Thread: Does generation 2 have any redeeming qualities?

Other than introducing new mechanics, I mean.

As you all may know, those games are placed upon some high pedestal for being considered the best. However, why is that?

What did the games do that the others didn't? Well, plenty, but hardly any of it was done well. I'd say most of it was done pretty horribly and that the generation as a whole is a pathetic pile of shit and that Gamefreak actually tried to push that as a fact on us with HeartGold and SoulSilver (better than the alternative, which is to say they were lazy and didn't feel like improving them).

So, back to the question, what did the games do right enough to put them in a respected position? My idea is simply their time of release being beneficial enough to get younger players when they were at that point where they'd accept any thing thrown at them regardless of quality so that in the future (which is present day) they could be all NOSTALGIA GOGGLES MAXIMUM ALL DAY ERRY DAY AWWWWWWW YEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHH. Any other thoughts?

By not responding to this guy, you agree there is no good qualities, and that it is the worst generation.

"other than introducing new mechanics"

If we take that out, along with taking into account advancing technology, thus "better graphics" wouldn't count for anything except Gen V (and Gen IV would actually be minus) then what do you have left?

Originally Posted by Outrage

"other than introducing new mechanics"

If we take that out, along with taking into account advancing technology, thus "better graphics" wouldn't count for anything except Gen V (and Gen IV would actually be minus) then what do you have left?

Any positive factors of the game itself. How well it functions, any original features to it, etc. Like, gen 4 would have the Underground, gen 3 would have Secret Bases and Contests, gen 5 would have musicals, etc. Or maybe how gen 3 and 5 have huge variety in environments, or how Sinnoh has so much mythology behind it, or Kanto's linearity.

Basically everything that makes the ingame seem better. Before anyone brings it up, the way they did 2 regions was incredibly shitty, so please don't unless you have some reason to bring it up besides saying it increased the quality of the game (because it certainly didn't).

Originally Posted by Outrage

"other than introducing new mechanics"

If we take that out, along with taking into account advancing technology, thus "better graphics" wouldn't count for anything except Gen V (and Gen IV would actually be minus) then what do you have left?

Region size? length of play time (you could finish g/s/c in 2 days, took me 4 days to beat b/w) and quality of Pokemon.

Originally Posted by Brawl08

Before anyone brings it up, the way they did 2 regions was incredibly shitty, so please don't unless you have some reason to bring it up besides saying it increased the quality of the game (because it certainly didn't).

that's a matter of opinion and i dissagree. i happen to love how they brought back Kanto for a look at it 10 years later.

Originally Posted by Pokenar

Region size? length of play time (you could finish g/s/c in 2 days, took me 4 days to beat b/w) and quality of Pokemon.

You can finish any of those games (Gen I-IV) in 8 hours.

Region size...that's a complaint about the region, not Gen II, which is what you're talking about.

You want to talk about Gen II? Then don't be so biased as to exclude things that actually redeem it.

Originally Posted by Brawl08

Any positive factors of the game itself. How well it functions, any original features to it, etc. Like, gen 4 would have the Underground, gen 3 would have Secret Bases and Contests, gen 5 would have musicals, etc. Or maybe how gen 3 and 5 have huge variety in environments, or how Sinnoh has so much mythology behind it, or Kanto's linearity.

You realize those are new mechanics right? In any case...

-The Berry system, which unfortunately seems to have been shafted
-Specialized Pokéballs, and some of their Apricorn Balls are still unmatched by their mass-produced versions
-Day and Night features
-Gender and breeding
-Shinies
-The very first venture into online gaming with Japanese Crystal version. It didn't take off, but it was an ambitious attempt, hardly something you can credit Gen IV with since WiFi was already established with the DS (and even then, their WiFi was flawed in so many ways)
-Dark and Steel types
-Special stat split which probably had a bigger impact on battling than most people give credit for
-Held items
-Actually using what the GBC had going for it, Crystal had a much richer palette once it split from GB, and they used the IR port. Not much could be said for Gen IV's first attempt at using touch screen functionality (and even Gen V's where they seem to have gone backwards from HgSs)
-Decorating rooms
-Trainer House--combine this with room decorations and you essentially have the basis of the Secret Base feature in Gen III
-The first time two games traded data other than Pokemon (through Mystery Gift and Trainer house), again precursors for mixing records.

Originally Posted by Outrage

You can finish any of those games (Gen I-IV) in 8 hours.

