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Thread: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

  1. #1246
    Keep Moving Forward MasterKenobi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    How are we planning on doing the Maps for Black and White this time around? I could definitely get started on it, even if it means going out and picking up a guide to scan in...

    Done by the amazing Blazaking! ^^

  2. #1247
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    So, I've been noticing a steadily growing anti-trivia movement on Bulbapedia - I keep seeing editors, especially admins, purging trivia left and right. What the hell?

    I know Wikipedia has a no trivia policy, but get this: Trivia is one of the things I like most about Bulbapedia, and is one of the main reasons I prefer it to other Pokémon sites like Serebii.

    Hell, I don't know if I even have any edits left besides grammar/spelling that haven't been deemed "unworthy" - add to that that I'll never be informed that my edit has been tossed aside, rarely even receiving an edit summary on the matter, and it leaves me questioning why I even bother trying to contribute to Bulbapedia.

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    Keep Moving Forward MasterKenobi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy Appletree View Post
    So, I've been noticing a steadily growing anti-trivia movement on Bulbapedia - I keep seeing editors, especially admins, purging trivia left and right. What the hell?

    I know Wikipedia has a no trivia policy, but get this: Trivia is one of the things I like most about Bulbapedia, and is one of the main reasons I prefer it to other Pokémon sites like Serebii.

    Hell, I don't know if I even have any edits left besides grammar/spelling that haven't been deemed "unworthy" - add to that that I'll never be informed that my edit has been tossed aside, rarely even receiving an edit summary on the matter, and it leaves me questioning why I even bother trying to contribute to Bulbapedia.
    I don't speak for the staff, but the reason for the removal of trivia is that it is irrelevant and actually take away from the page in all entirety.

    If you really feel as though you have a genuine piece of trivia and not some "Abra starts with A and ends with A" then I'm sure we can be reasonable people to come to a consensus. ;)

    Done by the amazing Blazaking! ^^

  4. #1249
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKenobi View Post
    If you really feel as though you have a genuine piece of trivia and not some "Abra starts with A and ends with A" then I'm sure we can be reasonable people to come to a consensus. ;)
    I have never seen any attempt to establish consensus. What does happen is that trivia is removed, and the opinions of those adding it are discarded. I have never seen trivia that has been removed be transplanted to the talk page for discussion, or for it to be brought up on the contributor's talk page so that they know their addition has been removed. In all likelihood, that contributor will never know their addition was removed. How does that build consensus?

  5. #1250
    Moderator Maverick Nate's Avatar Bulbanews Senior WriterBulbapedia Editorial BoardModerator
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    When someone removes a piece of trivia, they are supposed to explain why it was removed in the edit summary. May it be something that was removed because it is no longer true, too restrictive, too obvious... what have you. I know I personally have been removing trivia from card pages due to speculation. Due to the nature of trivia, it's hard to come to an agreement that allows everyone to be happy at once.

    May I ask for specific examples of what you have been seeing being removed? It'll help establish the currently unwritten rules for trivia, and hopefully resolve some issues.

  6. #1251
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    When someone removes a piece of trivia, they are supposed to explain why it was removed in the edit summary. May it be something that was removed because it is no longer true, too restrictive, too obvious... what have you. I know I personally have been removing trivia from card pages due to speculation. Due to the nature of trivia, it's hard to come to an agree that allows everyone to be happy at once.

    May I ask for specific examples of what you have been seeing being removed? It'll help establish the currently unwritten rules for trivia, and hopefully resolve some issues.
    I don't agree that it is enough to simply provide an edit summary - to do so assumes that other users, especially the contributors, are looking over pages they have made edits to. This is not a reasonable expectation. It would be far more appropriate to bring up the matter, either on the talk page for the article in question, or for the contributing user.

    I made a post in this thread already (I believe in the previous page), in which I brought up a case of having trivia removed without an edit summary provided - there were three pages, and yet there was an edit summary for only one of them, with that edit summary having nothing to do with what I had contributed. If Bulbapedia was not currently under such strain, I would be happy to provide more examples.

  7. #1252
    Moderator Maverick Nate's Avatar Bulbanews Senior WriterBulbapedia Editorial BoardModerator
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    It is unrealistic to expect users to search in the history to find who added it, go to their talkpage, and post a message saying, "Excuse me, this shouldn't have been added for (a) and (b)." That is extremely time consuming, and in my opinion, unnecessary due to how much is contributed every day. There has to be some give and take, which comes in with the contributor adding it. They should be willing to look at edit summaries, and if they still disagree with the reason, they can bring it up on a talk page. As they are the people with the problem that the trivia is not there, they need to be the people to step forward.

