way bigger advantage in a battle against a Dragon-type, while it to Dawn should've been just like a regular battle.

    I was clearly talking about Tunbear having a 4x type advantage. Manmoo has a 2x type advantage.
    How does Mamoswine have 2x type advantage? Shouldn't it also have a 4x type advanage? You do realize that they're both Ice-types and thus should have the same advantage against Dragonite?

  3. #258
    Cascade Trainer Mikuri's Avatar Bulbapedia Junior Administrator
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    I agree with Piplup, Coordinators are not weaker than regular Trainers. If I remember correctly, Kenny was eliminated from the Grand Festival because Empoleon's attack was too powerful and Floatzel failed to handle it. This shows that a Coordinator's Pokémon can be strong and have strong attacks.
    We have seen that Contest techniques may confuse people not accustomed to them, and Iris has never seen a Contest in her life. Dawn winning would be acceptable.

    And no, Iris and Dawn do not share the same amount of experience. Iris was in the Village of Dragons using Excadrill to defeat defenseless Patrat in the forest. When she was fighting a real opponent (Drayden), she failed miserably to understand the feelings of her Pokémon and lost badly. That's her experience.
    And use the battle against Maylene as an example is weird to me, first because it happened long ago, Dawn has evolved a lot since that battle, and second because Ash (a regular Trainer) also failed to defeat Maylene.

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    Admin Iteru's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Actually we had seen Iris defeat previous trainers before battling Drayden so that argument doesn't work.

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    Registered User ivantuga2's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    As you yourself stated, Maylene was also going through a depression. Even if she needed that win more than Dawn did it was clearly displayed that she was the stronger trainer to me, wasn't it to you? We saw how Dawn able to do some unusual and rather effective counters in the battle against Maylene, but those counters didn't help her but putting Maylene in a temporary state of surprise, as she isn't used to those kind of battles. Only Ambipom's Double Hit was able to defeat Maylene's Meditite, due to Ambipom being a rather powerful Pokémon as it has been trained by Ash previously.

    In the battle between Lucario and Piplup Dawn did make some great counters, but to me it was quite clear that Lucario was having the advantage throughout the whole battle, and it didn't even look exhausted at all after that it had defeated Piplup. Doesn't that prove anything to you? To me, it does. Sure, it was Dawn's first gym battle, but it definitely wasn't her first battle, and she already had showed that she had experience with battling due to her contests and some other battles she had gone through during her journey. Yet she wasn't able to defeat Maylene, but only managed to defeat one Pokémon when Maylene actually had three.
    Yes, Sumomo was shown to be stronger, but like I said, Hikari has also grown from that experience since, like the recent match with an experienced Dent showed, and Sumomo knowing that psychologically she absolutely needed to win that battle was shown very clearly. In fact, it was Hikari who talked to her and explained that she had the same problem, and understood that she could help give her a psychological boost by battling her. Now, I'm not saying Hikari didn't put effort in that match, but deep inside she KNEW that putting a decent match against the Gym Leader while having her win would help the friend regain confidence. Plus, the most dangerous are those that will put EVERYTHING to win and restore confidence and some reputation that they have lost. Hikari didn't need to win that battle, as it wasn't a Contest, but if she could only put some effort and learn from it for a future Contest while at the same time helping a friend in need, then all the better.

    Excadrill is definitely strong. Maybe not as strong as it was before its hiatus, that might be right, but it's definitely strong. It is a Pokémon that is known for its tremendous power in its offensive style of battling, and it clearly displayed those skills in the battle against Scolipede and Beartic. Ash's Snivy is without a doubt a powerful Pokémon, but Ash himself stated that Scolipede was in a completely other league in comparision with Snivy. Yet Excadrill was easily able to beast him, and even though it had a clear type advantage Excadrill still beat Scolipede easily.
    Considering that Satoshi's Tsutarja doesn't get that much screentime and that it was captured at the beginning of BW, it didn't have that much of a chance against a more experienced Doryuzu, who on top of all had a type advantage. Doryuzu is strong to some extent, but let's not act (or make seem like) that it could sweep Hikari's more experienced team compared to Satoshi's current one (it's also true that her skills weren't reset, but actually developed further). Hikari DIDN'T start a new journey, so her familiar line-up, plus her experience with Contests and its possible match-changing techniques would give a run for Doryuzu's money (though Kairyu would be more difficult).

    No. I can't say that Langley would've defeated Dawn for sure, I can't. But, what I can say though is that when the both of them are going up against a Dragonite, and with the fact that Langley is a Dragon Buster in mind, I can definitely say that it'd be quite strange if Langley who's specializing in defeating Dragon-types wouldn't be able to beat Dragonite while Dawn was. Don't you agree?
    Look at the answer right below.

