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  1. #1
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    Default animated png

    not all users are able to view animated png. therefore, the image that appears to users not viewing animated png should show something "useful". for example, the leftover weather effects images at this page does not help at all. most of the images are just black blanks and shows nothing. another example is the kakuna evolution. it does not help much. it could at least show the frame which contains beedrill emerging from the cocoon

  2. #2
    Fish fingers and custard Werdnae's Avatar Former Bulbapedia Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: animated png

    Since it keeps coming up, I'll have to say it again. The first frame of any animated png MUST be an acceptable still image. No exceptions. The 'static' sprite for sprites, mid-move for moves, highlighted for maps, etc. People with Firefox saying "But I can't tell", the images in the file history do not animate. I use firefox and it's easy to tell whether it has been done properly.
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  3. #3
    I'm mean and green Jo The Marten's Avatar Bulbanews WriterSocial Media EditorArchives StaffBulbapedia Editorial BoardModerator
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    Default Re: animated png

    I'll just put this here if anyone decides to fix these:

    Palkia's BW sprite doesn't start on the right frame. It's mid-animation.

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    Default Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by Werdnae View Post
    Since it keeps coming up, I'll have to say it again. The first frame of any animated png MUST be an acceptable still image. No exceptions. The 'static' sprite for sprites, mid-move for moves, highlighted for maps, etc. People with Firefox saying "But I can't tell", the images in the file history do not animate. I use firefox and it's easy to tell whether it has been done properly.
    i thought we decided on this a long long time ago? it should definitely be a written rule.

  5. #5
    Very fruity and batty. Noivern's Avatar
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    Default Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by Werdnae View Post
    Since it keeps coming up, I'll have to say it again. The first frame of any animated png MUST be an acceptable still image. No exceptions. The 'static' sprite for sprites, mid-move for moves, highlighted for maps, etc. People with Firefox saying "But I can't tell", the images in the file history do not animate. I use firefox and it's easy to tell whether it has been done properly.
    I understand what's going on with the entire thing, but for sprites, can't we just use GIFs? It's not like we'll hit the colour palette limitation if we use a good GIF converter/processor that does per-frame palettes.
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    Arrow Re: animated png

    I have to agree with Twiggy on this one. What's so freaking scary and harmful about the Graphics Interchange format? It's not like its possible to make 32-bit APNGs without really expensive software anyway, all of our sprites are (or at least should be) 8-bit able as well, and who the hell animates photographs? If it is possible to do per-frame palettes, then I see much less problems with GIFs than with AniPNGs.

    The problem is the APNG format is to underdeveloped for converting tens of thousands of files to save some editor an extra click of the preview button, put simply. Don't we heavily encourage users to click that button as much as possible already?
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    The Sworn Brothers Adyniz's Avatar Archives StaffBulbapedia Staff
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    Default Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexTheRose View Post
    I have to agree with Twiggy on this one. What's so freaking scary and harmful about the Graphics Interchange format? It's not like its possible to make 32-bit APNGs without really expensive software anyway, all of our sprites are (or at least should be) 8-bit able as well, and who the hell animates photographs? If it is possible to do per-frame palettes, then I see much less problems with GIFs than with AniPNGs.

    The problem is the APNG format is to underdeveloped for converting tens of thousands of files to save some editor an extra click of the preview button, put simply. Don't we heavily encourage users to click that button as much as possible already?
    I beg to differ. GIFs quality sucks and leaves a really bad impression on the site overall, especially when we are talking about sprites, one the widely used images like them should never be in gif. Also, it is not just about the "extra click" otherwise we would have never implemented that NO JPG, only PNG rule. The quality does matter when it comes to the images and plays a vital role on Bulba.

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    I'm the scatman! AlexTheRose's Avatar
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    Default Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by adyniz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexTheRose View Post
    I have to agree with Twiggy on this one. What's so freaking scary and harmful about the Graphics Interchange format? It's not like its possible to make 32-bit APNGs without really expensive software anyway, all of our sprites are (or at least should be) 8-bit able as well, and who the hell animates photographs? If it is possible to do per-frame palettes, then I see much less problems with GIFs than with AniPNGs.

    The problem is the APNG format is to underdeveloped for converting tens of thousands of files to save some editor an extra click of the preview button, put simply. Don't we heavily encourage users to click that button as much as possible already?
    I beg to differ. GIFs quality sucks and leaves a really bad impression on the site overall, especially when we are talking about sprites, one the widely used images like them should never be in gif. Also, it is not just about the "extra click" otherwise we would have never implemented that NO JPG, only PNG rule. The quality does matter when it comes to the images and plays a vital role on Bulba.
    What you don't understand is that GBA and DS game sprites use 16 color palettes, so it really doesn't matter because 8-bit encompasses a 256-color palette with PNG and GIF. Original GB sprites use four colors, so do we really need to waste all of this extra work?

    The only real-time software I've seen is the AniPNG Group's GIF to APNG converter, which converts 8-bit GIFs to 8-bit PNGs, so you're getting the same exact quality as with any GIF. Does what you're saying really make sense to sacrifice all of this browser compatibility for (really) a more universal file extension? I think its just editors making others do the dirty work in the archives so they can be lazy in my opinion.
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  9. #9
    Surrender now or carry on Bikini Miltank's Avatar Bulbanews Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexTheRose View Post
    I think its just editors making others do the dirty work in the archives so they can be lazy in my opinion.
    See, I agree with your overall argument and have been making a similar case for a long time. But tossing around accusations like this isn't going to win people over to your side.