    I don't agree with how pikiwyn handled the matter. He should have provided reasons in the edit summaries on why each one was removed. Speaking of Manectric, seconds and thirds start to enter the non-notable region. I can't find a legitimate reason on why Ampharos was removed, so that should probably be a talk page thing.

    Too much trivia is never good, and usually considered unencyclopedic. Finding a way to weave it into the actual body text on articles is a much more accepted process. Also, Bulbapedia is no longer under such strain, so let the examples fly

  8. #1253
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    It is unrealistic to expect users to search in the history to find who added it, go to their talkpage, and post a message saying, "Excuse me, this shouldn't have been added for (a) and (b)." That is extremely time consuming, and in my opinion, unnecessary. There has to be some give and take, which comes in with the contributor adding it. They should be willing to look at edit summaries, and if they still disagree with the reason, they can bring it up on a talk page. As they are the people with the problem that the trivia is not there, they need to be the people to step forward.

    I don't agree with how pikiwyn handled the matter. He should have provided reasons in the edit summaries on why each one was removed. Speaking of Manectric, seconds and thirds start to enter the non-notable region. I can't find a legitimate reason on why Ampharos was removed, so that should probably be a talk page thing.

    Too much trivia is never good, and usually considered unencyclopedic. Finding a way to weave it into the actual body text on articles is a much more accepted process. Also, Bulbapedia is no longer under such strain, so let the examples fly
    I also noted the article's talk page as an appropriate - you state it is unrealistic to expect those removing content to search for its contributor, and yet the same applies to finding which user has removed someone's contribution. Talk pages, as a rule, are generally barren of discussion, and archives can always be made. Why should a talk page not be used for discussion of removals?

    Trivia is being ground down to almost nothing on Bulbapedia. There's no reason for that, and trivia adds greatly to Bulbapedia, especially in making it a better resource than other sites - even with 8 items of trivia at one line a piece, that does not constitute a sizeable amount of page space, but it does improve the article - especially move and ability articles, which are content sparse. I agree that if something is significant enough to be integrated into another section should be, but that should not create a bias against trivia itself.

    I'll go find some examples, shall I?

    Off the top of my head, I added a note about the similarities between Mandibuzz and Braviary - while it was overly descriptive content-wise, at least some of it was relevant - however, there is currently no reference to just how similar they are, save for some highly disputable comments in the gender difference section. If such is not considered acceptable for Tauros and Miltank without noting it as a fan theory, why would it be here? Describing them as male and female counterparts implies they can interbreed. This is not the case.

  9. #1254
    Moderator Maverick Nate's Avatar Bulbanews Senior WriterBulbapedia Editorial BoardModerator
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    I don't remember saying that the "adder" needs to search for the "remover" in the history, and post on the "remover's" talk page. I meant the article talk page. As such, my point stands about it being unrealistic. It is for both.

    As for the relationship between Mandibuzz and Braviary, trivia isn't supposed to be this huge, expansive, (at lack of a better word) explanation of something. It's supposed to be short, quick little facts that are genuinely interesting. I'm not going to claim that the Mandibuzz/Braviary thing isn't notable--we have pages over things like the musketeer trio--so this could definitely be added somewhere; however, trivia is not the place.

    You may consider trivia something that makes this wiki great, though that doesn't change the fact that it is usually considered unencyclopedic. Too much trivia is, in fact a bad thing, especially for our purposes. Yeah, some is fine, but finding the appropriate place is important.

    I personally think we are making progress. If you have any other examples (maybe some that aren't from you) I think it would be very helpful.

  10. #1255
    #1 Magnemite fan MAGNEDETH's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    in short, we arent against trivia, just very strict about it.