    If we were to follow by logic, Dawn would lose too. How is it less idiotic? Georgia should've had a way bigger advantage in a battle against a Dragon-type, while it to Dawn should've been just like a regular battle.
    Except I put the logic not on the arbitrarily decided result of the battle, but whether such win is justified in the show, looking at the perspectives of the battle itself and not trying to look for reasons outside of it, which by themselves aren't even justified. Kairyu's win over Tunbear is unjustified, you admitted it yourself, so Kairyu's win over Manmoo would be unjustified as well, not more justified "to make it consistent" because of the previous battle using a BS outcome as well. I don't really know how more clearly I can explain this. I see where you're coming from, but maybe we could agree to disagree?

    How does Mamoswine have 2x type advantage? Shouldn't it also have a 4x type advanage? You do realize that they're both Ice-types and thus should have the same advantage against Dragonite?
    Yes, Manmoo is partly an Ice-type, but it's also a Ground-type, which I think has been stated sometimes in the anime to change the resistance for other attack's elements, for better or worse (in this case the latter, but it doesn't always apply, especially in BW, so we don't really know). In fact, you're only helping to advance my point. Since both Tunbear and Manmoo are at least partly Ice-types, isn't that all the more reason to consider Manmoo going down as unjustified as Tunbear doing the same?
    Last edited by ivantuga2; 19th July 2012 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Yet another grammar mistake -_-

  6. #261
    Cascade Trainer Mikuri's Avatar Bulbapedia Junior Administrator
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Iteru View Post
    Actually we had seen Iris defeat previous trainers before battling Drayden so that argument doesn't work.
    Yeah I know that, Drayden was the prize of the competition, and Iris obviously had to defeat other Trainers before reaching him. But we don't know how experienced these Trainers were, and they did not seem to be very strong. But let's say they were good, Iris would have won a small competition in a small village and the Club Battle, while Dawn was runner-up in the Sinnoh Grand Festival. They definitely do not have the same amount of experience.

  7. #262

    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    So Ash and Dawn tied in today's episode. I hope that no one seriously expects them to have a tournament battle with a clear outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikuri View Post
    They definitely do not have the same amount of experience.
    Neither did May and Dawn when they battled. If Iris were using Excadrill here, I don't think it would be at all unbelievable for her to win.

  8. #263
    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    I don't believe the anime has ever acknowledged that quadrupled type advantages exist.
    It might be dub-only, but it was vaguely referenced in the Ash/Skyla gym battle when Pikachu and Swanna were pitted against each other. Iris said something along the lines of "Water and Flying-types are weak to Electric moves, and since Swanna's a Water and Flying-type Pokemon, that move's (can't remember if it was Electro Ball or Thunderbolt) going to do tons of damage!"

    I would like for someone in the show to actually say quadruple damage in some form when discussing these type match-ups during a battle; you'd think that would build excitement for the viewers when such a thing is pointed out to them. Just saying "super-effective" for a 4x weakness feels like that aspect is being downplayed.

    Then again, if Dragonite were to win this battle, maybe they'd wanna downplay that detail so viewers who aren't already immediately aware of the 4x weakness don't call bullshit on it winning, since this would be its second time overcoming a 4x type disadvantage while not being under Iris' ownership for very long and obviously not being on the same page as her, unless some DEM magic comes into play here. :P

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  9. #264
    Stars, Rainbows and Stars Chronos's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    I am really surprised that people think Dawn is on the same level as Georgia just because she's a Coordinator. News flash, coordinators battle, too. They just have a drastically different battle style, which should actually help them, rather than hurt them. A lot of regular trainers have no clue about how contest battles work, so that would give a Coordinator a great advantage, I would think. Dawn already has the upper-hand on that factor alone, but Iris could still win, simply because she has the almighty Dragonite in her possession now.

    That might be one reason why Iris is being portrayed as the underdog in this situation. Dawn is probably confusing her with her battling style, which makes sense, since Iris has likely never seen a contest. Then again, Dawn could be going for the offensive approach here without all the flashiness, but I don't know why she would do that. I think she would fare better using her contest-style. Regardless, I don't think we should say Dawn and Georgia are comparable in experience at all.

  10. #265
    Registered User Chiplet's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Yes, Sumomo was shown to be stronger, but like I said, Hikari has also grown from that experience since, like the recent match with an experienced Dent showed, and Sumomo knowing that psychologically she absolutely need to win that battle was shown very clearly. In fact, it was Hikari who talked to her and explained that she had the same problem, and understood that she could help give her a psychological boost by battling her. Now, I'm not saying Hikari didn't put effort in that match, but deep inside she KNEW that putting a decent match against the Gym Leader while having her win would help the friend regain confidence. Plus, the most dangerous are those that will put EVERYTHING to win and restore confidence and some reputation that they have lost. Hikari didn't need to win that battle, as it wasn't a Contest, but if she could only put some effort and learn from it for a future Contest while at the same time helping a friend in need, then all the better.
    The fact is, whether you like it or not, that even though Maylene needed that win, I’m still sure that Dawn didn’t hold back just because of that. Dawn was clearly doing her best in that battle, really giving it her all, and regardless of the depression state she had previously been shown to go through she still definitely gave it her all. That I thought was proved when she used those different contest techniques, like the spin with Buneary, Ambipom’s Swift etc.
    Dawn wasn’t holding back because Maylene needed that win, she was giving it her all. If she did hold back I’m sure that she would’ve like have thought for herself something similar to ‘’alright, I mustn’t win this’’ or w/e. And if she did hold back she wouldn’t have showed of such willpower and determination, which she clearly did.

