The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Join!)

View Poll Results: Should Arceus be Added to Each Type's Bulbapedia Page? (explain)

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Thread: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Join!)

  1. #1
    Your jibs are now busted TaoistNeji's Avatar
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    Default The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Join!)

    Ok, on the Wiki I keep adding Arceus to the type pages and people keep reverting it for, what appear to me, to be straw man arguments and I'm frustrated and annoyed by it. Below are links to their communications:

    http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/User_talk:CoolPikachu!#Types

    http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Talk:Form_differences#Arceus_.28again.29

    http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/User_talk:Venomoth#Consensus

    Various Pokemon have differing forms and different methods of achieving them, some change because of the weather (Castform), some by use of a move (Meloetta), some by a certain status (Darmanitan and yes, I am calling low HP a status for lack of a better word). Arceus's method is through the use of its plates and it is one of the only Pokemon capable of being ANY type, as I don't believe Mew or Staryu is capable of being ???-type.

    So what is the problem? We are agreed that Arceus's plates are a method of form change, we have agreed that should a Pokemon be able to change type through forme, or even to be able to change forme at all (why Genesect is considered to be able to change form through cassettes when only a SMALL part of Genesect's body changes but nothing else, not stats, or moves it can use, just a part of it's body and ONE move, that it never gets STAB from. Keep in mind that if a Pokemon were holding one of Arceus's plates and managed to use Judgment, maybe through Metronome or Mirror Move Judgment would take on the type of the plate, not Normal or the user's type).

    Arceus is UNIQUE. You can look to the Eevee line to see the usage of various stones and other methods to achieve most other types, but Arceus is one of a kind. No other Pokemon can change its type the way Arceus can, and if it could it would need to be added to those type page, too. Any Pokemon can hold one of Arceus's plates, but ONLY Arceus is capable of taking on its type (unless another Pokemon were to hold the plate and switch abilities, but that's rambling).

    EDIT: BTW, I wonder if all of you have seen Arceus's page? http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Arceus%20(Pok%E9mon)&action=purge (be sure to hit F5 a few times)

    EDIT: A list of logical reasons why Arceus should be added (contributors include me, Vuvuzela2010 and SnorlaxMonster on the wiki, 05308, Outrage and Nintendo, though not affiliated):

    1. We're mostly all in agreement that it is a forme change

    2. Unless there's really a good reason not to we should keep with policy and respect that it is a forme change that like the rest must be noted in its proper place; as this refers to type in this case Arceus's various types should be documented on those pages like all other forme changes that affect type.

    3. Nintendo has programmed the game to even display different type images of Arceus

    4. The plates do have individual names

    5. Arceus can remain the type of its plate as long as it has it, in battle or out

    6. They even gave Arceus alone this unique ability

    7. Even if any other Pokemon were to take Arceus's plates the only use they have for it would be to boost the power of their moves that are the same type - Since no other Pokemon has the Multitype ability if it wanted to use the ability it would need to use a move that can swap abilities, and there's not a long list of Pokemon that can do this (@ 10, it's likely impossible) and it is pretty unlikely they'd even be able to get hold of a plate anyway.

    8. Arceus's formes also affect its signature move Judgement.

    This further adds to the uniqueness of Arceus's forme changing and further makes it even more difficult for any other Pokemon to mimic Arceus's uniqueness as a Pokemon would have to somehow A. attain a plate B. copy Arceus's ability and this can ONLY be done in battle. C. copy or get lucky enough to use Judgment at the same time. See point 10 and 11 for why this is not possible.

    9. The ability is permanent and Arceus will have it in any game or the Pokemon Dream World

    10. Various exceptions have been made simply for Arceus and its plates, for example the move Knock Off or Thief will fail to remove a plate. Skill Swap and Role Play cannot take Multitype so ONLY Arceus has access to this ability.

    11. Arceus changes physically from interaction with a plate - This is something most if not all Pokemon with forme/type variance have in common.

