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Thread: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

  1. #136
    PURPLE HERMIT! Chosen of Mana's Avatar Archives Staff
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    RE: Cipher Peons. Again, do we need the full move sets of all the peons? We don't do this with any other trainer classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Support. The locations here are beta locations that are not actually a part of any Pokémon canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Moving) Version-exclusive Pokémon to Game-exclusive Pokémon
    Support, as XY seem to have dropped "Version" from their titles.

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  2. #137
    Moderator Maverick Nate's Avatar Bulbanews Senior WriterBulbapedia Editorial BoardModerator
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen of Mana View Post
    RE: Cipher Peons. Again, do we need the full move sets of all the peons? We don't do this with any other trainer classes.
    There's a lot more information to have with Cipher Peons though, like Shadow Pokémon and stuff. I personally don't think we should start removing information just to make them fit within our limits (since we have them fitting in an acceptably different manner)

  3. #138
    It's what I do MisterE13's Avatar Archives JuniorBulbapedia Junior Administrator
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen of Mana View Post
    RE: Cipher Peons. Again, do we need the full move sets of all the peons? We don't do this with any other trainer classes.
    There's a lot more information to have with Cipher Peons though, like Shadow Pokémon and stuff. I personally don't think we should start removing information just to make them fit within our limits (since we have them fitting in an acceptably different manner)
    I never liked having the extra pages for Peons or the page we have on "Shadow Pokémon Trainers in Pokémon Colosseum". IIRC, they were created because "anyone with a Shadow is a bit like a boss in those games and should have as much information as possible". I'd rather just have the information we currently have on the Trainer class pages and the Trainer entries on location pages (since they both denote Shadow Pokemon) and the List of Shadow Pokemon page. I think I once started making a catch template for Orre so maybe that could be another option to explore.

  4. #139
    It's what I do MisterE13's Avatar Archives JuniorBulbapedia Junior Administrator
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Support deletion, it's nothing but a long list of barely informative entries that are better suited to the link template.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Support, there isn't an excessive amount of content which would prevent it from being merged with the other FRLG beta information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Support, the page is a great start and could use mainspacing to encourage others to fill out missing information such as images of the trophies. It should however be disambiguiated as Trophy (Pokemon.com) or something as we already have pages for different trophy awards in the games and anime and should really have more information on SSB trophies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Moving) Version-exclusive Pokémon to Game-exclusive Pokémon, and as a similar idea Version-exclusive moves to Game-exclusive moves
    Support, with X and Y coming out with should get rid of as many references to all games as "Versions" as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Splitting) Status ailment splitting into Status problem and Battle status.
    I'm not sure it really needs to be split since all the status problems with a significant amount of information have already been split into their own pages, only do it if there is in fact adifference between the terms in the games. If it were split into the two categories that have currently been proposed, which page would the "Volatile status" section be merged into?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen of Mana View Post
    RE: Cipher Peons. Again, do we need the full move sets of all the peons? We don't do this with any other trainer classes.
    There's a lot more information to have with Cipher Peons though, like Shadow Pokémon and stuff. I personally don't think we should start removing information just to make them fit within our limits (since we have them fitting in an acceptably different manner)
    I never liked having the extra pages for Peons or the page we have on "Shadow Pokémon Trainers in Pokémon Colosseum". IIRC, they were created because "anyone with a Shadow is a bit like a boss in those games and should have as much information as possible". I'd rather just have the information we currently have on the Trainer class pages and the Trainer entries on location pages (since they both denote Shadow Pokemon) and the List of Shadow Pokemon page. I think I once started making a catch template for Orre so maybe that could be another option to explore.

  5. #140
    Sphere Hunter Kogoro's Avatar Bulbapedia Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    • Delete: Members of Team Rocket

      Created back in 2004, the article has a pretty heavy history. I'd prefer we merge this into the Team Rocket article, rather than delete it.

    • Merge: Sevii Isles 8 and 9 into Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen beta

      The beta Sevii Islands would be a permanent stub, may as well merge them and make a more complete single article. Agree.

