Did you know? - Bulbapedia has a Tier List

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Thread: Did you know? - Bulbapedia has a Tier List

  1. #1
    What's up, people? Mr. Black's Avatar
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    Default Did you know? - Bulbapedia has a Tier List

    Please bear with me. The Bulbapedia Tier List is terribly in need of editing. I've already listed a multitude of changes and why on the Discussion Page so I'm not going to list them again, the reason I'm writing this is to get someone's attention. Because something needs to be done.

    What's the point of having the article if no-one cares about it or updates it? I think it's great to have a Tier List but it's basically useless if it's so askew, and the fact that no-one even listened when I made an extensive post explaining the ins and outs...

    The following is not an ego trip, just making my opinion valid: I have had a LOT of battling experience across all metagames except Uber. The Uber metagame has no bearing on Tier Lists, it is merely a result of there being an Uber tier. For example, saying 'Garchomp isn't Uber because other Ubers are way bettter than it' doesn't justify Garchomp staying in OU - the first and foremost function of Ubers is a banlist for standard, where OUs reside.

    With a huge amount of experience breeding, training and ultimately battling, ranging from NU, UU and BL/UU to OU, I know well what works and what doesn't.

    If Bulbapedia doesn't care about their Tier List or take pride in it, I have made a Tier List myself and take great pride in it. I would be happy to post it and, I don't mean to sound arrogant, but it is much more refined than the current one. Of course, if someone would take notice of the current one and take some interest in improving it, a separate, new Tier List would not be necessary.

    Even if you refuse to believe I know what I'm doing on the matter of a Tier List, at least you know that I actually care and am interested in making sure Bulbdapedia's isn't way off the mark.

    So basically, what I'm asking is

    Can someone please take notice of the Tier List and take an interest in it, or if no-one will do that

    I can submit mine for approval, if it looks OK, it can be posted as the Tier List and up for Discussion/edits. I understand perfectly well that in every Tier List there is always conflict, uncertainty and the like about a few Pokemon, and I'm happy to listen, Tier Lists will always be up for Discussion and changes... but with the current list, despite people pointing out major 'errors' (for lack of a better word) and even having other people support that, nothing is ever done about it.

    A few quotes from the Discussion page... (Garchomp is just an example, this isn't a pledge to get Garchomp moved to Uber)

    "Garchomp was moved to Ubers by Smogon. While they don't really dictate what is and what is not in which tier, would it be worth moving him here as well? Just a thought."

    "Garchomp has gone up to Uber. So can someone edit the page and put him in Uber?"

    "Well, Smogon put him there because he overcentralized OU. He's been there for at least a couple of months now." (regarding Garchomp)

    "and- wait, why hasn't Garchomp been moved into Ubers on this list? Smogon's ubers list has Garchomp, and it's not like they just added it to ubers on a whim, they took an entire month to test how battling would change w/o Garchomp, then they took the most experienced battlers, and had them vote on the matter. The overwhelming majority of votes were for Uberizing Garchomp."

    "It's like, rotting in the garbage can... Garchomp is now uber... Articuno's UU, etc. You get my point."

    ...but no-one who can do anything about it says or does anything.

    Even if all a staff member takes from this (or whoever has authority to edit the Tier List page) is realising they have a Tier List on Bulbapedia, that would be enough.

    Thank you.

    Mr. Black

  2. #2
    ∠(>w<) #634 Argy's Avatar Retired Staff
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    I don't really see why Bulbapedia is the place for this since it's subjective, and Smogon has its own list.

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    kamen no otoko Tina's Avatar
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    I've always wondered why everyone just treats Smogon as 'the tiers'. It's the most well known, yeah, but it's completely unofficial. Not to mention shitty. =P

    Honestly.. if there's going to be a tier list, I wouldn't just go with 'whatever the hell Smogon says'. If you're going to put up a tier list, might as well make it somewhat smartermore original, right? Instead of just copy-pasting from another site.

    Of course, that'd take a shitload of testing, coming up with new formats and all. I remember trying to come up with a competitive battling section when I was still here at Bulbapedia. Got torn down, why isn't this too?

    Although I'm not exactly an active user of Bulbapedia, this happened to catch my eye due to one of the few things I feel like I know about is competitive battling. Not to mention a slight irritation with Smogon, but that's not part of the subject, now is it?