Region size...that's a complaint about the region, not Gen II, which is what you're talking about.

You want to talk about Gen II? Then don't be so biased as to exclude things that actually redeem it.

Before gen 3, there were no remakes, so region size is a very acceptable thing to measure by, not only was johto tiny, but Kanto was a butchered, hollowed out void of its former self

As for the 8 hours thing, sure, if you want to speed run and cut out everything fun

I am not sure if this counts as mechanics, but they introduced good moves and Pokemon in that Generation, not to mention the ability to clear 16 gyms is something we would never have been able to do elsewhere.

I wouldn't go into detail with the moves since it may get into "mechanics" territory, but there are some Pokemon that were great then. We had Wobbuffet, a comedic Pokemon that cannot directly attack and provides a comedy relief in the anime. We have Tyranitar, who in a way made competitive battling very interesting. Another of these is Blissey, who is basically a great wall, as with Skarmory. Crobat's kind of awesome, as with Steelix. Of course, who could forget about Scizor and Forretress, two of the more useful Pokemon in competitive battling?

Objectionable? Yes, but if game mechanics are out of the equation, those are what I felt are Generation 2's greats.

Thanks for reading.

Originally Posted by Pokenar

Before gen 3, there were no remakes, so region size is a very acceptable thing to measure by, not only was johto tiny, but Kanto was a butchered, hollowed out void of its former self

As for the 8 hours thing, sure, if you want to speed run and cut out everything fun

Really? I had plenty of fun. Only reason it takes longer than that is when you do boring stuff like grinding.

Kanto being "butchered" is a subjective thing, all I saw was Kanto changing over the course of three years. Yeah, the museum was gone...so what? There was nothing in it and its inclusion in HgSs didn't do much.

And there's another thing this generation did:

-Show how things in the past game changed over time

We get very little references to actual game plots when past regions make a "cameo". There's a guy in BW that mentions the Go-goggles, you'd think there would be bigger things to mention (like maybe two legendaries fighting each other), but no. At least fanservice cameo Cynthia mentioned Platinum's plot.

Originally Posted by Pokenar

Region size? length of play time (you could finish g/s/c in 2 days, took me 4 days to beat b/w) and quality of Pokemon.

Actually, when it comes to game development, pacing is key. And pacing (along with consistency) are two things that Kanto lacked. Somehow, the wild Pokemon were still level 10-14, yet the trainers are in their 40s. This is where they fail in consistency. In pacing, they fail because after Lance, this is a significant step downwards until you reach Blaine.

Originally Posted by Outrage

You can finish any of those games (Gen I-IV) in 8 hours.

Sure, if you speed run and basically skip through everything (catching new Pokemon, dialogue, searching for shit when you see that one ledge with an item on it that you're dying to know what it is, etc).

Originally Posted by Outrage

You want to talk about Gen II? Then don't be so biased as to exclude things that actually redeem it.
You realize those are new mechanics right? In any case...

wat? I mean battling mechanics. IE: Special split, new types, abilities, natures, physical/special split, etc.

Originally Posted by Outrage

-The Berry system, which unfortunately seems to have been shafted
-Specialized Pokéballs, and some of their Apricorn Balls are still unmatched by their mass-produced versions
-Day and Night features
-Gender and breeding
-Shinies
-The very first venture into online gaming with Japanese Crystal version. It didn't take off, but it was an ambitious attempt, hardly something you can credit Gen IV with since WiFi was already established with the DS (and even then, their WiFi was flawed in so many ways)
-Dark and Steel types
-Special stat split which probably had a bigger impact on battling than most people give credit for
-Held items

-Berry system is retained in later games. Nothing special there.
-I'll give you that, but only being able to make any of 1 a day is a bullshit limitation. Being able to purchase them would've been a wiser move.
-Day/night features still exist (and they're still shitty, as they've always been, but that's something else).
-Those have been in every installment since.
-Still around.
-The online thing certainly was an attempt, but it's not noteworthy since none of the people who praise gen 2 even know about that (or care enough to remember because they aren't Japanese).
-Everything else after that is battling mechanics, so no. And they've always been around, like every other battling mechanic.


Before you try and use my argument against me, remember that features like contests and secret bases I mentioned earlier aren't battling mechanics and they're pretty different in gen 3 than they are in gen 4, so they're noteworthy. I'll help you out and give you the Bug Catching competition (which was limited by the days of the week crap, but still).