    If anything, Maylene should’ve been battling worse than she usually do, due to just have gone through such a devastating loss to Paul. She should be the one who didn’t give it her all in that battle, if we were to follow by that logic, because she was starting to doubt herself.

    Regardless of the emotions flying around, Dawn would never have won that battle, and she wouldn’t have made it further than to Lucario. And Lucario wasn’t even exhausted once he was finished with Piplup, which proves that regardless of Dawn’s determined and strong effort she hadn’t caused too much damage on it.

    Considering that Satoshi's Tsutarja doesn't get that much screentime and that it was captured at the beginning of BW, it didn't have that much of a chance against a more experienced Doryuzu, who on top of all had a type advantage. Doryuzu is strong to some extent, but let's not act (or make seem like) that it could sweep Hikari's more experienced team compared to Satoshi's current one (it's also true that her skills weren't reset, but actually developed further). Hikari DIDN'T start a new journey, so her familiar line-up, plus her experience with Contests and its possible match-changing techniques would give a run for Doryuzu's money (though Kairyu would be more difficult).
    The screentime that it had recived before that battle it had against Scolipede didn’t matter much. When Ash caught Snivy she showed of some really, really impressive moves, like Leaf Storm, Leaf Blade and Attract. A regular Snivy surely doesn’t know those kind of moves if it’s just new to battling. Not even Trip’s Snivy could use those moves, but instead had Leaf Storm and Tackle in its possession.

    I didn’t say that Excadrill could sweep Dawn’s team, you’re missing my point. I’m saying that Excadrill can go toe-to-toe with Beartic. A Pokémon that in a battle against Dragonite should’ve had a way bigger advantage than Dawn’s Mamoswine, this due to its trainers knowledge about Dragon-types.
    I’m not comparing Excadrill to Dawn’s team, and I never said that Dawn’s team couldn’t beat it, ‘cause I’m sure that Pokémon like Piplup or Togekiss would’ve been able to do so. I’m just comparing it to Beartic, and that’s it. I really have no idea what you got this from.

    I know well that Dawn isn’t a green horn trainer. I know that she has lots of experience due to her participating in so many Contests and all the training she has went through. However, what Dawn is training for isn’t to beat strong and powerful Dragon-types. And even though she surely can beat Dragon-types it isn’t her main concern, but in Georgia’s case, it is.

    I’m repeating myself, but I feel like I have to.
    Georgia is a Dragon Buster. It’s quite the new status to the animé, but she has clearly explained what the goal means. It means that her main goal is simply to bust up every Dragon-type she encounters. Thus she’s collecting Pokémon that are strong against Dragon-types, with Bisharp, Vanilluxe and Beartic being proof of that. She definitely has lots of knowledge about Dragon-types, considering that once Axew learned Outrage Georgia was the one who pointed out what move it was while the others didn’t really know, and she was clearly aware of its tremendous power and how the effect lasted for quite the while. She also easily beat that Druddigon in the battle she had against that girl in the Donamite Tournament, which only further proves that she has lots of experience with battling Dragon-types, it’s her goal, and just the way Dawn has lots of experience with Contests Georgia has lots of experience with defeating Dragon-types.

    Beartic is most likely her strongest Pokémon, as it has been seen the most out of her three currently known Pokémon. Having Beartic lose to a Dragonite, when it has a huge advantage with its Ice-types moves is a bad move to go with, at least when we know that Georgia is training to beat Dragon-types specifically. We haven’t yet seen how the battle will turn out though, so I’ll be forced to save my judgment for later. However, we also know that Dawn is at one point battling the same Dragonite, and she’s also using an Ice-type. Dawn, isn’t however, training to beat up Dragon-types specifically. She isn’t training to beat any kind of Pokémon actually, she’s just training to strengthen them (well, I guess that’s training for beating other Pokémon) and to make their moves seem more beautiful and graceful during her battles.

    If she was to beat that Dragonite with her Mamoswine while Georgia couldn’t, don’t you yourself see what a bad move that would be? It’d be like completely throwing away all of Georgia’s training, struggles, and reputation in the trash can, because while she wasn’t able to defeat the Dragon-type as a Dragon Buster with her strongest Ice-type, another trainer who isn’t even training to beat Dragon-types actually manages to beat Dragonite. Do you know see?

    It wouldn’t at all be logical, because Georgia isn’t a green horn trainer, she is powerful. And making her lose to Dragonite only for Dawn herself to beat Dragonite later on is just a bad move to go with, and if you ask me, it isn’t very logical at all.

