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Thread: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

  1. #31

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    If ORAS is any indication of an "improvement", then Gen I&II remakes number 2 would most likely be similar. Is that enough?

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by elveonora View Post
    If ORAS is any indication of an "improvement", then Gen I&II remakes number 2 would most likely be similar. Is that enough?
    None of the remakes thus far have really improved upon the originals significantly. The older games suffer from some crippling design flaws, the regional dexes are all imbalanced and lacking variety because those games were made in a time when the rarer types had only a handful of options, the regions are flatter, shorter, smaller, and lacking in environmental variety thanks to hardware limits on the older handhelds (more so with Kanto and Johto than Hoenn), 4 directional region design feels outdated now that we have diagonal movement and changing camera angles, post game areas were generally minimal (Johto and Hoenn), the storylines were pretty minimal and uninteresting (Kanto and Johto). What most of these older regions need is to be redesigned almost from the ground up and reborn as something more new and modern, ideally through sequels.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    If you can't understand what criticism is, that's your problem. I do like those regions, but I want to see them improve. Endless remaking that amounts to little more than copy/paste isn't going to solve anything, if they want to bring back older games to be enjoyed in a modern era, they need to make larger scale improvements. It's not just the older graphics that might turn newer fans off.
    What you need to realize is that not everyone feels the same way about the older games as you do. A lot of the things you consider to be "flaws" are things I couldn't care less about or even, liked, and vice-versa.

    If you must, here are some criticisms I had of RBY and GSC:

    RBY:

    1. Limited Pokédex
    2. No clock or day/night
    3. Terrible Bag system
    4. Game didn't warn you when the box was full
    5. Movesets were shallow
    6. Starter was useless after first few gyms (Yellow)
    7. Ugly battle sprites (Red & Blue)
    8. Couldn't assign items to the Select button
    9. The Type Chart was very imbalanced
    10. Koga & Sabrina were overleveled (Yellow)
    11. Blaine & Giovanni were underleveled (Red & Blue)

    GSC:

    1. Removal of Ice Beam and Thunderbolt as TMs
    2. Elemental stones were too hard to find
    3. Low level curve
    4. Phone could only hold 10 numbers
    5. Region was overwhelmingly unfair to Chikorita
    6. The split of the Special stat unfairly hurt some Pokémon (*cough*Gyarados*cough*)
    7. Stats were biased against female Pokémon
    8. No Dark Types besides Umbreon in Johto
    9. Whitney, Clair, and Red were overpowered
    10. Elite Four was underleveled and replaced some of its best members with lame ones (*cough*Will*cough*)
    11. No Cerulean Cave or Seafoam Islands

    And, yet, despite all of those flaws, I still consider RBY and GSC to be my favorite games, because I'm able to have fun and enjoy those games despite their flaws.

    I'm curious, Bolt the Cat, do you think that GF should've ever started remaking games in the first place? Reading your posts again, you seem to be against the idea of remakes, in general.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BettyN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    If you can't understand what criticism is, that's your problem. I do like those regions, but I want to see them improve. Endless remaking that amounts to little more than copy/paste isn't going to solve anything, if they want to bring back older games to be enjoyed in a modern era, they need to make larger scale improvements. It's not just the older graphics that might turn newer fans off.
    What you need to realize is that not everyone feels the same way about the older games as you do. A lot of the things you consider to be "flaws" are things I couldn't care less about or even, liked, and vice-versa.

    If you must, here are some criticisms I had of RBY and GSC:

    RBY:

    1. Limited Pokédex
    2. No clock or day/night
    3. Terrible Bag system
    4. Game didn't warn you when the box was full
    5. Movesets were shallow
    6. Starter was useless after first few gyms (Yellow)
    7. Ugly battle sprites (Red & Blue)
    8. Couldn't assign items to the Select button
    9. The Type Chart was very imbalanced
    10. Koga & Sabrina were overleveled (Yellow)
    11. Blaine & Giovanni were underleveled (Red & Blue)

    GSC:

    1. Removal of Ice Beam and Thunderbolt as TMs
    2. Elemental stones were too hard to find
    3. Low level curve
    4. Phone could only hold 10 numbers
    5. Region was overwhelmingly unfair to Chikorita
    6. The split of the Special stat unfairly hurt some Pokémon (*cough*Gyarados*cough*)
    7. Stats were biased against female Pokémon
    8. No Dark Types besides Umbreon in Johto
    9. Whitney, Clair, and Red were overpowered
    10. Elite Four was underleveled and replaced some of its best members with lame ones (*cough*Will*cough*)
    11. No Cerulean Cave or Seafoam Islands

    And, yet, despite all of those flaws, I still consider RBY and GSC to be my favorite games, because I'm able to have fun and enjoy those games despite their flaws.