Originally Posted by winstein

I am not sure if this counts as mechanics, but they introduced good moves and Pokemon in that Generation, not to mention the ability to clear 16 gyms is something we would never have been able to do elsewhere.

Moves and Pokemon are the expected bare minimum of every generation, so I don't know why we'd count those. It's like praising a generation for having a playable character.

And 16 gyms isn't much. They're basically another set of trainers to battle. Problem with the Kanto gyms is that they're all a step down, except for Blaine and Blue but by then you should be able to stomp them to the ground.

Originally Posted by winstein

I wouldn't go into detail with the moves since it may get into "mechanics" territory, but there are some Pokemon that were great then. We had Wobbuffet, a comedic Pokemon that cannot directly attack and provides a comedy relief in the anime. We have Tyranitar, who in a way made competitive battling very interesting. Another of these is Blissey, who is basically a great wall, as with Skarmory. Crobat's kind of awesome, as with Steelix. Of course, who could forget about Scizor and Forretress, two of the more useful Pokemon in competitive battling?

Objectionable? Yes, but if game mechanics are out of the equation, those are what I felt are Generation 2's greats.

Thanks for reading.

Again, that's something for every generation. Gen 3 introduced Swampert, the kickass bulky water, Sceptile, the underrated grass sweeper/seeder, Ninjask, a popular choice for Baton Passing, and so on. There's also gen 1 classics which have always been great, like Starmie and Snorlax.

Originally Posted by Outrage

Really? I had plenty of fun. Only reason it takes longer than that is when you do boring stuff like grinding.

Or when you're, you know, actually playing the game and paying attention to everything going on.

Originally Posted by Outrage

Kanto being "butchered" is a subjective thing, all I saw was Kanto changing over the course of three years. Yeah, the museum was gone...so what? There was nothing in it and its inclusion in HgSs didn't do much.

It's far from subjective. There's no fucking way you can say to me that a region lost at least half of it's space and say that was just natural change over 3 years. Don't even try to excuse it by saying the museum was the only thing gone. Stuff that was gone in gen 2 (not the remakes, which still lack things, but not as much):
>Cerulean Cave
>Seafoam Islands
>Mt. Moon
>Lavender Tower
>Viridian Forest
>Underground tunnels
>Safari Zone
There's more, but I got an essay to work on so my mind is pre-occupied. I'll get back to you on that.

Originally Posted by Outrage

And there's another thing this generation did:

-Show how things in the past game changed over time

We get very little references to actual game plots when past regions make a "cameo". There's a guy in BW that mentions the Go-goggles, you'd think there would be bigger things to mention (like maybe two legendaries fighting each other), but no. At least fanservice cameo Cynthia mentioned Platinum's plot.

And you know what? That's quite possibly the best thing about gens 3 and 5.

The amount of focus they have on the new world and new people is what makes them so great. Gen 2 (and to a great extent 4) focused too much on dickriding the past. Everything in gen 2 was a reference (hell, half of the game was just a big reference). And don't even make me link you to the list of gen 4 references to previous generations. In comparison, gens 3 and 5 made references few and far, scattered throughout the region that the games took place in. Makes sense, if I went to a country in Europe like Spain, the last thing I would expect is to here people talking about France, Poland, Germany, Great Britain, etc. all over the place.

I added extra stuff to my list btw

Originally Posted by Brawl08

-Berry system is retained in later games. Nothing special there.
Except that it was the generation that introduced it. If we're going by the logic that "it was retained in later games so it doesn't matter" than nothing in RGBY count because it was retained in later games
-I'll give you that, but only being able to make any of 1 a day is a bullshit limitation. Being able to purchase them would've been a wiser move.
For realism purposes, that's why it wasn't buyable
-Day/night features still exist (and they're still shitty, as they've always been, but that's something else).
And again, point 1. I guess Gen I is total crap
-Those have been in every installment since.
So has everything introduced in Gen I, you are making such a great case on how terrible Gen I is. It's no wonder it flopped.
-Still around.
Being a broken record repeating myself, but by now I'm sure you get the point
-The online thing certainly was an attempt, but it's not noteworthy since none of the people who praise gen 2 even know about that (or care enough to remember because they aren't Japanese).
Lame attempt at trying to shoot down what Gen II tried to do.
-Everything else after that is battling mechanics, so no. And they've always been around, like every other battling mechanic.
Like I said: "You want to talk about Gen II? Then don't be so biased as to exclude things that actually redeem it." Pretty bias move.


