Thread: BW090: The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!

Originally Posted by Iteru

Possibly because its a very powerful Pokémon that doesn't account for her own training skills in a battling tournament? This isn't an aspiring Dragon Master tournament.

If she catches it through a battle, then it isn't as bad in my opinion, but as it stands I think its just as bad as Hikari being given a powerful Contest Pokémon just before the GF.

Ehh, I've through 12 pages of a LOT of flak, and admittedly the thread is a lot more tamer now from that!, it just felt rather rude that Iris catching a Dragonite results in doom and gloom in such a manner. I agree like in the past, Dawn having Togekiss WAS silly, but this is now, we've moved on from that. I may be missin' more to this than most would though in this thread, I just feel so far, there isn't MUCH bad other than "Hey, Dragonite is powerful. This may lead to Things Happening."

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Purpose behind Misty obtaining Gyarados was to help her get over long time fear she had since childhood, with character gaining something out of it becoming better water trainer and judging by her skills and determination she grew enough to warrant more muscle being added to her team. Im not sure what will Iris gain from Dragonite capture with this seeming more to me like writers way to turn her in champion ready level without adequate amount of development and effort invested in her story.

A Pokemon that is harder to understand and control than a normal Axew? It's just like the purpose behind Misty obtaining Gyarados to get some character development and plot development. Champion ready level? She'll need 3 fully evolved dragons and 3 fully evolved dinosaurs for that. You're jumping to conclusions.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

When mentioning working hard to gain strong pokemon i was speaking in general. Yes Dawn being handed Togekiss just like that was bad too and Cyndaquil treatment wasn't all that believable either, but with Piplup, Mamoswine or Pachirisu we saw some genuine growth with lot of training and effort being put in whole thing.

Onscreen. Offscreen training does exist. Just because Axew is still acting like a child doesn't mean that it isn't becoming stronger. Piplup, Pikachu and Pachirisu are good indicators of that.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Iris receiving fully evolved dragon type with no foreshadowing happening prior to that, while main reason behind her journey Axew is currently put in second plan with focus not being concentrated on his growth and training don't help Iris since she doesn't gain anything other than powerful pokemon in her team. Axew was supposed to serve as indication of Iris coming closer toward achievement of dragon master goal, with increase in strength and evolution reflecting growth and improvement she is making as trainer.

In which she can do all of that with the help of the Dragonite that will help expand. There isn't much left to learn with an unevolved Pokemon.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

But instead of writers focusing on that, they rather decided to give her fully evolved dragon type already without character being developed enough to warrant such move. It also make Axew seem obsolete and pointless in first place, since it make it seem how she didn't needed Axew and make him evolve in first place to become powerful dragon trainer and learn how to reach to dragon hearts, establishing close bond with them.

There was that Deino she got experience from helping emotionally and the Druddigon whom she helped physically that she made close friends with too. She only needs Axew to learn about dragons' strength at his level and utilize it. Now with Dragonite, she'll study his strength.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Now if there occur some difficulties with owning of such powerful pokemon backfiring on Iris making her to regress in her quest, than yes Dragonite capture could potentially help her in development serving as pointer to establish stronger connection with Axew and serve as prequel to his growth in future. But capturing Dragonite and commanding it perfectly coming of as some sort of Mary Sue which already knows how to communicate properly with dragons, train them and catch some of strongest ones without any effort and struggle existing behind it won't help Iris growth at all being nothing more than character derailment.

I'm glad that we agree.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

When talking lately, im talking about present and what has been happening now. Instead of writers focusing more on Axew and its development to have him grow stronger, bond on closer level with Iris, eventually growing in strong, fully evolved dragon type. They chosen easy way giving her instead pseudo legendary dragon type to compensate for lack of development they have been doing with Axew which stayed on basic level.

Well to be honest, it would've been boring if she had only 1 dragon to make it evolve in its last stage. Getting Dragonite makes way for so many exciting possibilities to happen!

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Im sorry but that seems like poor writing to me and while i wont judge it until i see how whole thing with Dragonite is going to be handled, right now from the looks of it there doesn't exist any drawbacks from it making whole capture look unbelievable and cheap. However if Dragonite turns out to be burden and too big of bite for Iris to handle, it will make character understand what she is doing wrong helping her to better understand pokemon feelings and create stronger bond with Axew gaining something out of it. Making whole capture more justified ad done for bigger cause.