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    Cheers to the Freeze Luna Tiger's Avatar Bulbapedia Staff
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    I say there's no point to a tier list. Does the 'pedia even do anything that involves competititve battling anyway? I know we discourage (to put it politely) anything even remotely tier-indicating on the individual species' page. But we're not Smogon, who has a whole site dedicated to competitive battling that is, overall, as unofficial as it can be in the world of actual information. FEAR is one thing; that's like HSOWA: somethat that's novelty to the inside franchise and still maintained on the mainspace.
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    #1 Magnemite fan MAGNEDETH's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    my "UU" Kingler decimating an "OU" Tyranitar.
    theres your damn tiers.
    Last edited by MAGNEDETH; 21st October 2008 at 05:43 PM. Reason: sq3Ilh9

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    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tina View Post
    I've always wondered why everyone just treats Smogon as 'the tiers'. It's the most well known, yeah, but it's completely unofficial. Not to mention shitty. =P
    Not shitty if you actually know the tiers are based on usage and not usefulness, though sometimes you wonder why Dragonite would be called OU for them when it was not really overused. According to their description, it should be BL.

    Now as for Bulbapedia's tier list, its almost a carbon copy of smogon's list. however, they list them in terms of "usefulness" rather than "usage" yet still use the usage terms. This causes a contradiction onto what those actual terms mean (for example, if you take a glance at 'pedia's description for Borderline, it makes no mention of it being a ban tier for those who are broken in UU), which is kind of ironic considering it is an encyclopedia.

    my "UU" Kingler decimating an "OU" Tyranitar.
    theres your damn tiers.
    Shedinja killing standard Kyogres. Just because Pokemmon X beats Pokemon Y does not mean it is generally better, even in a tier system based on usefullness. In one based on Usage, Kingler would most certainly be underused, or borderline if it proves too broken to be UU.

    Anyway, I agree with everyone else saying that Bulbapedia is not the place for tiers. Bulbagarden has only recently had an RMT sub-forum its not a major competitive battlign site. A couple of its articles on important aspects of competitive battling such as Weather Conditions is horribly mislead being c/ped from a certain other site made up of green veggie-fairies.

    Tiers are always subject to change, and unfortunately we can't have the list freely edited on Bulbapedia since, if you actually read the discussion, half the people there barely know what they are talking about and apply the "Pokemon X beats Pokemon y therefore it is better" logic.

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    #1 Magnemite fan MAGNEDETH's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    on that basis, it is speculation, which isnt allowed, and must be deleted.

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    Can I get an encore? evkl's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    It isn't necessarily speculation--for instance, if you cross-reference UU allowed lists from various tournaments and sites, and find the common denominators, at least you'd have some empirical way of doing things. The "uber" designation isn't arbitrary (well, it shouldn't be, I know that it's slipped a little from where it once stood in the GSC/RuSa days...) If there's a method to the madness-even one that's subjective with respect to the number of appearances in competitive battling-I think it can get in.
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    Cheers to the Freeze Luna Tiger's Avatar Bulbapedia Staff
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    Then can't we just have a "proper" definition of the tiers and not list what is considered what and simply redirect them to Smogon? It's /their/ speculation anyway; they should be responsible for telling people what's what, since it's their mess and we shouldn't be responsible for matching their data.
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  10. #10
    PDL
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    It's best to leave such classification to people who actually know the game inside and out. This supposed Tier-list will only end up as a carbon-copy of Smogon's. Since few people who edit the site are smart enough to actually understand how tier-lists actually work.

    the senseless insults of Smogon that's in this thread alone is proof enough that Bulbapedia can't prepare it's own tier list.
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    #1 Magnemite fan MAGNEDETH's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    so, copy/paste the Smogon list, give them credit, and end of story??

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    ∠(>w<) #634 Argy's Avatar Retired Staff
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    Woah, we don't have the right to copy anything from their site without permission.

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    #1 Magnemite fan MAGNEDETH's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    it was only a figure of speech, he he.
    granted, that also means our tiers would have to be completely different than theirs.
    sort of the same vein as translations...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAGNEDETH View Post
    it was only a figure of speech, he he.
    granted, that also means our tiers would have to be completely different than theirs.
    sort of the same vein as translations...
    The difference is that everybody who edits that page would have different ways of interperting the data. Not just people who actually play shoddy battle or whatever the battling engine is called.

    And it's already been proven that Bulbapedia editors in general don't have the knowledge or experience to deal with a properly mantianed teir-list.

    It's just going to cause arguements.
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  15. #15
    Bloody Melt
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    That's why I've been against the tier list from the beginning. If you really want it, leave a soft link to Smogon's tier list instead of copying them.
    If ya need me, I'm probably playing some Mann vs Machine: http://steamcommunity.com/id/optimatum

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