    • Move: Version-exclusive Pokémon to Game-exclusive Pokémon

      While the games are not using Version within their titles, this article is not exclusive to game content. Moving the article to a game exclusive title would require the removal of the anime info, which isn't reasonable. "Version", in this article's title, can be considered the non-titular format of version as even X & Y are still two versions of one overarching game. Heavily disagree with moving this article.

    • Split: Status ailment into Status problem and Battle status.

      The blackboard in the Aspertia Gym lists these as "status conditions" while items like Full Heal note them as "status problems". The official Black 2 & White 2 guidebook also uses "status conditions". Conflicting official information, difficult to decide which should be used.

  6. #141
    PURPLE HERMIT! Chosen of Mana's Avatar Archives Staff
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kogoro View Post
    While the games are not using Version within their titles, this article is not exclusive to game content. Moving the article to a game exclusive title would require the removal of the anime info, which isn't reasonable. "Version", in this article's title, can be considered the non-titular format of version as even X & Y are still two versions of one overarching game. Heavily disagree with moving this article.
    Would it be reasonable to move the M14 information to the M14 article?

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  7. #142
    Moderator Maverick Nate's Avatar Bulbanews Senior WriterBulbapedia Editorial BoardModerator
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterE13 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    Support, the page is a great start and could use mainspacing to encourage others to fill out missing information such as images of the trophies. It should however be disambiguiated as Trophy (Pokemon.com) or something as we already have pages for different trophy awards in the games and anime and should really have more information on SSB trophies.
    I would say more like, Trophy (Online games), simply because pokemon.com isn't the only website with online games, and although I haven't checked what prizes the other games give out, I would expect them to be trophies or similar. Cartoon Network website has online games, so does Yahoo Kids Jp (I especially like their Fly! Shiftry game.) It would also give us a way to make the base Trophy page a disambig to talk about smash bros, Gen 2 decor, actual trophies they award at video game and TCG events, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterE13 View Post
    I never liked having the extra pages for Peons or the page we have on "Shadow Pokémon Trainers in Pokémon Colosseum". IIRC, they were created because "anyone with a Shadow is a bit like a boss in those games and should have as much information as possible". I'd rather just have the information we currently have on the Trainer class pages and the Trainer entries on location pages (since they both denote Shadow Pokemon) and the List of Shadow Pokemon page. I think I once started making a catch template for Orre so maybe that could be another option to explore.
    By all means, create and present a better way to have the information on one page, without completely annihilating the information we have. I'd hate to lose information due to some sort of limit we have on pages. Isn't that sort of the reason why we have learnlists on separate pages? too much information to list on one. If you can create an elegant page merging the three appropriately, be our guest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kogoro View Post
    Move: Version-exclusive Pokémon to Game-exclusive Pokémon

    While the games are not using Version within their titles, this article is not exclusive to game content. Moving the article to a game exclusive title would require the removal of the anime info, which isn't reasonable. "Version", in this article's title, can be considered the non-titular format of version as even X & Y are still two versions of one overarching game. Heavily disagree with moving this article.
    I agree with @Chosen of Mana's idea here. What I think happened was that the word "version" was construed from its original game centric meaning to fit into the situation stemming from M14. I personally do believe the anime section of this page should be split and merged onto M14, while the page is still moved to Game-exclusive Pokémon. Pokemon.com is even calling them Game-exclusive Pokémon, and I think we should reflect an official recognition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kogoro View Post
    Split: Status ailment into Status problem and Battle status.

    The blackboard in the Aspertia Gym lists these as "status conditions" while items like Full Heal note them as "status problems". The official Black 2 & White 2 guidebook also uses "status conditions". Conflicting official information, difficult to decide which should be used.
    Whichever one is used more frequently? There are things with more than one official title that we've dealt with before (*cough* Shiny Pokémon, AKA alternate coloration, AKA rare coloration *cough*). I'm personally leaning towards "status conditions", because other medium--specifically the TCG and the Figure Game--both call them Special Conditions, and it would make for a nice symmetry between sections. (And also the move tag on the TCG special conditions page would then take care of itself.)
    Last edited by Maverick Nate; 4th October 2013 at 12:27 AM.

