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  1. #76
    M-Blaziken, so much yes Shiny Blaze's Avatar Bulbapedia Junior Administrator
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    Default Re: Best Wishes - what happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by dracoflare View Post
    Something is wrong with you, if you are willing to see the Character development from previous saga getting destroyed and make Ash turn into a newbie trainer again. I am not sure what kind of fan will love to see all the growth he received in the previous saga vanish and start from the scratch. I have no clue at all.
    Who are you to say this? Seriously, do you know me? Just stop. Of course it is kind of depressing to see the growth of a character you love vanishing, I understand why you and others do find this depressing. I myself just not that bothered by it. Perhaps I have hope things will get better in the future, or I am used to the fact that Ash is and never will be the best Trainer there ever was. Sure, I hope he will reach his goal one day, but that doesn't have to be now. Because I think this, am I less of a Pokémon anime fan or Ash fan? No, I'm a huge fan of the Pokémon anime and I like Ash. I've just come to accept some of the stupidities.

    Also, I liked BW Ash because he was different to DP Ash. In my first post I call BW a fresh breeze, this is because some of the changes it made and because DP Ash felt too serious for me sometimes, I didn't really recognize Ash anymore at times.

    So, tell me what is BW's formula? To me, BW's formula is "A fast paced saga like the OS, which doesn't have boring fillers like DP. Entertaining characters who actually have some decent interaction outside talking battle strategies. The main character catching more than just six Pokemon and rotating them.The lack of JJM appearing every episode and make me roll my eyes everytime they blast off.." These are the things DP lacked, and BW gave us. This is what I call BW's formula.
    Well, that's mainly how I think of BW's formula too. At least we can agree on something.

    So, do I hate BW for any of these? No, not at all. Just take a look at my previous post and see if I said anything contradictory.
    That's okay, but you might wanna read my first post on this thread. Maybe I was not clear enough, but from what I've seen here I think some or most people dislike BW because of the changes it made compared to DP. Others dislike parts of BW for other reasons, I understand that.

    You on the other hand say "Ash Regressing is what BW did different." You are supposed to be supporting BW and instead trying to make it sound much worse. No writer in the world will regress his character and call it being different. That's not being different, that's.......oh well, I am not going to say it.
    Yes, Ash regressing is just one thing that BW did different as compared to DP. DP had Ash improve as a Trainer, made him look somewhat more mature, while BW had him start all over again, looking more like a rookie starting on his first journey. Quite the opposite, if you ask me. But what, am I trying to make BW sound much worse? Why? Because I underline Ash regressed in BW? As much as I like BW, I can't deny Ash is more like a rookie trainer than an advanced trainer in BW. But as I said I am just not bothered by this really. What am I supposed to say then?

    I guess we just have different ways of seeing things. I see some of the things BW has done compared to DP as changes and also think this is why some people who liked DP dislike BW, you see this different. Sure, you can talk big and call over your friends and acquaintances of this and Serebii's forums to back up your points, but that won't make your point any more true or my point any less true. It's just a matter of perception, I think.
    Last edited by Shiny Blaze; 21st July 2013 at 09:47 AM.
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  2. #77
    Eternal ComakariShipper dracoflare's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best Wishes - what happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomazzo View Post

    Who are you to say this? Seriously, do you know me? Just stop. Of course it is kind of depressing to see the growth of a character you love vanishing, I understand why you and others do find this depressing. I myself just not that bothered by it. Perhaps I have hope things will get better in the future, or I am used to the fact that Ash is and never will be the best Trainer there ever was. Sure, I hope he will reach his goal one day, but that doesn't have to be now. Because I think this, am I less of a Pokémon anime fan or Ash fan? No, I'm a huge fan of the Pokémon anime and I like Ash. I've just come to accept some of the stupidities.
    No, I don't know you. I value you by your posts. Sure, if you are a friend of mine, and we know each other through VM convos, I might understand you or I might try understanding your point.......but as of now, I am only judging you based on your post. No, it's not wrong to be an Ash fan liking BW. As much as I don't like the way he was portrayed in the anime, he still had some qualities that I like even in BW. I liked his interactions with N. I liked a few battles like Ash versus Stephan. That being said, I actually think Heck, I even liked the Elesa battle. I have moved on ages ago, but I still don't like when people say "people don't like BW because it's different from DP." It's basically saying "people want to see the DP formula again and again and hate BW because they didn't like the change." No matter how many justifications you give, that quote is downright offensive to me, because I am pretty sure people hated BW because Ash was acting like a newbie, not because BW used a different formula. Why alienate people and make them look as if they can't move on from something they liked? Because that's what I have seen over and over again in pro-BW arguments. In fact, the quote wasn't just for you, but to everyone who put out that argument. If you have any other argument, please come forward, just don't say people didn't move on.It's as offensive as you felt offended by my post.