Before you try and use my argument against me, remember that features like contests and secret bases I mentioned earlier aren't battling mechanics and they're pretty different in gen 3 than they are in gen 4, so they're noteworthy. I'll help you out and give you the Bug Catching competition (which was limited by the days of the week crap, but still).

You mentioned Secret Bases, in my new points found on my previous post, I've traced them back (along with Mixing records) as an extension to the already existing decoration feature for your room, as well as registering real-life trainers to be battled by computers.

And yes, Gen IV contests and secret bases were different from their previous iterations, they were crap dummed down versions of what existed before. Gen IV contests, while adding dance moves essentially made it pointless to use any move that corresponded with the type of contest you are in (and I should know, I've beaten those contests more than enough times). And you cite Gen V's musicals, but that in itself is just a dummed down Contest with only dress-up and random "tap to spin your item". It's not even a dance competition so much as it is dress-up.

Really, your points are incredibly biased, you throw away important contributions that Gen II made (or just completely disregard them) that future generations improve on rather than scrapping, yet you consider features that have been excessively dummed down with each passing generation (Contest moves-->Super contest moves; Contests in general-->Musicals) and eventually removed (secret bases) as new?

Oh and Secret Bases only exist because it's a battle mechanic, its entire existence owes itself to allowing people to visit them and challenge people they've mixed records with to a battle. Denying that its something created for battle is ignoring its entire purpose.

And you honestly want to talk about limits? How many people have actually seen Mirage Island? Then there's the Shoal Cave.

if I went to a country in Europe like Spain, the last thing I would expect is to here people talking about France, Poland, Germany, Great Britain, etc. all over the place.

Except Gen V is flooded with references, going right down to the Pokemon designs. They sure have perfected the art of being new without being new.

Originally Posted by Brawl08

It's far from subjective. There's no fucking way you can say to me that a region lost at least half of it's space and say that was just natural change over 3 years. Don't even try to excuse it by saying the museum was the only thing gone. Stuff that was gone in gen 2 (not the remakes, which still lack things, but not as much):
>Cerulean Cave
May be gone, but what are you going to use it for? There's nothing in it, you have Mt. Silver and it was explained at least
>Seafoam Islands
>Mt. Moon
Those two I'll give, especially since the rock slide thing doesn't get to be that believable a third time
>Lavender Tower
And what are you going to do there? The removal of Pokemon Tower and creation of the Radio tower was one of the biggest "time progression" things they had...a tiny little mountain town is becoming industrialized
>Viridian Forest
Give you this one
>Underground tunnels
That were completely empty
>Safari Zone
Actual explanation in-game, but was just as bad
There's more, but I got an essay to work on so my mind is pre-occupied. I'll get back to you on that.

Like I said, subjective

Or when you're, you know, actually playing the game and paying attention to everything going on.

Strange how I manage to do that and still finish it at that time frame. Please don't tell me how I'm playing my game unless you're my stalker.

Goddamn I hate the posting style here.

Except that it was the generation that introduced it. If we're going by the logic that "it was retained in later games so it doesn't matter" than nothing in RGBY count because it was retained in later games

Exactly. RBY have nothing to their names nowadays except being the first and nostalgia. Oh, and they were pretty damn non-linear.

For realism purposes, that's why it wasn't buyable

What's not realistic about being able to buy Pokebals again?

And again, point 1. I guess Gen I is total crap

Yep.

[ISo has everything introduced in Gen I, you are making such a great case on how terrible Gen I is. It's no wonder it flopped.[/I]

You realize how much sense your post doesn't make and how much off the point it is when looking at my post, right?

Lame attempt at trying to shoot down what Gen II tried to do.

This thread is about what gen 2's merits are for being considered the best. Nobody considers that. How many times have you ever seen that feature being brought up?

Like I said: "You want to talk about Gen II? Then don't be so biased as to exclude things that actually redeem it." Pretty bias move.

Oh yeah? Well that only supports later generations even more because of what they've done. In the end, we all fall back to square 1, which is why I'm disregarding those features.

Originally Posted by Outrage

I added extra stuff to my list btw
You mentioned Secret Bases, in my new points found on my previous post, I've traced them back (along with Mixing records) as an extension to the already existing decoration feature for your room, as well as registering real-life trainers to be battled by computers.