    Except I put the logic not on the arbitrarily decided result of the battle, but whether such win is justified in the show, looking at the perspectives of the battle itself and not trying to look for reasons outside of it, which by themselves aren't even justified. Kairyu's win over Tunbear is unjustified, you admitted it yourself, so Kairyu's win over Manmoo would be unjustified as well, not more justified "to make it consistent" because of the previous battle using a BS outcome as well. I don't really know how more clearly I can explain this. I see where you're coming from, but maybe we could agree to disagree?
    And I don’t see how it would’ve been justified for her to win. I really can’t see that. And no, that's not the way I see it.

    Dragonite is an extremely powerful Pokémon, and everyone knows it. If it was able to defeat Georgia’s Beartic, who I previously mentioned has been established to be a very powerful Pokémon and Georgia’s strongest Pokémon, it must clearly wield incredible power. Beartic after all has experience with battling Dragon-types, which is its specialty. Having Dragonite to win over Mamoswine afterwards would be the only logical thing to do.

    I know that Dawn is strong, and I know that Mamoswine is strong too, but for the hundredth time Dawn isn’t training to defeat Dragon-types specifically, and neither is Mamoswine. If Dragonite could be Beartic is should logically be able to defeat Mamoswine too. I’m not saying that Mamoswine is inferior to Beartic in any way, but what I’m saying is that when it comes to battle Dragon-types Beartic clearly has the edge in the battle, as that is what it’s used to, and has been going through lots of training to be able to succeed with it too.

    Yes, Manmoo is partly an Ice-type, but it's also a Ground-type, which I think has been stated sometimes in the anime to change the resistance for other attack's elements, for better or worse (in this case the latter, but it doesn't always apply, especially in BW, so we don't really know).
    What? Has it? I don’t recalling hearing that ever before, but what I do know it that it definitely doesn’t apply for the games. It might’ve been mentioned, but that’s something that I never have heard of before.

    In fact, you're only helping to advance my point. Since both Tunbear and Manmoo are at least partly Ice-types, isn't that all the more reason to consider Manmoo going down as unjustified as Tunbear doing the same?
    As I stated before… Type advantages have several times been shown to be something that the writers really don’t take into count. It’s bad, I agree, but it’s the fact. In the games, Dragonite should be able to defeat a Beartic easily, especially if it has Multiscale as its ability, so it shouldn’t really be impossible for Dragonite to beat Beartic in the games too.

    Now, don’t get me wrong though, I’d love it if Dragonite did actually lose to Georgia in the first round, because it definitely should be able to do so due to all the facts that I mentioned previously, but as that doesn’t appear to be the case the writers would only make it even worse by making Dragonite lose to Mamoswine instead. It’s the same type matchups, but if anyone between Beartic and Mamoswine should’ve been able to defeat Dragonite it should definitely have been Bearitc. They’ll completely destroy Georgia’s character by letting Mamoswine and Dragonite win instead. That will prove to Georgia that a trainer without any experience or any specific knowledge about Dragon-types is still a stronger ‘’Dragon Buster’’ than she is, considering that she with her Ice-type, who has not been training to beat Dragon-types, was able to beat Dragonite while Georgia wasn’t. All her training would go directly to the trash can, just like that. And if you might not agree with this, then I really don’t think that I’ll be able to clarify it even further.

    I see where you're coming from, but maybe we could agree to disagree?
    That seems like the best thing to do in this case… Let’s.
    Last edited by Chiplet; 19th July 2012 at 09:13 AM. Reason: Typos... Lots of them

  11. #266
    Registered User ivantuga2's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    The fact is, whether you like it or not, that even though Maylene needed that win, I’m still sure that Dawn didn’t hold back just because of that. Dawn was clearly doing her best in that battle, really giving it her all, and regardless of the depression state she had previously been shown to go through she still definitely gave it her all. That I thought was proved when she used those different contest techniques, like the spin with Buneary, Ambipom’s Swift etc.