As I've just said before, I'm glad that we agree on something.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Considering how anime follows games nowadays much more than it used to do in past, and judging by build up writers have been doing with Iris lately, while not guaranteed there exists good chance that she in short period reach champion level, just like game counterpart after only 2 years in games got promoted.

It doesn't follow it all the time though. Iris isn't even a Gym Leader in the anime.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

That depends at what stage in tournament shes gonna lose. If she drops already in first round, whats the point of entering tournament in first place and show improvement she made in meantime?
That way since she would drop out too soon to battle different trainers and confront various strategies, she wont be able to determine what works and what doesn't within her strategy being just another loss,with character not making any step forward in learning how to improve strategy. Failures were probably main motivation behind Dawn decision to go to Unova and learn about different methodology trainers in Unova practice helping her to grow as coordinator, so im not sure how another loss already at start of some event is going to change anything. Not to mention character from past which is brought back usually has some success when making appearance to please fans and make him leave good impression on viewers.

Oh I' doubt she'll be kicked early on in this episode. If she was eliminated first, then I'd say that it was insignificant.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

If that happens ill be fine with Dragonite capture but if everything goes perfectly with Iris winning whole thing without any drawback emerging on surface will make whole Dragonite obtaining cheap and poorly written in first place.

As I've said before, I'm glad that we agree. It's just too soon to make these conclusions from speculation.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Fair enough, this could open door for return of other older characters too with anime becoming imbued with more continuity. However most often than not writers could care less what older fanbase wants, considering how we are not demographic toward who this show has been targeted. Judging by complaints of disproportion in skills which fluctuate in Ash case from region to regain not regaining same amount of experience, older characters not being featured more or brought back to cast etc which were never took in consideration is pretty good indication in itself how fan requests fall on deaf ears with writers being only concerned about target demographic.

Not being able to bring back old cast members is sometimes caused from the lack of freedom to write them back. I'm sure that the writers want to bring back older characters, but with their jobs being to advertise the new games they're not being allowed to do such things.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

p.s. Yes i believe we started to wear of topic too, so to avoid further derailing maybe it would be best to leave this on note agree to disagree. Like i said ill wait with final judgment until episodes get aired, but for time being this is my stance on it.

Since no moderator has said anything yet I've responded.

@Iteru;

If she catches it through a battle, then it isn't as bad in my opinion, but as it stands I think its just as bad as Hikari being given a powerful Contest Pokémon just before the GF.

I don't see how emotionally bonding with it, interacting with it and risking your life to save it(previews showed this) makes it as bad as Hikari's case whose only interaction with Togekiss was capturing it.

Originally Posted by Human

If she catches it through a battle, then it isn't as bad in my opinion, but as it stands I think its just as bad as Hikari being given a powerful Contest Pokémon just before the GF.

I don't see how emotionally bonding with it, interacting with it and risking your life to save it(previews showed this) makes it as bad as Hikari's case whose only interaction with Togekiss was capturing it.

That's my opinion in the context of the Junior Cup; getting a powerful Pokémon just before a tourney.

If the Junior Cup wasn't right around the corner after the episode, then personally it wouldn't bother me as much.

Originally Posted by Iteru

That's my opinion in the context of the Junior Cup; getting a powerful Pokémon just before a tourney.

Though you have to admit, it does actually make logical sense for Iris to catch a powerful Pokémon before a big tournament to strengthen her team. If I was her, I'd try to find a strong Pokémon quickly knowing that the current team has no chance of winning. I'm actually glad that she'll at least get to know the guy instead of being handed to her for free before a tournament that doesn't affect her Dragon Master goal. Unlike Hikari, who got a trained Togekiss just for playing princess for a few hours before a tournament that means everything to her.

Originally Posted by Iteru

If the Junior Cup wasn't right around the corner after the episode, then personally it wouldn't bother me as much.

Yeah, it wouldn't bother me as much too. We can blame that on marketing because of the "No non-fifth generation" rule used throughout Best Wishes 1. Though, the writers could have made her get the Kairyu after the tournament. It is possible that they planned something for her with it during the competition and this episode. Maybe something Drayden related? Lets just hope that it turns out well.

