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  1. #16
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Quote Originally Posted by agramugl View Post
    In terms of darkness in the original series, the first thing that comes to mind is one name: Sabrina. If you can tell me that, as a kid, you saw those episodes and didn't feel even a bit of dread fill you, then...this metaphor would kinda fall apart, wouldn't it?

    I'll let that sit there for awhile.

    Now, one thing that the OS had that was far better than the later seasons, in my opinion, was pacing. Not so much Johto, which moved at the pace of a snail, but Indigo and Orange Islands were brisk, fast seasons. They felt snappy. They felt intense. They finished one gym? Onto the next! None of this twenty episodes without a gym fight nonsense. Just straight to the throat.

    Now, another thing that made sense? Ash being a novice. As a character, he was still learning the ropes. When he made stupid mistakes, it made sense. It felt like, even at the end of Indigo, that he had grown up as a character. It makes whenever he acts like an idiot later on seem a little silly and stupid.

    Now, I will agree that most of the fights were pretty brief and simple in the OS. Higher budget later on? Yeah, you're gonna get better battles. Still, do you know what the OS had more than the later seasons? Tear jerkers. REALLY big tear jerkers. Like, the kind that left scars growing up. Pikachu's Good-bye, Butterfree's Goodbye, and Gotta Catch you Later. Tear jerkers to the extreme!

    ...plus, the original series had Ash's mom.

    I can go on and on, but you can probably tell I'm a little biased toward the OS. I may not be a fair judge. However, I do really feel that the original series shined in certain respects.
    Agreed. This is what I liked about Kanto and Orange Islands. There were flaws in Kanto, (too many releases, getting pity badges, etc.), but the good parts made up for it.

    I can't include Johto with this, because while that saga had some good parts, it was a massive step down from the first two seasons and when the show truly began its boring repetitive filler formula. The sense of darkness that Kanto had also completed disappeared when Johto came along.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    No, you know, the Sabrina episode didn't freak me out as a kid. I was around 4 when I first watched it. It freaks me out now because now I can see how fucking messed up it was XD

    But I do love the tear jerkers. Especially Pikachu's Goodbye and Snow Way Out. Those were so adorable. My favorite tear jerker is from AG, though. Nothing beats the Lucario movie. I've watched it at least 15 times XD
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  3. #18
    Registered User agramugl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by agramugl View Post
    In terms of darkness in the original series, the first thing that comes to mind is one name: Sabrina. If you can tell me that, as a kid, you saw those episodes and didn't feel even a bit of dread fill you, then...this metaphor would kinda fall apart, wouldn't it?

    I'll let that sit there for awhile.

    Now, one thing that the OS had that was far better than the later seasons, in my opinion, was pacing. Not so much Johto, which moved at the pace of a snail, but Indigo and Orange Islands were brisk, fast seasons. They felt snappy. They felt intense. They finished one gym? Onto the next! None of this twenty episodes without a gym fight nonsense. Just straight to the throat.

    Now, another thing that made sense? Ash being a novice. As a character, he was still learning the ropes. When he made stupid mistakes, it made sense. It felt like, even at the end of Indigo, that he had grown up as a character. It makes whenever he acts like an idiot later on seem a little silly and stupid.

    Now, I will agree that most of the fights were pretty brief and simple in the OS. Higher budget later on? Yeah, you're gonna get better battles. Still, do you know what the OS had more than the later seasons? Tear jerkers. REALLY big tear jerkers. Like, the kind that left scars growing up. Pikachu's Good-bye, Butterfree's Goodbye, and Gotta Catch you Later. Tear jerkers to the extreme!

    ...plus, the original series had Ash's mom.

    I can go on and on, but you can probably tell I'm a little biased toward the OS. I may not be a fair judge. However, I do really feel that the original series shined in certain respects.
    Agreed. This is what I liked about Kanto and Orange Islands. There were flaws in Kanto, (too many releases, getting pity badges, etc.), but the good parts made up for it.

    I can't include Johto with this, because while that saga had some good parts, it was a massive step down from the first two seasons and when the show truly began its boring repetitive filler formula. The sense of darkness that Kanto had also completed disappeared when Johto came along.
    Agreed, especially with season 3. That had the slowest pace, the least amount of cool story arcs, etc. Though I love the third Pokemon film, season three was otherwise the OS's weak point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi_Pikachu View Post
    No, you know, the Sabrina episode didn't freak me out as a kid. I was around 4 when I first watched it. It freaks me out now because now I can see how fucking messed up it was XD

    But I do love the tear jerkers. Especially Pikachu's Goodbye and Snow Way Out. Those were so adorable. My favorite tear jerker is from AG, though. Nothing beats the Lucario movie. I've watched it at least 15 times XD
    lol! More proof that the original series was kinda messed up. It's still crazy! >_< Just think about it: the only other villain that comes close to sheer creepiness in the series is J, and even she is more just sociopathic, not existentially terrifying.

