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  1. #16
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage View Post
    He ran into the mountains to train, and didn't have a Pokégear. That explains the part where no one has heard from him.
    That's one possible explanantion, though don't you find it a bit odd that he hasn't once flown home? I mean, he's only two trips away.

    He disappears for the same reason he doesn't speak, as a throwback to his original role as a player character, and disappearing is his "blacking out" and reappearing in front of the Pokémon Center.
    Whilst this is probably true, it doesn't explain anything in-universe. Now the DeadRed Theory, that explains his dissapearance on defeat, in-universe.


    The only back up for theories that Red's dead (and Giovanni for that matter) only stem from people's need to have "mature content" in Pokémon. In Red's case, its completely unambiguous so thinking he's anything other than a throwback to his previous role is just ridiculous, while Giovanni's is ambiguous, thus the only people who think he killed himself are the people who want him to have done that.
    You're doing it again. The DeadRed theory is an attempt to explain Red's actions in-universe which, by their nature, cannot be disproved with out-of-universe reasons (like lampshading Black-outs). Please hang up and try again.

    Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that DeadRed would serve to explain not only black outs and why no one's heard from him in ages but how he can just sit at the peak of a lonely, freezing-cold mountain peak forever with no extra clothing.



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  2. #17
    In glorious technicolor The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post


    Whilst this is probably true, it doesn't explain anything in-universe. Now the DeadRed Theory, that explains his dissapearance on defeat, in-universe.



    You're doing it again. The DeadRed theory is an attempt to explain Red's actions in-universe which, by their nature, cannot be disproved with out-of-universe reasons (like lampshading Black-outs). Please hang up and try again.
    If its true, then it doesn't need an in-universe explanation.

    Do we require an in-universe explanation for Game Freak's existence, and their dialogue claiming to create you? No, because that's breaking the fourth wall to make a shout out. It's the same case with Red.

    People are only making up these theories because they can't accept that its just as simple as that. An in-universe explanation doesn't need to be given for breaking the fourth wall.

    Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that DeadRed would serve to explain not only black outs and why no one's heard from him in ages but how he can just sit at the peak of a lonely, freezing-cold mountain peak forever with no extra clothing.
    I'd like to point out game-play and story segregation as the reason for that because it validly explains everything as well. I've given an explanation for everything else, as for why he's only wearing those clothes in a blizzard?

    (1) In the original games, the peak wasn't shown to be a perpetual blizzard, so he didn't need additional clothes.

    (2) They wanted to keep is image iconic, rather than updating him like all the other leaders. After all, if they were going to keep him silent and have him "black out", why on earth would you change the most noticeable thing about him? His Gen II sprite after all is just a mirror image and recolour of his yellow sprite.

    (3) In the case of HgSs, they added a blizzard, but they clearly wanted to keep his iconic look. They've re-edited everyone, and updated their look from FrLg, even people who wouldn't really look that different. They didn't do that with Red for the same reason as #2

    (4) These characters have been able to walk near the crater of an active volcano with no ill effects, suddenly, a little bit of cold, which many characters have been shown in-game to be able to take (Candice, Maylene, Pryce) is supposed to kill him? People always seem to underestimate the resilience of humans in this series. In the very same game, they've had a character rumoured to be strong enough to beat his Machamp at arm wrestling, and we actually see a character get hit at point-blank range with a Dragonite's hyper beam. I don't understand why people think the humans there (which have been shown to actually wield psychic powers) are as fragile as people in this world.

    Yes, the theory's also an attempt to explain his actions in-universe, but his actions could be explained many ways (and have, like the pressure of being Champion getting to him etc), but its quite clearly an attempt by most people to satisfy their need to make Pokemon more mature than it really is.
    That's one possible explanantion, though don't you find it a bit odd that he hasn't once flown home? I mean, he's only two trips away.
    Yes, it is weird, but that doesn't mean he's dead. Why no one's heard from him is yet another joke on being a silent protagonist, as no one would ever have heard anything from him.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 3rd April 2011 at 12:52 PM.

  3. #18
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage View Post
    If its true, then it doesn't need an in-universe explanation.