    Dawn wasn’t holding back because Maylene needed that win, she was giving it her all. If she did hold back I’m sure that she would’ve like have thought for herself something similar to ‘’alright, I mustn’t win this’’ or w/e. And if she did hold back she wouldn’t have showed of such willpower and determination, which she clearly did.
    I'm repeating myself, but no, I actually think Hikari didn't give 100%, but rather 85-90%, to help a friend recover from a depression that she needed absolutely to snap off from. I mean, if she gave her all, she could have risked defeating the Gym Leader (or depriving her from a win) and plummet the Gym Leader's confidence even further, while making the Black Belt even more disappointed in her. So yes, while Hikari put quite a lot of effort in that match (and even if she did give 100%, let's not forget that it was Hikari's first Gym Battle and she was going through a depression state where it's difficult to get the things clicking, and cared enough for her friend to not go all-out for a mere training battle, but which was far more important for Sumomo, who had to face Satoshi right afterwards, someone who was experienced in Gym Battles. A psychological boost prior to that would do wonders for a great battle between those two), I don't think she went all-out for a practice battle. Yes, Sumomo still won deservedly, but let's not use that battle as an indication of Hikari's current strength against pure trainers, who have just as much to fear coordinators because of their more unpredictable style. Like Callisto said, they battle too, just in a different way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    If anything, Maylene should’ve been battling worse than she usually do, due to just have gone through such a devastating loss to Paul. She should be the one who didn’t give it her all in that battle, if we were to follow by that logic, because she was starting to doubt herself.
    Like I already said, she needed that win far more than Hikari, who even was the one that proposed such battle, and that DEFINITELY played a role in who put the more effort into the match. Hikari would very likely have lost even if she gave 100%, but as I said... she has improved leaps and bounds since. 100% or not, that battle is not an indication of Hikari's current strength against pure trainers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    Regardless of the emotions flying around, Dawn would never have won that battle, and she wouldn’t have made it further than to Lucario. And Lucario wasn’t even exhausted once he was finished with Piplup, which proves that regardless of Dawn’s determined and strong effort she hadn’t caused too much damage on it.
    Answered above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    The screentime that it had recived before that battle it had against Scolipede didn’t matter much. When Ash caught Snivy she showed of some really, really impressive moves, like Leaf Storm, Leaf Blade and Attract. A regular Snivy surely doesn’t know those kind of moves if it’s just new to battling. Not even Trip’s Snivy could use those moves, but instead had Leaf Storm and Tackle in its possession.
    Point taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    I didn’t say that Excadrill could sweep Dawn’s team, you’re missing my point. I’m saying that Excadrill can go toe-to-toe with Beartic. A Pokémon that in a battle against Dragonite should’ve had a way bigger advantage than Dawn’s Mamoswine, this due to its trainers knowledge about Dragon-types.
    I’m not comparing Excadrill to Dawn’s team, and I never said that Dawn’s team couldn’t beat it, ‘cause I’m sure that Pokémon like Piplup or Togekiss would’ve been able to do so. I’m just comparing it to Beartic, and that’s it. I really have no idea what you got this from.

    I know well that Dawn isn’t a green horn trainer. I know that she has lots of experience due to her participating in so many Contests and all the training she has went through. However, what Dawn is training for isn’t to beat strong and powerful Dragon-types. And even though she surely can beat Dragon-types it isn’t her main concern, but in Georgia’s case, it is.

    I’m repeating myself, but I feel like I have to.
    Georgia is a Dragon Buster. It’s quite the new status to the animé, but she has clearly explained what the goal means. It means that her main goal is simply to bust up every Dragon-type she encounters. Thus she’s collecting Pokémon that are strong against Dragon-types, with Bisharp, Vanilluxe and Beartic being proof of that. She definitely has lots of knowledge about Dragon-types, considering that once Axew learned Outrage Georgia was the one who pointed out what move it was while the others didn’t really know, and she was clearly aware of its tremendous power and how the effect lasted for quite the while. She also easily beat that Druddigon in the battle she had against that girl in the Donamite Tournament, which only further proves that she has lots of experience with battling Dragon-types, it’s her goal, and just the way Dawn has lots of experience with Contests Georgia has lots of experience with defeating Dragon-types.

    Beartic is most likely her strongest Pokémon, as it has been seen the most out of her three currently known Pokémon. Having Beartic lose to a Dragonite, when it has a huge advantage with its Ice-types moves is a bad move to go with, at least when we know that Georgia is training to beat Dragon-types specifically. We haven’t yet seen how the battle will turn out though, so I’ll be forced to save my judgment for later. However, we also know that Dawn is at one point battling the same Dragonite, and she’s also using an Ice-type. Dawn, isn’t however, training to beat up Dragon-types specifically. She isn’t training to beat any kind of Pokémon actually, she’s just training to strengthen them (well, I guess that’s training for beating other Pokémon) and to make their moves seem more beautiful and graceful during her battles.

    If she was to beat that Dragonite with her Mamoswine while Georgia couldn’t, don’t you yourself see what a bad move that would be? It’d be like completely throwing away all of Georgia’s training, struggles, and reputation in the trash can, because while she wasn’t able to defeat the Dragon-type as a Dragon Buster with her strongest Ice-type, another trainer who isn’t even training to beat Dragon-types actually manages to beat Dragonite. Do you know see?

    It wouldn’t at all be logical, because Georgia isn’t a green horn trainer, she is powerful. And making her lose to Dragonite only for Dawn herself to beat Dragonite later on is just a bad move to go with, and if you ask me, it isn’t very logical at all.
    Ah, but see, it goes both ways. You say that it wouldn't be fair for Langley to lose against Kairyu if Hikari defeats it with a Manmoo. But it would be just as unfair for Hikari to lose with Manmoo against Kairyu just because the previous battle had a BS outcome. We shouldn't be trying to justify one trainer's (Langley's loss) unfair defeat with another unfair loss of another trainer (coordinator Hikari) who didn't have anything to do with it. Just because Langley's been training specifically to battle dragons doesn't mean Hikari's Manmoo is less justified to defeat Kairyu, as experience in different kinds of battles also plays a role. We could simply consider Kairyu's win against Manmoo unjustified, and hope that next time common sense prevails (did you also forget that Contest battle techniques pretty much compensate for Hikari's lack of knowledge of Dragon-type Pokémon compared to Langley?) I mean, I just don't agree at all that Hikari should lose because Langley lost unfairly. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is my stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    And I don’t see how it would’ve been justified for her to win. I really can’t see that. And no, that's not the way I see it.