    12. Were it possible for a Pokemon to copy Arceus's ability while holding a plate itself it still wouldn't change color like Arceus can.

    13. It's Pokeathlon stats change

    14. The potential of its moveset is affected by its ability to go between types - It can only be tutored Draco Meteor when it is Dragon-type.
    Last edited by TaoistNeji; 12th February 2011 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Although, Arceus is "unique," it still needs an item (like Genosect) to change its forme. As more Castform, it only temporarily change its forme in battle under weather conditions.

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    Your jibs are now busted TaoistNeji's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by BoredPikachu! View Post
    Although, Arceus is "unique," it still needs an item (like Genosect) to change its forme. As more Castform, it only temporarily change its forme in battle under weather conditions.
    Again, so? Darmaitan's temporary form only occurs in the Dream World with half or less HP. But it's a major change that affects both it's type and stats. If it were only temporary and through a move like Ditto and Mew's transform, as that's just the nature of the MOVE, not the Pokemon.

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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by TaoistNeji View Post
    Darmaitan's temporary form only occurs in the Dream World with half or less HP.
    Which makes Darmaitan different. Unlike the others that's what changes, stats the others might only change stats or type. Also, Darmaitan has to have the Hidden Ability not in the Dream World.

  5. #5
    Your jibs are now busted TaoistNeji's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by BoredPikachu! View Post
    Which makes Darmaitan different. Unlike the others that's what changes, stats the others might only change stats or type. Also, Darmaitan has to have the Hidden Ability not in the Dream World.
    As I understand it "Hidden ability" means the ability the Pokemon has in the Dream World, PLUS Arceus changes because that's what its Ability makes it do, just like Dream World Darmanitan. This is again Arceus's uniqueness, a legitimate type and form change, the items are specifically meant for Arceus's use. One or two other Pokemon can copy it, but it's SIGNATURE to Arceus.

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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Without the plates, this ability has no use. Which makes Arceus iffy to put on the pages as the ability and the plates are useless without the latter.

  7. #7
    Fish fingers and custard Werdnae's Avatar Former Bulbapedia Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Personally, I feel we should only include on the type pages Pokémon whose formes have recieved official names.

    i.e. those whose formes are considered important enough by Nintendo to be worth giving a name to.
    Thanks Jo The Marten for the avatar.
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    Friendship dies and true love lies,
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  8. #8
    Your jibs are now busted TaoistNeji's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by BoredPikachu! View Post
    Without the plates, this ability has no use. Which makes Arceus iffy to put on the pages as the ability and the plates are useless without the latter.
    You're intended to obtain the plates, sort of like "gotta cat 'em all".

    And Genesect can't change quote-unquote "form" without his casettes, but it appears the vague decision is that Genesect has forms which it cannot obtain without its casettes. So, what's the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werdnae View Post
    Personally, I feel we should only include on the type pages Pokémon whose formes have recieved official names.

    i.e. those whose formes are considered important enough by Nintendo to be worth giving a name to.
    ...Do you mean to say Darmanitan is more important than Arceus? U_U Furthermore 05308 makes a good case that Nintendo does mean for Arceus's forms to be considered important immediately below.
    Last edited by TaoistNeji; 11th February 2011 at 08:28 PM.

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    Registered User L-05308's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    There is no denying that Arceus becomes a different type when it is given one of its plates, right? Right.
    When you view your Arceus from the party or the box, dose it always display Normal as its type? No.
    It shows wich ever type that corresponds to the plate it is holding.
    This makes Arceus's situation bigger and better than Castform's, who only maintains its alternate forms during battle.

    Any Pokemon that changws type through form should be accnolaged as being able to be that type, like Meloetta, Shaymin and Rotom.
    The fact that Arceus can be any of the 17 types dose not legitimise the fact it can be different types through form change.

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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by TaoistNeji View Post
    You're intended to obtain the plates, sort of like "gotta cat 'em all".