    I'm curious, Bolt the Cat, do you think that GF should've ever started remaking games in the first place? Reading your posts again, you seem to be against the idea of remakes, in general.
    Remakes themselves aren't the problem, the problem is that the older games have aged terribly. When I played the originals, I might not have cared about these things either, but now that we've had games that have toyed with things like dex expansions and other larger scale improvements, having another copy/paste game is a disappointment. Furthermore, whereas it might not have mattered if we had short routes, changes in elevation, changing camera angles, diagonal paths, and 3D, now that newer games utilize those things, the region design of the older games feels very primitive. It's because of how this series has grown over the years that these games feel outdated, and I would very much not like to be reminded that this game was made over a decade ago every time I play it.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Remakes themselves aren't the problem, the problem is that the older games have aged terribly. When I played the originals, I might not have cared about these things either, but now that we've had games that have toyed with things like dex expansions and other larger scale improvements, having another copy/paste game is a disappointment. Furthermore, whereas it might not have mattered if we had short routes, changes in elevation, changing camera angles, diagonal paths, and 3D, now that newer games utilize those things, the region design of the older games feels very primitive. It's because of how this series has grown over the years that these games feel outdated, and I would very much not like to be reminded that this game was made over a decade ago every time I play it.
    So... I guess you're not a fan of remakes, then? Would you have rather seen Red 2/Green 2 and Gold 2/Silver 2 instead of FRLG and HGSS?

    These are all your own opinions, and you're allowed to have them, but I'm also allowed to disagree. I think the first 2 Generations, despite their flaws, have aged well, and I still enjoy playing them, which is the thing that matters the most. Yes, the games look and feel a lot more like 1999 than 2014, but I don't need games to look and feel like 2014 to be enjoyable. (In fact, I quite prefer 1999 to 2014 in many ways, LOL.)

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BettyN View Post
    So... I guess you're not a fan of remakes, then? Would you have rather seen Red 2/Green 2 and Gold 2/Silver 2 instead of FRLG and HGSS?
    It doesn't need to be a sequel to accomplish that though, although it certainly is ideal.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    None of the remakes thus far have really improved upon the originals significantly. The older games suffer from some crippling design flaws, the regional dexes are all imbalanced and lacking variety because those games were made in a time when the rarer types had only a handful of options, the regions are flatter, shorter, smaller, and lacking in environmental variety thanks to hardware limits on the older handhelds (more so with Kanto and Johto than Hoenn), 4 directional region design feels outdated now that we have diagonal movement and changing camera angles, post game areas were generally minimal (Johto and Hoenn), the storylines were pretty minimal and uninteresting (Kanto and Johto). What most of these older regions need is to be redesigned almost from the ground up and reborn as something more new and modern, ideally through sequels.
    All the things you mention can be added in remakes. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but G/S/C are sequels (or at least originally were supposed to be) to R/G/B/Y and hell, I wouldn't even consider Johto to be its own region, it's connected directly to Kanto and seems just like an expansion of it, not to mention 3 years later Kanto can be revisited in those games. If you ask for Johto 3 years later, then I don't see what it would be about with Team Rocket gone and all.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    It doesn't need to be a sequel to accomplish that though, although it certainly is ideal.
    Well... I actually agree with you on that! *gasp* Yes, I would've actually rather seen sequels to Gens 1 and 2 made instead of FRLG and HGSS (if only because I didn't like RBY and GSC being retconned), and I would've also wanted to see every Generation directly build upon the last, without any remakes or reboots, period.