  11. #1256
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Poppy, we used to have pages where a third to half of the content was under the trivia section. And I don't mean just two or three pages, we had a large number of them like this. After we had one page that the trivia made up 3/4 of the content, it was decided that the trivia content needed to be highly reduced. A lot of the trivia was also useless things that could easily be seen just by looking at a Pokemon's picture. Sprite trivia was one of the largest problems, because there would be some points that said "All of its sprites face one way, except for the one from this game." Sprite trivia also made up a large amount of the trivia in general.
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  12. #1257
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    One of the BW 'learn Japanese names of Pokemon' shows calls Geodude "Ishitsubute". So I guess that's confirmation that it's not Isitsubute?
    They also state name origins, Beroringa from Berori, Wanriky from Wan and Riki, Ishitsubute from Ishi and Tsubute, Zenigame from Zeni, Hoho from Hoo Hoo (yet even "Hoohoo" is marked wrong in the show >_>), Pikachu because it's Pikachu, Naetle from Nae, Agehunt from Hunt, and Whaloh from Hoeru(wail) and Oh(King).

    Also, it seems BW give Pokemon a third item drop, possibly rarer than the other two. Page 142 of the guide mentions "Very rarely, a wild Crustle in the dark grass will be holding a Rare Bone." and Rare Bone is what Serebii has down as a ''third'' item drop (he labels it as Dream World-exclusive). So I guess someone should maybe investigate the rarity of the drop, and if it's exclusive to double grass? Possibly, the Pokedex released early in the US Limited Edition of the guide may give a percentage, or at least confirm whether it's a normal drop just very rare. Unfortunately there was no EU Limited Edition so I can't even get the LE to check.

    Also, if it's interesting to be added somewhere, using something like an X Attack 3 gives the message that the stat "rose drastically" and X Attack 6 makes it say "rose immensely".

    Wonder Launcher item name changes, other than the ones like PlusPower3 to X Attack 3 which everyone predicted:
    Item Call>Item Urge
    Skill Call>Ability Urge
    Flat Call>Reset Urge
    I can't edit them myself, since Bulbapedia is currently giving some odd error of too many connections to an IP address.
    Last edited by bluesun; 12th March 2011 at 03:27 PM.

  13. #1258
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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesun View Post
    Also, it seems BW give Pokemon a third item drop, possibly rarer than the other two. Page 142 of the guide mentions "Very rarely, a wild Crustle in the dark grass will be holding a Rare Bone." and Rare Bone is what Serebii has down as a ''third'' item drop (he labels it as Dream World-exclusive). So I guess someone should maybe investigate the rarity of the drop, and if it's exclusive to double grass? Possibly, the Pokedex released early in the US Limited Edition of the guide may give a percentage, or at least confirm whether it's a normal drop just very rare. Unfortunately there was no EU Limited Edition so I can't even get the LE to check.
    The guide only mentions Hard Stone and Rare Bone for Dwebble and Crustle, no third item at all.

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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Quote Originally Posted by immewnity View Post
    The guide only mentions Hard Stone and Rare Bone for Dwebble and Crustle, no third item at all.
    I guess I'm not explaining myself well.

    In Gen IV, Pokemon could have up to two items.
    Item 1: 50% Chance
    Item 2: 5% Chance

    In Gen V, it seems that *three* items have been discovered in the data.
    Item 1: 50% Chance
    Item 2: 5% Chance
    Item 3: Huh what is this?

    Serebii, assumed that following the Ability 3 field being Dream World-exclusive abilities, that the Item 3 field was Dream World-exclusive items.

    And according to his site:
    Crustle:
    Item 1: 50% Chance: None
    Item 2: 5% Chance: Hard Stone
    Item 3: ''PDW'': Rare Bone

    ...and yet the guides state that the third item *is* available. Now, Crustle doesn't have an Item 1 so wasn't the best to check I guess.

    The first BW Pokémon that seems to have all three items, is Garbodor.
    Item 1: 50% Chance: Black Sludge
    Item 2: 5% Chance: Nugget
    Item 3: ??????????: Big Nugget

    So I was questioning what percentage the Item 3s are, if they can be found in the game. Although if the Pokédex Guide is anything like the Walkthough Guide, they'll probably just be something like circle/triangle/black triangle, maybe it'll say exact chances in the intro.

    Time to see if I can be Frisky with a Garbodor to find a Big Nugget.

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    Default Re: Suggestions, ideas, and problems

    Concerning my removal of trivia from Manectric and Ampharos I should have added an edit summary. I removed it because I don't think its notable. "An Ampharos with Plus paired with a Pokémon with Minus can potentially have a Special Attack of 540 without stat-boosting moves, the highest of any Pokémon" what about Skill Swapping Plus or Minus to another Pokemon?

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