    And Genesect can't change quote-unquote "form" without his casettes, but it appears the vague decision is that Genesect has forms which it cannot obtain without its casettes. So, what's the difference?
    The fact Arceus needs the ability to be able to change forms with the plates, if you get what I'm trying to say.

  11. #11
    Your jibs are now busted TaoistNeji's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by BoredPikachu! View Post
    The fact Arceus needs the ability to be able to change forms with the plates, if you get what I'm trying to say.
    No Pokemon can just change types (well Shaymin can depending on the time in the game), even Meloetta has to use a move and that one only goes betwen two types. That's why Nintendo gave Arceus the ability. See also: Ditto's Eccentric.

    If you mean to imply that Arceus is weak Smogon will probably beat you up. ;P
    Last edited by TaoistNeji; 11th February 2011 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Clarifiation

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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by TaoistNeji View Post
    No Pokemon can just change types, even Meloetta has to use a move and that one only goes betwen two types. That's why Nintendo gave Arceus the ability.
    I don't know how this relates to the discussion. I won't go further to side-track the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by 05308 View Post
    There is no denying that Arceus becomes a different type when it is given one of its plates, right? Right.
    When you view your Arceus from the party or the box, dose it always display Normal as its type? No.
    It shows wich ever type that corresponds to the plate it is holding.
    This makes Arceus's situation bigger and better than Castform's, who only maintains its alternate forms during battle.

    Any Pokemon that changws type through form should be accnolaged as being able to be that type, like Meloetta, Shaymin and Rotom.
    The fact that Arceus can be any of the 17 types dose not legitimise the fact it can be different types through form change.
    I agree with this, as Arceus can change forms, it's not like the others from the games. Such as Kecleon can change type because of its ability.

  13. #13
    Your jibs are now busted TaoistNeji's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by BoredPikachu! View Post
    I agree with this, as Arceus can change forms, it's not like the others from the games. Such as Kecleon can change type because of its ability.
    I wouldn't be terribly opposed to adding Kecleon since that's its ability's doing. Not sure about Ditto since it must copy another Pokemon, thus its type changing is that of whatever of the other 648, not itself.

  14. #14
    Fish fingers and custard Werdnae's Avatar Former Bulbapedia Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by TaoistNeji View Post
    ...Do you mean to say Darmanitan is more important than Arceus?
    In terms of alternate formes/typing? Yes. Daruma Mode Darmanitan looks different (excluding colours), has different base stats and, for me more importantly, has a name.

    Personally, I'd also add that they should be that forme without an ability, but I'm pretty sure that would meet with too much resistance to get anywhere. Type changing due to an ability is a consequence of the ability, not the Pokémon.
    Thanks Jo The Marten for the avatar.
    Demons run when a good man goes to war.
    Night will fall and drown the sun,
    when a good man goes to war.
    Friendship dies and true love lies,
    night will fall and the dark will rise,
    when a good man goes to war.
    Demons run, but count the cost.
    The battle's won, but the child is lost.

  15. #15
    Your jibs are now busted TaoistNeji's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Arceus Debate: Should We Include Arceus's Formes on Each Type Page? (Jo

    Quote Originally Posted by Werdnae View Post
    In terms of alternate formes/typing? Yes. Daruma Mode Darmanitan looks different (excluding colours), has different base stats and, for me more importantly, has a name.

    Personally, I'd also add that they should be that forme without an ability, but I'm pretty sure that would meet with too much resistance to get anywhere. Type changing due to an ability is a consequence of the ability, not the Pokémon.
    This is sort of off-topic, but it seems to me that it looks different, not because of Pokemon gaming, but because it's meant to have symbolic/cultural meaning.

    Secondly, it might have a name, but I don't believe its image changes in the dex as Arceus does. Arceus forms are brought about by individually named items, they do have names and Arceus's type changes too, which brings us back to where we started.
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