    But, I'm not Game Freak, and only what Game Freak wants matters in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by elveonora View Post
    All the things you mention can be added in remakes. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but G/S/C are sequels (or at least originally were supposed to be) to R/G/B/Y and hell, I wouldn't even consider Johto to be its own region, it's connected directly to Kanto and seems just like an expansion of it, not to mention 3 years later Kanto can be revisited in those games. If you ask for Johto 3 years later, then I don't see what it would be about with Team Rocket gone and all.
    I agree with you completely. Remakes can add more than people give them credit for, and even then, who's the final arbiter of what's considered "enough"?

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by elveonora View Post
    Also correct me if I'm wrong, but G/S/C are sequels (or at least originally were supposed to be) to R/G/B/Y and hell, I wouldn't even consider Johto to be its own region, it's connected directly to Kanto and seems just like an expansion of it, not to mention 3 years later Kanto can be revisited in those games.
    Having both regions tied together is exactly the problem because it makes them each feel like half a region. If they each get their own game and develop the regions individually, they'd be better off in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by elveonora View Post
    If you ask for Johto 3 years later, then I don't see what it would be about with Team Rocket gone and all.
    Just because Giovanni and Archer are gone doesn't mean Team Rocket is. They'd just need to get more creative with the plot. Or maybe Johto could have a new evil team.

  10. #40
    Registered User EmpoleonProd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    I don't get this question at all to tell you the truth, and for the timeline's sake I'm glad it wasn't. FR/LG and RSE took place at the same time and DPPt and HG/SS took place three years later, and the former Rocket member from the Powerplant resides in Unova and mentions quitting to get married and live with a family, and he has a young kid who can speak, so at least 2-3+ years since HG/SS passed which wouldn't make sense if HG/SS took place at the same time. Soooo in a nutshell the timeline makes more sense with it being in Gen IV than in Gen V anyways.
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  11. #41

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    By your logic ORAS shouldn't be released in Gen VI because it takes place many years later.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Not really. I don't see the problem with HGSS being made for Generation IV.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Well, it's more outdated by now than it would be if it had been made later.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmpoleonProd View Post
    I don't get this question at all to tell you the truth, and for the timeline's sake I'm glad it wasn't. FR/LG and RSE took place at the same time and DPPt and HG/SS took place three years later, and the former Rocket member from the Powerplant resides in Unova and mentions quitting to get married and live with a family, and he has a young kid who can speak, so at least 2-3+ years since HG/SS passed which wouldn't make sense if HG/SS took place at the same time. Soooo in a nutshell the timeline makes more sense with it being in Gen IV than in Gen V anyways.
    XY (3DS game) and B2W2 (DS game) take place at the same time. As well as ORAS (3DS game) and FRLG (GBA game). Meanwhile, XY and ORAS (both 3DS games) DON'T. Chew on that for a moment.

    Besides, if both FRLG and HGSS had each been made a Generation later, DPP probably would've been written to coincide with Gen 1, and BW with Gen 2. RSE, on the other hand, would've been established as taking place *after* GSC and possibly at the same time as B2W2 and XY.

    (Admittedly, I actually like the above setup better than what we got. The Gen 1 and 2 remakes would've both been on the DS, just like the originals were both on the GB/C, and ORAS' placement in Generation 6 fits a lot more neatly.)

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Anyone else wishes Heartgold/Soulsilver had been made during Gen V. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BettyN View Post
    XY (3DS game) and B2W2 (DS game) take place at the same time. As well as ORAS (3DS game) and FRLG (GBA game). Meanwhile, XY and ORAS (both 3DS games) DON'T. Chew on that for a moment.
    BW1 and BW2 are 2 years apart and yet you can trade freely between them, it's pretty clear based on that that trading can happen between two different points in time. So I don't see the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by BettyN View Post
    Besides, if both FRLG and HGSS had each been made a Generation later, DPP probably would've been written to coincide with Gen 1, and BW with Gen 2. RSE, on the other hand, would've been established as taking place *after* GSC and possibly at the same time as B2W2 and XY.
    That wouldn't really work out because BW takes place many years later than DPPt. GSC only takes place 3 years later than RBY. You couldn't write those games to coincide with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by BettyN View Post
    (Admittedly, I actually like the above setup better than what we got. The Gen 1 and 2 remakes would've both been on the DS, just like the originals were both on the GB/C, and ORAS' placement in Generation 6 fits a lot more neatly.)
    There wouldn't have been time, 5th gen was basically a filler generation to keep fans busy while they work on XY, it was doomed to be too short for a remake.

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