    Dragonite is an extremely powerful Pokémon, and everyone knows it. If it was able to defeat Georgia’s Beartic, who I previously mentioned has been established to be a very powerful Pokémon and Georgia’s strongest Pokémon, it must clearly wield incredible power. Beartic after all has experience with battling Dragon-types, which is its specialty. Having Dragonite to win over Mamoswine afterwards would be the only logical thing to do.

    I know that Dawn is strong, and I know that Mamoswine is strong too, but for the hundredth time Dawn isn’t training to defeat Dragon-types specifically, and neither is Mamoswine. If Dragonite could be Beartic is should logically be able to defeat Mamoswine too. I’m not saying that Mamoswine is inferior to Beartic in any way, but what I’m saying is that when it comes to battle Dragon-types Beartic clearly has the edge in the battle, as that is what it’s used to, and has been going through lots of training to be able to succeed with it too.
    Like I said, just because Langley happens to know more about Dragons than Hikari doesn't mean that Kairyu losing against Manmoo would be as unjustified, for the reasons I've already stated. I'm repeating myself at this point too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    What? Has it? I don’t recalling hearing that ever before, but what I do know it that it definitely doesn’t apply for the games. It might’ve been mentioned, but that’s something that I never have heard of before.
    I think I heard it before in the anime, I just don't know where. And while it surely doesn't apply for the games, this shows how the anime tries to not be just equal to the games. I could be wrong, of course. If I am, someone correct me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    As I stated before… Type advantages have several times been shown to be something that the writers really don’t take into count. It’s bad, I agree, but it’s the fact. In the games, Dragonite should be able to defeat a Beartic easily, especially if it has Multiscale as its ability, so it shouldn’t really be impossible for Dragonite to beat Beartic in the games too.
    But they have been followed at least somewhat often prior to BW. And since Manmoo has a type advantage against Kairyu, Manmoo should win. It's really that simple. I don't care how the previous battle was unfair to Langley (which she of course didn't deserve), I just think justice should be handed in the battle against Hikari, regardless of Langley, who doesn't have anything to do with that battle. But I don't really expect it to happen, even though I really wanted that to happen. According to BW's "justice", however, type disadvantage is actually an advantage. So yeah, if we consider that as justice, then it's not surprising (and I'd even agree with you) that Hikari should lose. But not any other way...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    Now, don’t get me wrong though, I’d love it if Dragonite did actually lose to Georgia in the first round, because it definitely should be able to do so due to all the facts that I mentioned previously, but as that doesn’t appear to be the case the writers would only make it even worse by making Dragonite lose to Mamoswine instead. It’s the same type matchups, but if anyone between Beartic and Mamoswine should’ve been able to defeat Dragonite it should definitely have been Bearitc. They’ll completely destroy Georgia’s character by letting Mamoswine and Dragonite win instead. That will prove to Georgia that a trainer without any experience or any specific knowledge about Dragon-types is still a stronger ‘’Dragon Buster’’ than she is, considering that she with her Ice-type, who has not been training to beat Dragon-types, was able to beat Dragonite while Georgia wasn’t. All her training would go directly to the trash can, just like that. And if you might not agree with this, then I really don’t think that I’ll be able to clarify it even further.
    Again, I answered above. I respect your arguments, as you have brought some interesting points. I just happen to not agree with them... that's it. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong, but we both have somewhat valid reasons. I won't be answering here anymore, as I made my point clear by now.
    Last edited by ivantuga2; 19th July 2012 at 10:29 AM.

  12. #267
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by ivantuga2 View Post
    I'm repeating myself, but no, I actually think Hikari didn't give 100%, but rather 85-90%, to help a friend recover from a depression that she needed absolutely to snap off from. I mean, if she gave her all, she could have risked defeating the Gym Leader (or depriving her from a win) and plummet the Gym Leader's confidence even further, while making the Black Belt even more disappointed in her. So yes, while Hikari put quite a lot of effort in that match (and even if she did give 100%, let's not forget that it was Hikari's first Gym Battle and she was going through a depression state where it's difficult to get the things clicking, and cared enough for her friend to not go all-out for a mere training battle, but which was far more important for Sumomo, who had to face Satoshi right afterwards, someone who was experienced in Gym Battles. A psychological boost prior to that would do wonders for a great battle between those two). Yes, Sumomo still won deservedly, but let's not use that battle as an indication of Hikari's current strength against pure trainers, who have just as much to fear coordinators because of their more unpredictable style. Like Callisto said, they battle too, just in a different way.
    The thing is though, if Dawn hadn’t been giving it her all Maylene surely would’ve felt that, and still wouldn’t have been satisfied with herself. Not to mention that when Maylene called her Meditite out, Dawn was feeling stressed, she felt lots of pressure resting over her shoulder, which she even stated herself. If she didn’t give it her all she wouldn’t have been that nervous. I mean, give the episode a rewatch and then you’ll see how nervous she actually was. If that nervousness hadn’t been laying there I might would have agreed with you, but now I don’t. A person doesn’t feel nervous without a reason.