Originally Posted by LightningKimba

If Iris tamed any other Dragon, would y'all be satisfied with that, or is it the fact that her receiving a mon in a way that is not a usual capture the ire? As I see it, it's her doing what she is known for in the games - Understanding the hearts of dragons. I doubt Axew is goin' to, y'know, be COMPLETELY okay with a minor shaft, but the deal is... What's wrong with her catching a Dragonite? Because it's powerful?

I doubt this is a sign of her being a champ or anything of the sort, so chill y'all, just... Hey, let her be a tamer, and watch for Georgia having a huge-arse target to bust down with her polar bear, a'ight? I'm sure this match-up'll be hype, and that no silver plattering's gonna happen.

That's the point. They wouldn't evolve Axew to be an overpowered dragon, but then they give her another overpowered dragon instead?

Why do you think all of Ash's travel companions never got all powerful Pokemon? Its because they didn't want any of them to upstage Ash. Even stuff like Dawn's Mamoswine was kept very grounded because of it.

But Togekiss and Blaziken are strong dudes. And yeah Iteru, it wouldn't been a lot better down the line if the Junior Cup was timed at some point NOT THE EPISODE AFTER from Dragonite's capture. Ah wells.

Originally Posted by LightningKimba

But Togekiss and Blaziken are strong dudes. And yeah Iteru, it wouldn't been a lot better down the line if the Junior Cup was timed at some point NOT THE EPISODE AFTER from Dragonite's capture. Ah wells.

May didn't get Blaziken until literally her second to last episode as a main character, and Togekiss wasn't given to Dawn until 2 episodes before her Grand Festival.

Face it, none of Ash's travel companions have ever had a Pokemon that upstaged Ash's entire team. Misty/Brock's Pokemon were kept relatively small and unevolved, and it took some time before May's team started to become powerful, and Dawn's only fully evolved Pokemon is Mamoswine.

Now with Iris and Dragonite, she could probably wipe out Ash's entire Unova team aside from Pikachu. She probably now has the strongest Pokemon of the group.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

That's the point. They wouldn't evolve Axew to be an overpowered dragon, but then they give her another overpowered dragon instead?

Overpowered how? It's just a strong Pokemon. Strong =/=Overpowered

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Why do you think all of Ash's travel companions never got all powerful Pokemon? Its because they didn't want any of them to upstage Ash. Even stuff like Dawn's Mamoswine was kept very grounded because of it.

How is Iris going to upstage Ash with Dragonite? He has 10 Pokemon on his current team and she'll have 4. He's also going to get a Krookodile, a species that is considered to be one of the strongest Pokemon. The only way Iris will be able to upstage Ash here is by getting a higher place than him.

May didn't get Blaziken until literally her second to last episode as a main character, and Togekiss wasn't given to Dawn until 2 episodes before her Grand Festival.

And the same case applies with Dawn for her Grand Festival. Remember, there's the Unova League to go after this just like how there was the Sinnoh League after the Grand Festival.

Face it, none of Ash's travel companions have ever had a Pokemon that upstaged Ash's entire team.

You're exaggerating.

Misty/Brock's Pokemon were kept relatively small and unevolved, and it took some time before May's team started to become powerful, and Dawn's only fully evolved Pokemon is Mamoswine.

What happened to Brock's Onix and Dawn's Togekiss?

Now with Iris and Dragonite, she could probably wipe out Ash's entire Unova team aside from Pikachu. She probably now has the strongest Pokemon of the group.

I honestly doubt that.

Maybe this Dragonite will be one of the weaker ones at the very least. They can't all be invincible and there's always the odd one out.

Originally Posted by Human

A Pokemon that is harder to understand and control than a normal Axew? It's just like the purpose behind Misty obtaining Gyarados to get some character development and plot development. Champion ready level? She'll need 3 fully evolved dragons and 3 fully evolved dinosaurs for that. You're jumping to conclusions.

Considering how Iris was supposed to receive growth and character development with Axew, which served as main vector for her journey im still not sure how will Dragonite capture going to help her better understand dragon feelings, when she already showed to have pretty good knowledge about them when bonding with Druddigon or Deino. People expected that majority of her growth is going to happen with Axew, with his evolution and increase in strength serving as indication of its trainer growing forward. Its not so much that im necessarily against Dragonite capture, but more with fact how writers didn't do nearly enough with her main purpose behind journey Axew, giving hr fully evolved pokemon to rely on in tournament instead of investing more in main task which she was handed over in dragon village.