The idea evolved, but there overall different in execution in that decorations did nothing except make your room look pretty. Secret Bases allowed for recording multiple friends into your game for battles every day. And this isn't like the Trainer House in GSC (which I predict you'd bring up) because Secret Bases use the exact team your friend uses with no level or items differences, and Secret Bases can record more than one trainer.

Originally Posted by Outrage

And yes, Gen IV contests and secret bases were different from their previous iterations, they were crap dummed down versions of what existed before. Gen IV contests, while adding dance moves essentially made it pointless to use any move that corresponded with the type of contest you are in (and I should know, I've beaten those contests more than enough times). And you cite Gen V's musicals, but that in itself is just a dummed down Contest with only dress-up and random "tap to spin your item". It's not even a dance competition so much as it is dress-up.

Can't say much for gen 5's musicals atm due to not having BW yet, but gen 4's Underground still exists. And really, aren't you only supporting me with the criticisms towards gen 4's bases and contests? You're basically admitting that a generation can have it's unique traits that separate it from older and newer generations alike.

Originally Posted by Outrage

Really, your points are incredibly biased, you throw away important contributions that Gen II made (or just completely disregard them) that future generations improve on rather than scrapping, yet you consider features that have been excessively dummed down with each passing generation (Contest moves-->Super contest moves; Contests in general-->Musicals) and eventually removed (secret bases) as new?

I said (or at least implied) at the start that gen 2's battle mechanics don't matter because a generation can still have it's own qualities. If you can't bring up something for gen 2, then it has nothing to speak of. And if you really want to be like that, then gen 4 has Underground, a snow themed region, mythology everywhere, the Distortion World, and Pal Park, while gen 5 has the bigger emphasis on plot, Ferris Wheel interactions with other characters, and a region with more western influences than any other region.

Originally Posted by Outrage

Oh and Secret Bases only exist because it's a battle mechanic, its entire existence owes itself to allowing people to visit them and challenge people they've mixed records with to a battle. Denying that its something created for battle is ignoring its entire purpose.

You can argue it has exploration purposes. It gives the player a region to look at the entire region for a good spot because more often than not, the most favorable secret bases are in the most hidden areas.

Originally Posted by Outrage

And you honestly want to talk about limits? How many people have actually seen Mirage Island? Then there's the Shoal Cave.Except Gen V is flooded with references, going right down to the Pokemon designs. They sure have perfected the art of being new without being new.

I'll admit the Mirage Island was bullshit, but Shoal Cave changes every 4-6 hours, so you should have time for that. And gen 5 hardly has that many references.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_cross-generational_references#Generation_V

Gen 3 has roughly the same number of references as gen 5 does (counting FRLG, disregarding that, then gen 3 has, proportionally, the same amount of references as gen 5 does, given that gen 3 had less to reference than gen 5 does).

Originally Posted by Outrage

Strange how I manage to do that and still finish it at that time frame. Please don't tell me how I'm playing my game unless you're my stalker.

You're doing something wrong, that's for sure. 8 hours is way too close to the time that many speed runs are at.

May be gone, but what are you going to use it for? There's nothing in it, you have Mt. Silver and it was explained at least

Everything was explained because they had to say something about it. They gave everything an excuse not to be there just so they wouldn't have to put it there (I doubt space was an issue, considering the blank lines of space found in the game).

And you can use it to capture more Pokemon. It would've been really nice if they threw in Houndoom or something that was unavailable at day due to stupid time restrictions. They could've also left Mewtwo just because.

And what are you going to do there? The removal of Pokemon Tower and creation of the Radio tower was one of the biggest "time progression" things they had...a tiny little mountain town is becoming industrialized

They could make a Radio Tower, but tearing down a fucking cemetery for it has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Disrespectful to the dead, and not even fun because you can't go past the first floor. They could've left it in and just put some Misdreavus in there rather than in an awkward place like Mt. Silver.

On the other ones you seem to be more or less agreed with me, so I'll leave those alone.

Anyways, as for more locations, just about every Team Rocket base disappeared. I mean, I would think Team rocket, still being active 3 years later, would've done something with those bases. I also found the lack of an actual gym for Blue and Blaine to be annoying. Cinnabar Island getting blown up was unnecessary and removing the Pokemon Mansion and lab left me with two more things I didn't get to explore (would've been neato as fuck if they made Mew return to the Mansion and make it actually available for capture).

So, your main problem is that Kanto has things missing from Generation I, and that's what ruins it? You're overlooking everything, including great music, the day/night system, backwards compatibility, the original Berry system, two entirely new types, and the like.