    And yeah, the Lucario movie was a really powerful film in general, one of the best of the films. Just--that ending...still, I dunno whether it's necessarily when I saw the scenes, or just proof of their writing, but Pikachu's goodbye just always gets me... >_<

  4. #19
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Quote Originally Posted by agramugl View Post
    Now, one thing that the OS had that was far better than the later seasons, in my opinion, was pacing. Not so much Johto, which moved at the pace of a snail, but Indigo and Orange Islands were brisk, fast seasons. They felt snappy. They felt intense. They finished one gym? Onto the next! None of this twenty episodes without a gym fight nonsense. Just straight to the throat.
    IMO the second Johto season, "Johto League champions" is the worst part of Johto and the OS. The season was 52 episodes and only like 15 of them actually had any purpose. Of course that's "middle Johto" in general, where all the bulk of Johto's fillers were located.

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    The OS was at least better than BW.

    And Gary was in it.

  6. #21
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    One of things Original Series had over other sagas was undoubtedly bigger amount of humor, mor colorful interactions within cast and many things which today would never manage to pass under radar like it was case before. Episodes used to be much more creative imo, had sense of adventure going for them ,exaggerated style and crazy/out of place plots with writers being in experimental phase trying out various things to determine what works and what doesn't.

    If there is one thing i liked about Kanto,OI and to lesser extent Johto is unique writing style and writers courage to drive away from games to much higher degree with anime feeling more like its own independent media in which all kind of generations could enjoy, rather than your typical "20 minute commercial" being subject mainly to promotion like its case nowadays. We can notice that in several important game characters being excluded with series in general being more filled with anime exclusive things coming solely from writers imagination making anime more unpredictable and exciting(at least for me). Looking back nowadays we don't get anymore such unique filled with darker tone mini arcs like psychotic gym leaders like Sabrina not caring of hurting other people or dismantling their lives having persona distorter, St.Anne which almost killed all protagonists being divided in trilogy concluding with epic adventure on island of massive pokemon, Gengar and Alakazam bringing in danger whole world reviving from ruins of Pokemopolis, having something like Whirl Islands arc which felt like mini season put in one bigger wrapping everything up with big water tournament . Or Giovani gym which involved Mewtwo following movie canon closely. We don't get whole anime only seasons like it was case with Orange Islands having unique portrayal of gyms which followed different set of rules compared to traditional battling, place in which story was set in and location.

    As well nowadays show lacking cleverly designed humor and throw away comments containing more mature dialogues and scenes in it with several things passing under radar. More references to Japan culture and out of place random features such as use of real guns, bombs, rocket launchers etc.

    Additionally back than aspect of pokemon series was more focused on relationship between humans and less on pokemon themselves. Pokemon was more about exploring world having Ash,Misty and Brock portrayed as group which discovered new regions and pokemon having fun together, while all pursuing their own dreams. Their dialogue and interacting was natural and spontaneous not seeming forced and this was probably one of main reasons why so many people liked them.

    And i noticed on big part such appeal came from Misty existence which knew how to reenergize and liven things up with her vibrant, flamboyant personality having unique goals and dreams to expand upon, leaving unfortunately too soon and taking away with herself good chunk of appeal and charm which series used to have with her around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurott View Post
    The companions are vaguely better than the others that Ash would eventually have, except that May and Dawn actually have plots.
    To be fair Misty and Brock had plots going for them and established storyline too. However back than formula was more focused on Ash journey of becoming master with companions playing role of helping him to grow as trainer and learn from mistakes. Compared to nowadays.

    Personally i didn't mind that back than with each character remaining active, not needing huge story arcs and lot of growth to have its presence being felt contributing to various plots, or being involved in various stories whether they were connected with their story or not.
    I suppose because of aspect of progression of journey which was more prevalent than focus on pokemon themselves back than, main cast in general seemed to have closer bond and more vivacious dynamic going for them. At least that's the way i see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel View Post
    lolwut? It may have felt that way when you're, you know, watching the series as a kid rather than a teen/adult, but in reality, the show always has, and always will be, aimed primarily at kids ages six to twelve-ish. About the only thing that might be considered "more mature" about the OS is the anime-style slap-stick humor (ie: fan-slapping) that was toned down after the series became worldwide - and even this is questionable - but otherwise, the show was just as much for kids then as it is now.
    Not really, when comparing OS with later sagas it became clear to me how anime in general had more darker, mature content with it.