As for champion ready level she obviously isn't ready yet, but judging by relatively easy capture of one of strongest dragon types out there receiving huge boost to her team, massive knowledge about dragons and their abilities with Iris being portrayed as exceptionally capable trainer from start it seems to me writers are trying their hardest to mirror changes in games as quickly as possible, while having character story suffer from insufficient amount of development put into it to allow for more believable growth.

Onscreen. Offscreen training does exist. Just because Axew is still acting like a child doesn't mean that it isn't becoming stronger. Piplup, Pikachu and Pachirisu are good indicators of that.

Maybe so, but most people don't buy that only taking for granted things which were showed on screen.

In which she can do all of that with the help of the Dragonite that will help expand. There isn't much left to learn with an unevolved Pokemon.

In here i respectively disagree. In every sport or game your new to it, you start from basics with time growing and evolving bulging up your way forward. From Dragonite capture other than receiving boost to her team Iris wont learn much more than she did when bonding with other pokemon in past. On other hand with un evolved baby pokemon like Axew Iris can understand how to extract true potential from dragons on surface with his evolution and increase of experience serving as testament to Iris evolution as trainer establishing unbreakable bond with her pokemon and learning ins and outs from it with hard training and work paying of in end. But that isn't happening and just about when Iris started to take more adamant approach in Axew training, Dragonite comes into scene and if he indeed ends up being main star in tournament overshadowing Axew, it will make everything which has been happening with it lately pointless in first place.

Well to be honest, it would've been boring if she had only 1 dragon to make it evolve in its last stage. Getting Dragonite makes way for so many exciting possibilities to happen!

I was always for Iris getting another dragon type, just not in such rushed and poorly planned manner. I expected that Axew would evolve at least to izts mid stage before getting another dragon(let alone such powerful one like this) but i guess it all depends in what way writers will execute whole thing with Dragonite and if capture was warranted or not in first place.

So like i said ill preserve my final judgment until whole Junior Cup ends.

Not being able to bring back old cast members is sometimes caused from the lack of freedom to write them back. I'm sure that the writers want to bring back older characters, but with their jobs being to advertise the new games they're not being allowed to do such things.

Judging by Brock or TR long stay, dozen of new game protagonists and features being ignored i doubt advertizing is main reason behind this at all. There is no logical reason behind older characters being ignored like they never existed in first place, other than simply not wanting to bring them back.

Like i said with release of BW2 games and Dawn and older pokemon return their approach could change, and hopefully will but in end it only depends on them if someone will return and be done more with his story, or not.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Face it, none of Ash's travel companions have ever had a Pokemon that upstaged Ash's entire team. Misty/Brock's Pokemon were kept relatively small and unevolved, and it took some time before May's team started to become powerful, and Dawn's only fully evolved Pokemon is Mamoswine.

I still don't think sole Dragonite upstages Ash whole tam though, especially when taking reserves in account. Dragonite may be strong in general but whats even more important is trainer skill and experience with TR failure with fully evolved pokemon several times in past showing how this can quickly backfire on you if you aren't skilled enough.

As for Misty and Brock team to be fair, that has changed over time. Misty recived later on Politoad and Gyarados and she had Starmie which is for game standards strong pokemon, while Brock Pineco, Mudkip, Lotad, Onix etc have all been evolved.

I think the big question here for all the Iris suppoters here, is that why did they writers feel as though they needed to give her a Dragonite before a big tournament. It seems to me they realized they want Iris to do well, so they massively powered up her team because her current team wouldn't cut it. Granted this moves is a slap in the face to Georgia, because instead of showing her effort with Axew...she get's handed a Dragonite.

So what on Ash's or Cilan's team can beat Dragonite? Is powering up Iris at the last minute really vital to the story?

Dragonite is still the strongest Pokemon a travel companion has ever had. It makes everyone else's teams look like nonsense in comparison. The writers are turning Iris into a God character. Look at TvTropes if you don't know what that means.

I don't see why everyone is complaining about her Dragonite. Okay sure so it's being obtained just before the tournament and it's being compared to Dawn's Togekiss, as well as being a psuedo-legendary, I can clearly see why people are being bothered by this Dragonite...