  8. #143
    Bulbapedia Editorial Board Zesty Cactus's Avatar Bulbapedia Deputy Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Members of Team Rocket: I'd say merge relevant information into Team Rocket, then delete it.

    Sevii Isles 8 and 9 into Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen beta: Definitely merge it.

    User:Berrenta_/Trophy: Looks mainspaceable to me.

    Version-exclusive Pokémon to Game-exclusive Pokémon, and as a similar idea Version-exclusive moves to Game-exclusive moves: I'm undecided for now since the M14 part doesn't quite mesh with calling it "game-exclusive", however, X and Y seem to have dropped the "version" name, so it could go either way.

    Status ailment splitting into Status problem and Battle status: Yes, split it.

  9. #144
    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    I think that it's a very good thing for us to have a page that highlight how the version/game exclusive concept went beyond the game, into the anime. I'd have to heavily object to just splitting them their own separate ways.

    In addition, I doubt that whatever the official word is, we're going to be getting rid of refering to the diverse versions of the same setting/plot as "versions". Different iterations of the same setting have been called "versions" for the past fifteen years. A LITTLE too much inertia there. So even if we change the actual article name, we'd need to make very, very, very sure that the article clearly refer to them as "version exlusives". Possibly even with a lede of "Version-exclusives pokémon, officially known as game-exclusive pokémon...".

    I'd also query whether the term "game-exclusive" is used in reference to generations other than VI. If not, we should be careful not to draw a general conclusion from a specific example.

    On the whole, I tend to agree with Kogsie.
    Maverick Nate likes this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

  10. #145
    A real monstrosity SnorlaxMonster's Avatar Bulbanews Board of editorsBulbapedia StaffArchives Advisor
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Delete outright. There is no worthwhile content to be merged that is not already on the Team Rocket page.

    Yeah, we don't need pages on individual locations that are in the game data but inaccessible through normal gameplay. Mystery Zone is fine due to tweaking, but I don't see the point in this article.

    I think just merge this into Pokémon.com online games. It's just an aspect of them.

    Move to "Game-exclusive Pokémon"

    The anime section is not applicable to the "version" title. The anime section is demonstrating how the anime applies the game concept in the 14th movie pair; the anime section does not really belong on the page, as the movie separation has little to do with the total set of different Pokemon that appear in them, mainly just the cover legendary and the Golurk/Hydreigon swap. The page just happens to note which Pokemon are different between the two.

    The official name is "game-exclusive Pokémon", and this matches the recent dropping of "Version" from the game titles. Version is not the correct way to describe the two different movies either, so the anime section cannot be used as an argument to preserve the current title.

    Splitting Status ailment splitting into Status problem and Battle status.
    Status ailment has not been used officially outside on Conquest (and perhaps Stadium if you count "ailment" by itself); we should use the official "status problem". The TCG and TFG use distinct terms for many things, so I don't think their usage of "status condition" should be used to indicate the general usage.

    I have Battle status and Team effect drafts already written; I just need to get around to doing "Battle condition" (I think that was the name I was going to call it).

  11. #146
    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    Again, do we know "game-exclusive" to be the official name for ANY of the past generations? If not, we shouldn't draw conclusions about official names for those, from what Nintendo calls them this generation.