    Dialogue between character and scenes often contained slightly more mature message to them with lot of crap passing passing under radar, sometimes even being directly stated which only older audience could get clearer picture of. One of top of my minds were: Infamous line from Brock comment on Giselle "she can violate my rights every day".

    In "Kangaskhan Kid" we had even more straightforward approach with Kangaskhan kid starring in Misty breasts asking "can i drink milk from them?" (of course that was cut out from dub).

    Putting that aside several especially earlier episodes(sometimes still in Johto too due to interference of Delibird) contained use of real firearms, bombs, riffles and other "more mature content" unsuitable for smaller kids. There is a reason why highest number of banned episodes comes exactly from Original series.

    As well having edgy, more emotional filled with darker themes plots if you ask me having many near death references. Such as "Squirtle kidnapping Misty threatening to kill her" if Ash doesn't get medicine in time. Episodes dealing with large mutated pokemon like Tentacruel wrecking whole Posta Vista City until Misty convinced him to stop with destruction.
    Or heavily injured pokemon which fall through in traffic accidence having crisis of not being able to find pokemon doctor such as in "Chansey Operation".

    Mini arcs dealing with characters which had split, mental neurosis expanding on their background like Sabrina being just plain evil. Lt. Surge who was rough and primitive not being concerned of sending trainers pokemon to hospital , various pokemon gangs such as one from Bike Bridge with group having to pay in some way to earn free pass. Actual death experiences having Ash float like ghost in Lavender town when Haunter extract his soul from body.

    I also feel back than episodes used to contain more emotion at least imo knowing how to reach to someone heart containing lot of suspense and affliction. Such as "Bye Bye Butterfree", goodbye scene with Pikachu,when Ash was turned into stone, when Misty left cast wanting to stay with her friends(one of most impacting and sad scenes),when Latios died, Charizard was left to train Charicific Valley with Ash barely managing to abstain himself etc,etc.

    Heck even Takeshi Shudo in his blogs point out how his intention was to write pokemon series as family oriented show not aimed only for kids, but teens, adults and all type of generations containing stiff in which everyone could enjoy. Of course as series progressed with advertizing and games starting to hold higher relevance, he had to abandoned his idea and start writing in more formulaic way sticking with in advance structured pattern expressing his frustration through blogs.
    Its no secret how many things which happened in OS were transferred to later sagas in form of rehashes and already used plots with slight modifications such as "whole story about trainer abandoning fire starter", "Pikachu refusal to evolve being brought up again and again", etc etc.

    With anime not being treated like entity which has stable on going storyline, established cast which grows forward doing build up on their interactions and stories and sense of stability like other long running shows do, since it restarts itself basically at start of every new generation.

    That's why Original series in general had more edgy, kinky style going for it imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post

    Agreed. This is what I liked about Kanto and Orange Islands. There were flaws in Kanto, (too many releases, getting pity badges, etc.), but the good parts made up for it.

    I can't include Johto with this, because while that saga had some good parts, it was a massive step down from the first two seasons and when the show truly began its boring repetitive filler formula. The sense of darkness that Kanto had also completed disappeared when Johto came along.
    Johto still had more adventurous aspect than any successor saga which came afterwards if you ask me and if anything i liked concept of this saga being treated as direct sequel to Kanto and OI with Ash not starting from scratch building up on his team and skills as trainer as well building up o friendship with Misty and Brock containing later more mature spin to it. Instead of resetting and going backwards.

    Original trio in Johto still actually felt like genuine group of friends having good chemistry and several memorable moments.They felt like group which knew themselves very well having their principles,certain spark and better dynamic than it was case with some other groups with departing episode emphasizing on how close they were as friends,and Jessie,James and Meowth were still goofy bringing tension.