    First gym battle or not, Ash gave it his all in his gym battle, and even though he lost at first it was still clear that he gave it his all, which he pretty much does in every battle he participates in. Also, if that ‘’depression’’ that Dawn was going through during that period had affected her way of battling, don’t you think that the audience would’ve received some kind of hint that it actually was affecting her way of battling? We didn’t get a hint, nor did we see that Dawn actually was troubled by it, so I fail to see how it actually affected that battle the two of them had.

    I wasn’t using that battle as an example to display her '’current strength’’, all I did was saying how she, as a somewhat experienced coordinator with one ribbon under her belt, actually lost big time against a gym leader, and was only able to win one battle. And she won that battle with a Pokémon that had experience with battling too.

    Coordinators battle with a different style. Well, that different style of theirs’ was created to make their opponent lose points. I mean, how many times have seen the coordinator actually considered to win by defeating her opponents Pokémon? We always hear them thinking ’’the time’s almost out… I need to do something fast’’ and always look up at the points while thinking that. It’s not like we hear them thinking ’’okay, I can’t possibly win this with points now, I’d better go all offensive and just KO them.’’

    I still don’t think that coordinators are as strong as regular trainers, because if we were to put Dawn, for an example, in the league after that she had collected all of her ribbons she surely would’ve lost in the first round. I of course can’t tell by fact, but doesn’t it make sense to you that she would? I mean, she can’t win by points this time, she’ll be forced to knock the opponent’s Pokémon down. And while it’s true that she has knocked out her opponent’s Pokémon before instead of winning by points we can’t forget that the Pokémon she knocked out were a coordinator’s Pokémon, and not a regular trainer’s Pokémon. It’ll surely be much more of a challenge for her to defeat Pokémon that has been beating all eight gym leaders in a region and collected eight badges in a region.

    Regular trainers like Ash would barely have made it through the first round, because they don’t train to become a Coordinator, and to show off their Pokémon.

    Like I already said, she needed that win far more than Hikari, who even was the one that proposed such battle, and that DEFINITELY played a role in who put the more effort into the match. Hikari would very likely have lost even if she gave 100%, but as I said... she has improved leaps and bounds since. 100% or not, that battle is not an indication of Hikari's current strength against pure trainers.
    I can name several occasions when the losing trainer/coordinator has been in need of the victory far more than their opponent, but still they don’t win. Do you know the reason to that? Experience. Needing to win or not has nothing to do with it, it’s still a battle/challenge, and it still all comes down to the confidence you have in yourself and all of the experience you have in your belt. And while Dawn has been improving, don’t you think the gym leaders have been improving too? Like Roark said in his rematch with Ash, ‘’it’s not like I’ve been sitting around doing nothing while you trained.’’ (He said something similar to that, at least)

    Ah, but see, it goes both ways. You say that it wouldn't be fair for Langley to lose against Kairyu if Hikari defeats it with a Manmoo. But it would be just as unfair for Hikari to lose with Manmoo against Kairyu just because the previous battle had a BS outcome. We shouldn't be trying to justify one trainer's (Langley's loss) unfair defeat with another unfair loss of another trainer (coordinator Hikari) who didn't have anything to do with it. Just because Langley's been training specifically to battle dragons doesn't mean Hikari's Manmoo is less justified to defeat Kairyu, as experience in different kinds of battles also plays a role. We could simply consider Kairyu's win against Manmoo unjustified, and hope that next time common sense prevails (did you also forget that Contest battle techniques pretty much compensate for Hikari's lack of knowledge of Dragon-type Pokémon compared to Langley?) I mean, I just don't agree at all that Hikari should lose because Langley lost unfairly. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is my stance.
    No. It wouldn’t be unfair, it’d be logical. And just so that no one will misunderstand, and I’m not saying this to protect Iris, because she’s nothing to do with it, I’m saying this to protect Georgia, who I prefer much more than Dawn, whose development I actually care for.

    Dawn doesn’t need to win that battle against Iris, she really doesn’t. And while there’s really no need for Iris to advance further either I still want her to win in order to protect Georgia’s reputation. I would’ve been alright with Dawn beating Iris if it wasn’t that Iris previously beat Georgia.