    Do we require an in-universe explanation for Game Freak's existence, and their dialogue claiming to create you? No,

    Should we also abolish fun whilst we're at it?

    I'd like to point out game-play and story segregation as the reason for that because it validly explains everything as well. I've given an explanation for everything else, as for why he's only wearing those clothes in a blizzard?
    No, it tells you why the designers made the game as such but it doesn't tell you why something like that would happen if we were to pretend the pokemon world was real and attempt to explain it.

    (4) These characters have been able to walk near the crater of an active volcano with no ill effects, suddenly, a little bit of cold, which many characters have been shown in-game to be able to take (Candice, Maylene, Pryce) is supposed to kill him? People always seem to underestimate the resilience of humans in this series. In the very same game, they've had a character rumoured to be strong enough to beat his Machamp at arm wrestling, and we actually see a character get hit at point-blank range with a Dragonite's hyper beam. I don't understand why people think the humans there (which have been shown to actually wield psychic powers) are as fragile as people in this world.
    Yeah, for like ten minutes tops (at least, in the story, obviously you can have the character stand there a lot longer than that, but that's not part of the canon story). Red is implied to have stood at that peak for months, that a pretty long time to stand in inappropriate clothing in the freezing-ass cold.

    Yes, the theory's also an attempt to explain his actions in-universe, but his actions could be explained many ways (and have, like the pressure of being Champion getting to him etc), but its quite clearly an attempt by most people to satisfy their need to make Pokemon more mature than it really is.
    Yes, it is weird, but that doesn't mean he's dead. Why no one's heard from him is yet another joke on being a silent protagonist, as no one would ever have heard anything from him.
    To be honest, the pokemon series is already quite mature as is (Kanto certainly was), there's no need for people to make it more so, its just fun to speculate.



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  4. #19
    In glorious technicolor The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower

    Yeah, for like ten minutes tops (at least, in the story, obviously you can have the character stand there a lot longer than that, but that's not part of the canon story). Red is implied to have stood at that peak for months, that a pretty long time to stand in inappropriate clothing in the freezing-ass cold.
    You go up and down the mountain. There's nothing to suggest that Red doesn't do the same, whilst staying in the mountain range. You meet him at the peak, it doesn't mean he stayed up there the entire time until you found him. He could be going up there for training and coming down to the foot of the mountain to rest.

    To be honest, the pokemon series is already quite mature as is (Kanto certainly was), there's no need for people to make it more so, its just fun to speculate.
    And yet they do, because apparently now you've murdered Blue's Raticate, and that's why he's in Pokemon Tower, and not because he's filling up the Pokedex and that's the only place to find Cubones. Obviously his asking you if your Pokemon are dead has some sort of hidden message behind it rather than the obvious 'being a jerk to my rival' characterization he was given.

    Yeah, for like ten minutes tops (at least, in the story, obviously you can have the character stand there a lot longer than that, but that's not part of the canon story).
    And all the trainers who hang out at Mt. Chimney to train? Or the fact that game-play time is probably longer than real-world time, and Red's trek through Mt. Ember to get the Ruby Plate was certainly much longer than ten-minutes in-game, and the RSE protagonist, fighting off all of Team Magma twice at Mt. Chimney certainly stayed there much longer.

    Then there's the fact that we have swimmers who seem to never get out of the water, yet I'm sure people assume that in-universe, they aren't there all the time. So why is it, that people assume Red is at the peak of Mt. Silver the entire time just because that's where you meet him? He could very well be taking shelter elsewhere when he needs a rest. None of his family or friends have heard any news from him. His friends and family are pretty stationary in Pallet and Viridian, he doesn't need to be at the peak of the mountain for that to happen. In fact, since the entire mountain range is restricted, he could rest anywhere.

    And you've neglected to address many of the other points (even in that quote) that I've addressed. To add more on the iconicity of his outfit, Cynthia and Looker appear in their trademark designs, and the former wears winter coats in summer, because they were bonus characters, much like Red, whereas Caitlin actually received an updated look because she had a role in the plot. Every other character, Jasmine in DPPt, and Steven also appeared in their iconic clothing even though the former got a redesign anyway in the remakes.