    Also, I liked BW Ash because he was different to DP Ash. In my first post I call BW a fresh breeze, this is because some of the changes it made and because DP Ash felt too serious for me sometimes, I didn't really recognize Ash anymore at times.
    Ash was perfectly incharacter in DP. His character progression was gradual from Johto to AG to DP. He was too serious because he was facing people like Paul who are his utter opposites. Has Ash ever been ever pissed off by anyone like Paul did? Gary always riled up Ash, but he still didn't contradict with Ash's base beliefs. Believing your Pokemon and treating them like friends is something Ash learnt through OS to AG. In DP, he was put to test by Paul for the first time.

    But I agree, the comical value was lost. But comical value doesn't have ANYTHING to do with competency. Ash could still be competent and be made fun of. Ash could still be comedic, and be this innocent boy who has pure beliefs and love towards Pokemon. This was shown in Episode N, and I liked them showing Ash like that. But it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with competency. Honestly, one must just accept that he was screwed badly in BW. Anyone who watches it for Ash and his league performance will automatically feel bitter.


    Quote Originally Posted by dracoflare View Post
    So, do I hate BW for any of these? No, not at all. Just take a look at my previous post and see if I said anything contradictory.
    That's okay, but you might wanna read my first post on this thread. Maybe I was not clear enough, but from what I've seen here I think some or most people dislike BW because of the changes it made compared to DP. Others dislike parts of BW for other reasons, I understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dracoflare View Post
    You on the other hand say "Ash Regressing is what BW did different." You are supposed to be supporting BW and instead trying to make it sound much worse. No writer in the world will regress his character and call it being different. That's not being different, that's.......oh well, I am not going to say it.
    Yes, Ash regressing is just one thing that BW did different as compared to DP. DP had Ash improve as a Trainer, made him look somewhat more mature, while BW had him start all over again, looking more like a rookie starting on his first journey. Quite the opposite, if you ask me. But what, am I trying to make BW sound much worse? Why? Because I underline Ash regressed in BW? As much as I like BW, I can't deny Ash is more like a rookie trainer than an advanced trainer in BW. But as I said I am just not bothered by this really. What am I supposed to say then?
    .
    You basically said "why people hate BW" and tell that "you are not bothered really", then what right do you have to say "people hate BW because it made things different from DP", because there is a huge difference between doing things differently and destroying character development.

    How is showing Ash like a rookie trainer "Okay" to you when he's NOT a rookie trainer? I don't get it at all. It's not JUST DP. Did you forget AG, Johto and Kanto? Did you forget all those journeys he had? Do you really like them to amount those journeys to nothing? That's absurd. Really, really absurd.

    Finally, I don't want exchanging these paragraphs forever. I have no problem accepting BW and BW Ash after three years when the saga is coming to an end. But just this quote "People hate BW because it has done things differently from DP" is highly annoying and intolerable because making an experienced trainer inexperienced isn't doing things different but doing things irrationally.

    What BW did different was

    1) Regular tournaments : Excellent idea
    2) Returning his childishness: Acceptable
    3) Fast paced saga: very good idea considering how DP was dragged like hell.
    4) Pokemon Rotation: Excellent idea.
    5) A saga dedicated to Team Plasma: Good idea
    6) TR less regular appearances: Excellent idea because their comedy was losing water in DP.


    THIS is doing things differently.

    Ash becoming a rookie again.

    THIS is not doing things differently, it's doing things stupidly.

    I can't be more clear than this.
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  3. #78
    M-Blaziken, so much yes Shiny Blaze's Avatar Bulbapedia Junior Administrator
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    Default Re: Best Wishes - what happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by dracoflare View Post
    No, I don't know you. I value you by your posts. Sure, if you are a friend of mine, and we know each other through VM convos, I might understand you or I might try understanding your point.......but as of now, I am only judging you based on your post. No, it's not wrong to be an Ash fan liking BW. As much as I don't like the way he was portrayed in the anime, he still had some qualities that I like even in BW. I liked his interactions with N. I liked a few battles like Ash versus Stephan. That being said, I actually think Heck, I even liked the Elesa battle. I have moved on ages ago, but I still don't like when people say "people don't like BW because it's different from DP." It's basically saying "people want to see the DP formula again and again and hate BW because they didn't like the change." No matter how many justifications you give, that quote is downright offensive to me, because I am pretty sure people hated BW because Ash was acting like a newbie, not because BW used a different formula. Why alienate people and make them look as if they can't move on from something they liked? Because that's what I have seen over and over again in pro-BW arguments. In fact, the quote wasn't just for you, but to everyone who put out that argument. If you have any other argument, please come forward, just don't say people didn't move on.It's as offensive as you felt offended by my post.
    My post was never meant to offend anyone, and honestly I still don't see how it could offend anyone. It's just how I've observed things. It certainly wasn't meant to all people who dislike DP and like BW, just those who still desperately wish for a show more like DP, there are people who haven't moved on, you know.

    Ash was perfectly incharacter in DP.
    Your opinion, not mine.

    Anyone who watches it for Ash and his league performance will automatically feel bitter.
    How do you know? Do you know everyone who watches the show for Ash? How do you know everyone feels like this? Sure, if there was one thing I disliked about BW, it was the league, but you know, the DP league was cool and all but also felt bitter as Ash was doing well and then they brought up a character solely created for the purpose of sending Ash out of the tournament.