    Battles were a lot better compared to first 2 seasons,Ash sidekicks actually battled more receiving some notable focus and growth,we got several great arcs and memorable gym leaders,return from older characters(like Todd,Duplica or Aya)being nice throwback to Kanto and there are many episodes from this region i always like to go back and watch being well written and enjoyable.
    And i feel Delibird were definitely among Johto highlights bringing comedy and many funny moments(i miss that bird).
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 17th February 2013 at 07:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Well, OS is OS. Johto Saga included. It if comes to Kanto/Orange alone, things are different.
    1) Little number of episodes (And because of that, what do they do? A 35 episode filler saga of which 25 are filler eps!)
    2) For the most part of the Kanto Saga, Ash has 5 Pokemon with him, even though he had 3 reserves at Oak's.
    3) We only got one full battle. EVERY other battle was a disaster.
    4) Charizard-disobedience hype (he was disobedient 70 out of 116 eps)
    5) Ash catches a Snorlaxon the Orange Islands, only to use give it a proper battle debut, one region and 8 badges later, vs Clair!
    6) And finally, the classic marketing issues (mainly the fact that, in order to hype Charizard, they left Bulbasaur/Squirtle as it is).

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Japanese culture. To be honest, that's kind of it. A while back, I may have said humour but looking back, there were a lot of dull episodes, whiny episodes and cheesy episodes that take away from the jokes that it did have. Plus some of those running gags were just annoying. It's not terrible, just in the same league as the other series and actually for more of the good points about OS I think I'd have to say that. (The OP did state trumps in.) I did always think that the Japanese cultural stuff in there was pretty cool though and it's a shame they didn't keep it in.

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Ok, I've looked into this myself. Up to the end of the Sabrina arc, I'd say that every ep has some kind of dark element to it. I actually find the tone kind of fitting since Ash is such a dunce trainer, the world is extra harsh. However, after that, it starts to break up a bit.
    Some eps are still dark and some aren't. After Pikachu's Goodbye, this definitely turns to most of the eps being silly as opposed to having a dark element. The original reason for this investigation was to see if there was something about the writing that changed the focus of the show after this point, because by then, they knew pokemon wasn't going anywhere and it would've made sense. That isn't what I discovered, though. The writing is pretty much the same before and after Pikachu's Goodbye, save for this. I guess it could still be construed as shifting the focus to being about promotion rather than being a show, but it would only be circumstantial evidence. It can't be proven. I've always considered Orange to be little more than an extension of Kanto, except now it has total freedom. It's the most original the show would get, but there is no telling if it will ever happen again. It is clear by Johto, however, that the show is now little more than promotion material. I know that later sagas would bring the dark elements back, and there may have been a few eps that had them anyway inbetween, but my search was not that comprehensive.
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    Subete wo kagayakasu MizuTaipu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Well, since I've seen every Kanto and almost every Orange Islands episode in its original Japanese, I can say that I really miss its Japanese style with the kanji and kana and the puns and the like. Plus, it had this 1970's-family-anime-nostalgia style to it, which is something Best Wishes!'s style can't really reproduce. I don't think the humor really changed over the course of the series, I think it became more situational though and more dialogue-based than slapstick.

    Though the series was just starting out, I do agree though that the battles were simple, aimless, and actually boring (the Katsura/Blaine battle the only Gym Battle that was really good, IMHO.)

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Well one thing about OS was that the animation actually looked like an Anime. Non of the CGI JUNK we have today. the characters were more genuine in attitude, battles and emotion. the COTDs we much more tollerable and memorable. Ash did make mistakes but he LEARNED form them.and rarely repeated them. there are al the was that the OS trumed anything else in mythoughts

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    the ganster ass squirtles

    I mean come on,who's gonna mess with the SQUIRTLE SQUAD?

    on a serious note I'd say the nostalgia

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    IMO, OS trumped all sagas in every aspect other than battling.

    - The humour was better, dialogue was frequently top notch.
    - People complain about Johto fillers but IMO DP felt even slower despite having fewer fillers.
    - Both the twerps and the TRio had great chemistry among themselves. In AG, interactions were alright. In DP, Dawn and Brock were frequently giving off a "Have we met before?" vibe. BW has excellent interaction between Iris and Cilan.
    - Ash's behaviour. His comic moments, generally happy-go-lucky attitude and his constant attempt to go one up on Gary.
    - Better background music.
    - Better reflection of Japanese culture... even though the dub mutilated these.

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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    Comedy (no new saga has none of that) and darkness (In Kanto, there was the St. Anne sinking, Sabrina, Pokémon Tower, and more. Now, we do have Hunter J and Team Galatic, but...).

    That's all.
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  15. #30
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    Default Re: Aspects That OS Trumps Other Sagas In

    I always like Kanto's comedic tone and random plots/humor.
    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 801 episodes
    2. Team Rocket: 736 episodes
    3. Takeshi/Brock: 633 episodes
    4. Kasumi/Misty: 282 episodes
    5. Hikari/Dawn: 201 episodes
    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
    7. Masato/Max: 192 episodes
    8. Iris: 141 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 138 episodes
    10. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

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