    No, it tells you why the designers made the game as such but it doesn't tell you why something like that would happen if we were to pretend the pokemon world was real and attempt to explain it.
    So explain Game Freak's existence, and dialogue in-universe that doesn't break the fourth wall. Oh wait, your response to that was "Should we also abolish fun whilst we're at it?"

    Good job with your debate etiquette there.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 3rd April 2011 at 08:00 PM.

  5. #20
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage View Post
    You go up and down the mountain. There's nothing to suggest that Red doesn't do the same, whilst staying in the mountain range. You meet him at the peak, it doesn't mean he stayed up there the entire time until you found him. He could be going up there for training and coming down to the foot of the mountain to rest.



    And yet they do, because apparently now you've murdered Blue's Raticate, and that's why he's in Pokemon Tower, and not because he's filling up the Pokedex and that's the only place to find Cubones. Obviously his asking you if your Pokemon are dead has some sort of hidden message behind it rather than the obvious 'being a jerk to my rival' characterization he was given.
    Well, tbf, I always thought it seemed a little out of place for him to suddenly get so uncharacteristically serious in the tower for no reason. But whatever, its completely subjective.

    And all the trainers who hang out at Mt. Chimney to train? Or the fact that game-play time is probably longer than real-world time, and Red's trek through Mt. Ember to get the Ruby Plate was certainly much longer than ten-minutes in-game, and the RSE protagonist, fighting off all of Team Magma twice at Mt. Chimney certainly stayed there much longer.

    Then there's the fact that we have swimmers who seem to never get out of the water, yet I'm sure people assume that in-universe, they aren't there all the time. So why is it, that people assume Red is at the peak of Mt. Silver the entire time just because that's where you meet him? He could very well be taking shelter elsewhere when he needs a rest. None of his family or friends have heard any news from him. His friends and family are pretty stationary in Pallet and Viridian, he doesn't need to be at the peak of the mountain for that to happen. In fact, since the entire mountain range is restricted, he could rest anywhere.
    See below.

    And you've neglected to address many of the other points (even in that quote) that I've addressed. To add more on the iconicity of his outfit, Cynthia and Looker appear in their trademark designs, and the former wears winter coats in summer, because they were bonus characters, much like Red, whereas Caitlin actually received an updated look because she had a role in the plot. Every other character, Jasmine in DPPt, and Steven also appeared in their iconic clothing even though the former got a redesign anyway in the remakes.

    So explain Game Freak's existence, and dialogue in-universe that doesn't break the fourth wall. Oh wait, your response to that was "Should we also abolish fun whilst we're at it?"

    Good job with your debate etiquette there.
    Oh come off it, I was merely trying to lighten the mood after your attempt to crush all speculation regardless.

    And I don't know why I didn't respond to your other points, must've missed 'em, my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage View Post
    If its true, then it doesn't need an in-universe explanation.

    Do we require an in-universe explanation for Game Freak's existence, and their dialogue claiming to create you? No, because that's breaking the fourth wall to make a shout out. It's the same case with Red.

    People are only making up these theories because they can't accept that its just as simple as that. An in-universe explanation doesn't need to be given for breaking the fourth wall.
    People don't need to speculate about anything, but we do, because its fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    I'd like to point out game-play and story segregation as the reason for that because it validly explains everything as well. I've given an explanation for everything else, as for why he's only wearing those clothes in a blizzard?

    (1) In the original games, the peak wasn't shown to be a perpetual blizzard, so he didn't need additional clothes.
    But its not the original games anymore its the remakes and in the remakes there's a blizzard.

    (2) They wanted to keep is image iconic, rather than updating him like all the other leaders. After all, if they were going to keep him silent and have him "black out", why on earth would you change the most noticeable thing about him? His Gen II sprite after all is just a mirror image and recolour of his yellow sprite.
    This doesn't disprove anything I've proposed, its just an alternate explanation.

    (3) In the case of HgSs, they added a blizzard, but they clearly wanted to keep his iconic look. They've re-edited everyone, and updated their look from FrLg, even people who wouldn't really look that different. They didn't do that with Red for the same reason as #2
    See above.