    You basically said "why people hate BW" and tell that "you are not bothered really", then what right do you have to say "people hate BW because it made things different from DP", because there is a huge difference between doing things differently and destroying character development.
    I said why most people hate BW, based on my observations. Maybe I should've said some. I don't have the right to say that, if I outright stated my opinion is the ultimate truth. I didn't say: ''All people who hate BW hate it because it did things different from DP, and because I say it, it is the truth". I never said that, it was only my observation and opinion and in that light I have the right to say that. Again, it wasn't meant to offend anyone.

    How is showing Ash like a rookie trainer "Okay" to you when he's NOT a rookie trainer? I don't get it at all. It's not JUST DP. Did you forget AG, Johto and Kanto? Did you forget all those journeys he had? Do you really like them to amount those journeys to nothing? That's absurd. Really, really absurd.
    Of course I didn't forget that. I know all Ash has been through, it's just when I noticed the writers did things different, I came to accept it, as this was how Ash was going to be, so be it. He's not a rookie Trainer, they made him act like a rookie Trainer, but I've forced myself to live with it. There are other aspects of this show that I like, and I wasn't planning on giving up on it just because the main character "regressed''. You know what's really, really absurd? The way you criticize how I look at things.

    I don't care if you think how I look at Ash's ''regression'' is weird, I only find it weird you act as if Ash's "regression" bothers every single viewer of the Pokémon anime, but this is not the case, some people aren't.

    Finally, I don't want exchanging these paragraphs forever. I have no problem accepting BW and BW Ash after three years when the saga is coming to an end. But just this quote "People hate BW because it has done things differently from DP" is highly annoying and intolerable because making an experienced trainer inexperienced isn't doing things different but doing things irrationally.

    What BW did different was

    1) Regular tournaments : Excellent idea
    2) Returning his childishness: Acceptable
    3) Fast paced saga: very good idea considering how DP was dragged like hell.
    4) Pokemon Rotation: Excellent idea.
    5) A saga dedicated to Team Plasma: Good idea
    6) TR less regular appearances: Excellent idea because their comedy was losing water in DP.


    THIS is doing things differently.

    Ash becoming a rookie again.

    THIS is not doing things differently, it's doing things stupidly.

    I can't be more clear than this.
    Again, you see it as doing things stupidly, I partially agree, the writers have done stupid things, not only in BW but, yes, also in DP, but I see it as doing things different. You seem desperate to try to convince my way of seeing things are wrong and you also seem to try to talk me into a feeling of guilt, but seriously, I don't see how I've offended anyone, thus am not going to apologize for anything, and my views of the fandom and the show are not going to change. I perfectly understand all of what you are trying to say, I just don't completely agree with it, but do respect it.

    I'm really not alienating anyone, why would I? I don't hate anyone who views DP as the best, even though I strongly dislike the saga myself. Most of them are really cool people. Really, I appreciate's other's opinions, and the image you seem to have gotten from my posts of how I am (alienating others and stuff) is completely not how I am.

    I hate to act like a killjoy, but I have a feeling this conversation is turning into nothing and we're starting to talk in circles. I have my views and opinions, you have yours (and again, I respect those and find them interesting too). I don't even really care how you think of me, value me by my posts, judge me for all I care. Peace, and have a good day.
    Last edited by Shiny Blaze; 21st July 2013 at 02:43 PM.
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  4. #79
    <Cutie.. Ashfangirl17's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best Wishes - what happened?

    This has got to be the third thread on thisXD so many things went wrong, mostly I think they shouldn't have over advertised every thing, BW 2? Remember what happened with this? A lot of us were thinking Dawn would be playing a big role in the tournament along with Cynthia but yah know.

    The only good thing in my opinion that came out of this was the trio, I thought Ash /Dento / Iris had great chemistry at times, even though I found Iris really annoying.

    I did like some of the new Pokemon and Dento was a nice add in but every thing else.

    I mean come on, didn't take till the end of the series to know what they didn't do, that was let Ash actually win things.
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  5. #80
    Registered User Ambipom666's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best Wishes - what happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Kyriaki View Post
    They went as far as to dedicate an entire arc to N and Team Plasma, something they had never done before. It looks to me they didn't want anything else to outshine Team Plasma, because N was too important to get overshadowed by literally anything. If they didn't care much for Team Plasma, why did they even bother creating Episode N? Like you said, if Team Rocket could always stay the main villains, then there was no reason for N and Team Plasma to appear at all.
    Fair enough. I suppose it's less "the writers don't care about N/Team Plasma" and more "the writers wanted Team Rocket to have big roles as villains this time around."

    I think the writers wanting to do things differently this series should not be under-emphasized.
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    My ideas for a more game-faithful Best Wishes! series.

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  6. #81
    Registered User Darth Darkrai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best Wishes - what happened?

    Maybe the Writers just wanted to try something new and it really did not work out to well?

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