    Of course Dawn and Mamoswine should not be able to defeat Dragonite when Georgia wasn’t! I mean, that’d be like having Cilan to defeat Zoey in a Contest battle. I mean, Cilan has absolutely no experience at all with contests, and absolutely not contest battles, so while Dawn is training to become a better Coordinator and to defeat her rival Zoey and all of her other opponents when Cilan isn’t training for that specific goal at all, wouldn’t it be weird if Cilan would be able to defeat Zoey just after Dawn beat lost to Zoey? If it was a regular battle, it’d be alright, but now it’s a contest battle. Can you see how all of Dawn’s hard work, struggles and development would’ve been thrown right into the trash can? It’s the same thing here, with Georgia and Dawn. It’d make no sense at all and it’d be completely unfair to the one who’s been working to reach this specific goal.

    How Dawn’s contest skills will compensate for her lack of knowledge I really don’t see. :/

    Like I said, just because Langley happens to know more about Dragons than Hikari doesn't mean that Kairyu losing against Manmoo would be as unjustified, for the reasons I've already stated. I'm repeating myself at this point too.
    The lack of knowledge might not matter that much if it’d stand alone, but combining that with all the experience and training Beartic has gone through to defeat Dragon-types specifically does. If it was Excadrill Georgia had lost to, I’d be fine. Then Dawn could defeat Iris, sure. I mean, Georgia doesn’t train to specifically crush Earth/Steel-types, right?

    But they have been followed at least somewhat often prior to BW. And since Manmoo has a type advantage against Kairyu, Manmoo should win. It's really that simple. I don't care how the previous battle was unfair to Langley (which she of course didn't deserve), I just think justice should be handed in the battle against Hikari, regardless of Langley, who doesn't have anything to do with that battle. But I don't really expect it to happen, even though I really wanted that to happen. According to BW's "justice", however, type disadvantage is actually an advantage. So yeah, if we consider that as justice, then it's not surprising (and I'd even agree with you) that Hikari should lose. But not any other way...
    Type advantage doesn’t apply that way. Pansage had the type advantage against Oshawott, but still he lost. Just like Panpour beat Pikachu, or how Swadloon beat Whirlipede, not to mention how Krokorok lost to Swoobat, Swanna won over Pikachu, Krokorok beat Beartic or Leavanny beat Koffing. I’m not a fan of the idea how the writers almost have completely ignored the type advantages in this series, but I really don’t see why Iris must be an exception when she battles and her opponent has a huge type advantage. Pikachu lost to Swanna, and it was the exactly same thing there.

    Beartic had type advantage, and he should definitely have won against Dragonite, but no. But y’know, since it’s Dawn and all, who everyone seems to worship, of course we should have her win against Iris and completely humiliate Georgia. Of course! Dawn should definitely win. She who absolutely gains nothing from winning (not that Iris does either more than protecting Georgia’s honor) should definitely win, because when she has a type advantage it immediately counts! OF COURSE.

    Even though Langley isn’t directly involved in the battle her character will still be humiliated, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Langley even got mad for seeing Iris lose to an Ice-type that doesn’t belong to her. Dawn’s victory over Dragonite wouldn’t be justified in my book when Georgia and her ace Pokémon lost, but that’s just me. If others don’t agree, then I’m not really surprised, since so many people just like Dawn so much.

    Again, I answered above. I respect your arguments, as you have brought some interesting points. I just happen to not agree with them... that's it. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong, but we both have somewhat valid reasons. I won't be answering here anymore, as I made my point clear by now.
    Yeah, like you said, let's agree to disagree.

  13. #268
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Quote Originally Posted by ivantuga2 View Post
    I was clearly talking about Tunbear having a 4x type advantage. Manmoo has a 2x type advantage.
    What does it matter? They're both ice types and it's still a bad thing if Iris crushes them both. I mean really!

  14. #269
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    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    Actually I want both Iris & Dawn to get knock out from the Tournament early !
    Well , Because I want the CotD's to play a larger role then just Show up ,Battle & Leave!!!
    I wise We got a CotD Like Manasumi in Junior Cup who develop's a Temporary Rivalry with Ash.
    Same in Unova League ,
    I don't wanna League conference Where Ash only Battle Trip , Steven , Bianca and new Rival!
    I will like various CotD to appear with various Personality & Background!
    Like a Sick Boy who's too Physically ill to Battle but he secretly participate in Junior Cup because he want to Battle
    But now that's would be a Plot!
    Ya ya , I know This will make the Junior Cup too Long!!!
    But if Ash going to Win World Tournament Junior Cup , Then I don't mind this Tournament to be longer
    Atleast, THIS BEAT ALL THOSE STUPID FILLER & BORING TEAM ROCKET ARK !
    I mean , Let's be honest
    We all want more Longer, Fierce & more detailed battle!!!
    Plus,
    Ash winning the Junior might give Ash acknowledgement to various CotD in Unova League Conference and also Various CotD might personally meet Ash in Unova League because they consider Ash as a thread!!!

  15. #270

    Default Re: BW092(?): Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine!

    I wonder if the outcome of this battle will be spoiled when the title of the episode after this one is leaked, just like how the outcome of Dragonite vs. Beartic was spoiled when info about this episode came out.

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