    (4) These characters have been able to walk near the crater of an active volcano with no ill effects, suddenly, a little bit of cold, which many characters have been shown in-game to be able to take (Candice, Maylene, Pryce) is supposed to kill him? People always seem to underestimate the resilience of humans in this series. In the very same game, they've had a character rumoured to be strong enough to beat his Machamp at arm wrestling, and we actually see a character get hit at point-blank range with a Dragonite's hyper beam. I don't understand why people think the humans there (which have been shown to actually wield psychic powers) are as fragile as people in this world.
    Er, at that altitude and in that weather its likely to be more than "a little bit of cold", probably a lot colder than the temperatures they maintain in those ice gyms. Not only that, but are a number of other risk factors (like lower oxygen concentration and danger of falling) that make living there quite hazardous. Its easily conceivable that comeone could perish there.

    Also, in response to your volcano (and seawater) thing, that (at best) only shows that they can withstand very high temperatures and long periods immersed in water, not necessarily very low temps.

    Also-also, I'd like to draw to your attention Froslass and the general route 217 area.

    Quote Originally Posted by HGSS Froslass Dex entry
    Legends in snowy regions say that a woman who was lost on an icy mountain was reborn as Froslass
    Which implies she (a pokemon-world person) died of cold and came back as a Froslass. Likewise on Rt. 217 there's talk of hauntings in the area (there's even a ghost), which implies people have died of cold there. That's all I can remember of the top of my head but it seems there is at least some evidence that the humans of the pokemon world are susceptible to low temperatures. In fact, your comment about Cynthia earlier actually could support this, that is to say if humans in the pokemon world feel the cold more they'd naturally wear more clothing than we would at higher temperatures (depending on how nesh they are).

    Oh, and for the record, I don't actually believe this (that pokehumans are more suceptible to cold than we are) I'm just playing devils advocate. Personally, I think all those oddities (e.g. swimmers that never leave the water, trainers that seem to live 24-7 next to or inside active volcanoes etc.) are just the limitations imposed by the medium we experience pokemon in i.e. video games. After all, the programmers have better things to spend their time & the data on that making sure that every single trainer in the water or near a volcano is shown to spend some times out/away from it. I know you could argue that this could also apply for Red too, and I agree it could, but the fact that he is implied to never leaves the peak, dressed inappropriately and the way he behaves could all also be intentional and that is what I choose to believe (and so speculation continues).


    Yes, the theory's also an attempt to explain his actions in-universe, but his actions could be explained many ways (and have, like the pressure of being Champion getting to him etc), but its quite clearly an attempt by most people to satisfy their need to make Pokemon more mature than it really is.
    Yes, it is weird, but that doesn't mean he's dead. Why no one's heard from him is yet another joke on being a silent protagonist, as no one would ever have heard anything from him.
    In summation: We're both right (or at least, no one's wrong, per se).
    Last edited by Green Zubat; 16th April 2011 at 11:02 PM.



    Credit to Missingno. Master for creating this lovely team snap for my sig :)

  6. #21

    Default Re: The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower

    If I could just interject on the subject, simply because Red is fought outside in the blizzard doesn't mean that's where he always is. He may for the most part remain within the cave just before the peak, which I base on the theory that he is training on the mountain, which would require opponents. The inside of the cave is not hit by the winds, so it may be warmer, allowing Red to get by a little easier with his outfit, only leaving the mountain to restock on supplies.

    Just my own theory, and be aware I may play devil's advocate, but feel free to protest.
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    Electrode has a height of 3'11 and a weight of 146.8 lbs. Assuming that it is a shape of a perfect sphere in which its diameter is its height, one can easily calculate its density is 73.6 kilograms per cubic meter. As the density of water is 1,000 kilograms per meters cubed, it should be able to easily float on water carrying something as heavy as 2,000 lbs...but it can't learn Surf."- Chuggaaconroy


  7. #22
    LOL not really Genderless Epic Username's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower

    I think we should all get back to the point The Girl Lost in The Burned Tower.
    Legends in snowy regions say that a woman who was lost on an icy mountain was reborn as Froslass

    If a woman who got lost on an icy mountin was reborn as a frosglass why can't a girl come back as a pokemon.
    Last edited by Epic Username; 11th May 2011 at 09:28 AM.

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