But, is everyone forgetting that her Dragonite is being pit up against a Beartic? Dragonite has a 4x weakness to ice, and I doubt the writers will ignore that fact, considering they just outright pitted the two together. There's still a chance that Iris could epicly lose as much as there is a chance of her epicly winning.

...Of course, that's just my thoughts. I haven't watched the anime since the Gen II days, so it could go either way.

Many of you are still not factoring in something... she is getting a DRAGONITE! Dragonite is a Dragon/Flying pseudo-legendary Pokemon. Keywords: PSEUDO-LEGENDARY. The closest we ever got to that is Ash's Gible and his unofficial Larvitar. No main character has ever had a pseudo-legendary, and now, all of a sudden, one drops in Iris' lap!? Even if we factor in that there is chance that this Dragonite is actually quite weak, it still has the pseudo-legendary bit behind it. What did Iris do to deserve a Pokemon that can upstage every Pokemon in the main cast's teams?! Sure, she can connect with Dragon-types, yeah, that much I buy. And sure, yeah, Iris may risk her life to befriend it. Those facts DON'T MATTER!!! If she was getting another Dragon-type, even if it's part of a pseudo-legendary family, it might be more justifiable, even if its the starting stage. But getting a stage three, fully evolved pseudo-legendary is poor, cheap, and downright outrageously unfair. Ash has worked for a long time to achieve his goal, but his lazy friend Iris get her goal handed to her on a silver platter. She's done the least of all. At least with Misty, Brock, May, and Dawn, they at least TRAINED, even if some, like Dawn, had a similar situation happen to them.

In the history of the anime, Ash and Pikachu have been the stars. They have never had a friend who could upstage them in one episode. However, it is about to happen. Iris getting a Dragonite, no matter how she gets it, the fact remains she's getting one. Dragonite is still a powerful Pokemon, otherwise it wouldn't have gotten that pseudo-legendary status. If she does, I hope it acts like Charizard did; ignoring her commands, battling on its own terms, even if she befriended it. Also, I hope Georgia destroys Iris, showing her that those who take shortcuts never win. Sure, Dawn got a Togekiss just before the Grand Festival. But! Did she win with it? If memory serves, she lost in the finals against Zoey, even with Togekiss's power and skill. So even though Togekiss beefed up her arsenal, she still didn't prevail in winning the major tournament.

My point remains. Iris catching a Dragonite not only makes her the most powerful main character in the series, heavily unbalancing the whole team, but it also is totally unjustified that a powerhouse just drops into her lap, minimal effort expended at best. I don't care about type advantage/disadvantage. If Ash and Pikachu taught us anything, its that type match-ups mean nothing. If Dragonite obeys her without question, allowing her to plow through the tournament without breaking a sweat, then the writers have gone too far. Anyone who has followed the series, playing the games and watching the anime knows that those who take shortcuts will not win. Iris is taking a massive shortcut here, basically cheating her way to her goal. It's totally wrong. All the episodes Ash has spent doing special training, and now all the work Iris put into Axew, look like nothing compared to this. I'm sorry, but this cannot sly. If Georgia crushes Iris, then she gets reprimanded by someone like Drayden or Cynthia, having Dragonite taken away, knocking her down several pegs, then I will be quite satisfied.

You know what I noticed: that no matter which way you slice it Misty, May, and Dawn all raised Pokemon from Stage 3 while Iris had to catch her's before a major tournament.

-Misty entered Poliwhirl in the Whirl Cup. She did not just catch it, nor did she rush for an evolution afterwards. Politoad just happened, but she deserves credit for raising it from a Poliwag.
-May had Blaziken and Venesaur, both she had a stage 1 and trained. Yes, we did not see her raise Bulba in Johto and it's natural to speculate that it could've evolved at Oak's but May did what she could.
-Dawn had Swinub, and while yes its evos were rushed as hell, she still did her best to bond with it and hold off to use it in a contest, which ended backfiring anyway.

Bottom Line: The past 3 main girls all worked in some way to raise their Stage 3 Pokemon, while Iris had to catch her's.

Taking the heat off of Iris for a sec, the writers and promoters are also to blame because had Axew not been a marketing tool and Iris not been a Gym Leader or Champion this could have been a whole another different series.