    Second, popular usage matters. Nintendo can jump up and down screaming "IT'S GAME EXCLUSIVE!" until they're blue in the face all they want, if the fanbase has been using another term for it for fifteen years (and they have), that other term should not be displaced easily. We're not just a wiki for official nintendo information, but for everything about pokémon, including the fandom. What the fandom has called this for fifteen years, should not stop mattering because Nintendo decided to refer to them by another word on a single page.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

  12. #147
    Moderator Maverick Nate's Avatar Bulbanews Senior WriterBulbapedia Editorial BoardModerator
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    I dealt with the week of 9/20. Members of Team Rocket and sevii Islands 8 and 9 were merged into Team Rocket and Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen beta appropriately. Trophy was mainspaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    I don't really agree with this deletion, but according to the talk page, all non speculative content was moved onto Version, so I don't see why we would necessarily need to keep this highly speculative article. I'm not convinced either way. Convince me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    I disagree with this merge. They are two separate places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Nate View Post
    I think each weather should have its own separate page. Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    Again, do we know "game-exclusive" to be the official name for ANY of the past generations? If not, we shouldn't draw conclusions about official names for those, from what Nintendo calls them this generation.

    Second, popular usage matters. Nintendo can jump up and down screaming "IT'S GAME EXCLUSIVE!" until they're blue in the face all they want, if the fanbase has been using another term for it for fifteen years (and they have), that other term should not be displaced easily. We're not just a wiki for official nintendo information, but for everything about pokémon, including the fandom. What the fandom has called this for fifteen years, should not stop mattering because Nintendo decided to refer to them by another word on a single page.
    What I think happened here, was that when the page was created, the intent was to have "Version" using its "official definition" in relation to the games. However, the instant anime information was added, it switched from an official use to a "practical use" utilizing the more general definition of version. Now, the move, I think, is trying to shove the general use back into an official use, and that's not working, and shouldn't work. I agree that the move shouldn't be done, and that no information should be removed. I'd honestly like to add some TCG information, because some Japanese sets release different packs for the same expansion (for instance, a Diamond pack and a Pearl pack) and there are some Pokémon cards that were only available in one of the two.

    I now think the Version-exclusive Pokémon (and moves) should stay where they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnorlaxMonster View Post
    Status ailment has not been used officially outside on Conquest (and perhaps Stadium if you count "ailment" by itself); we should use the official "status problem". The TCG and TFG use distinct terms for many things, so I don't think their usage of "status condition" should be used to indicate the general usage.

    I have Battle status and Team effect drafts already written; I just need to get around to doing "Battle condition" (I think that was the name I was going to call it).
    I only brought up the TCG and the TFG because @Kogoro brought up that "special conditions" was officially used in both the games and the game guide. (The part in the games being a very blatant "this is called this" part of the games, being on the Aspertia City school blackboards.) It being used in those places, in addition to the TCG and TFG, makes me think it is a much more frequent term than "status problem".
    Last edited by Maverick Nate; 2nd October 2013 at 11:44 PM.

  13. #148
    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    What I could see doing is change away from a list of tables with version-exclusives into a discussion of the use of exclusivity in each game/anime/etc, with the actual tables being at "Game-exclusive pokemon" and "movie 14". But we need a page where the concept of two different versions of the same product havign different pokémon needs to be adressed across the board.
    Maverick Nate likes this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

  14. #149
    The Sworn Brothers Adyniz's Avatar Archives StaffBulbapedia Staff
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    * Future generations of Pokémon
    Regardless of the article's long history... It just states the very obvious things and some speculative stuff. There is more to this franchise than just starters or gym badges and it has been somewhat unpredictable over the past few years. It's speculative and I won't mind if it gets deleted.

    * User:Abcboy/sandbox/Heavy rain and User:Abcboy/sandbox/Intense sunlight
    The separate articles look more tidy (some of the info is missing though i.e. descriptions in the sunlight one). But that is all I can say.
    I don't have a definite answer for these two but I am leaning towards a yes and removing (moving?) the respective content from the main weather conditions article.

  15. #150
    Sphere Hunter Kogoro's Avatar Bulbapedia Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: Candidates for merging/moving/mainspacing/splitting discussion thread

    On status problems/conditions/ailments:

    Just checked my guide books for Diamond & Pearl (Nintendo Power), Platinum, and Black & White (I also have the BW Pokédex guidebook). DP, BW, and the BW Pokédex all use "status conditions", while Pt uses "status ailments".
    Maverick Nate likes this.

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