    Realistically, at this point the decision regarding animated PNGs has been in place for too long for it to be reversed. It sucks, but we now have so many of the things that going back would be impractical.

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    I'm the scatman! AlexTheRose's Avatar
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    Arrow Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexTheRose View Post
    I think its just editors making others do the dirty work in the archives so they can be lazy in my opinion.
    See, I agree with your overall argument and have been making a similar case for a long time. But tossing around accusations like this isn't going to win people over to your side.

    Realistically, at this point the decision regarding animated PNGs has been in place for too long for it to be reversed. It sucks, but we now have so many of the things that going back would be impractical.
    I have to agree with you on that – We're buried too deep to really dig ourselves out. Hopefully other independent wikis will learn from our mistake…

    I have a speculative idea: To keep it uniform, why not do all game sprites in Graphics Interchange? It's brilliant! I think it would work out neater than only the animated sprites having their own format on the file archives, instead incorporating all sprites into it. Most sprites are under the color limit and hardly ever use partial transparency, so I think it might be a win-win.
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  11. #11
    Very fruity and batty. Noivern's Avatar
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    Default Re: animated png

    If it's anything, you DON'T have to do it all at once. Do it, in a staggered way. It's not like we're in a rush or anything, but anything to make the Bulbapedia experience better for everyone. Even doing just a dozen of sprites every day can be a bit helpful.

    Maybe doing it starting with the most important stuff - front normal battle sprites - will help.

    I do NOT suggest converting APNGs for battle animations, though. Everything else, though? It's fair game.

    Making all future sprite uploads GIF-only will also go a long way towards making BP more accessible to everyone. The end result should be transparent to everyone.

    Last time I checked, Trident + WebKit combined is the majority of the browser market.

    Quote Originally Posted by adyniz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexTheRose View Post
    I have to agree with Twiggy on this one. What's so freaking scary and harmful about the Graphics Interchange format? It's not like its possible to make 32-bit APNGs without really expensive software anyway, all of our sprites are (or at least should be) 8-bit able as well, and who the hell animates photographs? If it is possible to do per-frame palettes, then I see much less problems with GIFs than with AniPNGs.

    The problem is the APNG format is to underdeveloped for converting tens of thousands of files to save some editor an extra click of the preview button, put simply. Don't we heavily encourage users to click that button as much as possible already?
    I beg to differ. GIFs quality sucks and leaves a really bad impression on the site overall, especially when we are talking about sprites, one the widely used images like them should never be in gif. Also, it is not just about the "extra click" otherwise we would have never implemented that NO JPG, only PNG rule. The quality does matter when it comes to the images and plays a vital role on Bulba.
    This statement has a problem with sprites: GIF by itself is a lossless format. It's just that it can only handle up to 8-bit colour palettes. However, it's precisely that this is of no concern to sprites... well, you get the idea.

    TL;DR version: APNGs make no sense for sprites.

    Past decisions can be, and sometimes, should be reversed... Even if it might mean work, one should be able to spread it. Heck, I could volunteer :)
    Last edited by Noivern; 28th March 2012 at 08:36 AM.
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  12. #12
    Fish fingers and custard Werdnae's Avatar Former Bulbapedia Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by ♪Twiggy♪ View Post
    If it's anything, you DON'T have to do it all at once.
    Actually, the way templates work, they do all have to be done at once. It has to be the same extension for every species so that we don't have to put every sprite on every species page manually.
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  13. #13
    Very fruity and batty. Noivern's Avatar
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    Default Re: animated png

    Quote Originally Posted by Werdnae View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ♪Twiggy♪ View Post
    If it's anything, you DON'T have to do it all at once.
    Actually, the way templates work, they do all have to be done at once. It has to be the same extension for every species so that we don't have to put every sprite on every species page manually.
    Pretty interesting to hear that. Is it possible to grab a list of all APNGs in use right now?
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  14. #14
    A real monstrosity SnorlaxMonster's Avatar Bulbanews Board of editorsBulbapedia StaffArchives Advisor
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    Default Re: animated png

    Honestly, I do agree that we should use GIF over APNG in sprites, since there is no quality loss. IIRC, TTE's reasoning for using APNGs was to help it become standard. That's not how we should operate. And besides that argument, the only other one was the one that was mentioned here, the "we're in too deep to go back now". If we do actually put in the effort, we can, generation-by-generation, upload them all as GIFs. Likewise, I really think area highlighted maps should be GIF, unless there are ones that do lose quality due to being in that format.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werdnae View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ♪Twiggy♪ View Post
    If it's anything, you DON'T have to do it all at once.
    Actually, the way templates work, they do all have to be done at once. It has to be the same extension for every species so that we don't have to put every sprite on every species page manually.
    If we were going to do it though, we would just slowly upload GIFs and not put them in use until all the GIFs of its type were uploaded.

    Also, I'm interested on what @APNG_Fan 's opinion on the matter is.

  15. #15
    Sphere Hunter Kogoro's Avatar Bulbapedia Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: animated png

    We have 4,206 categorized APNG images, replacing them all would take an extremely long time & then require multiple templates to be re-coded. Something I'd like to avoid, to be honest. Support for the format is growing, and there are ways to make them work on IE, Safari, and Chrome. I think it would be a quicker & more viable option to look into the script that we've been supplied here by @♪Twiggy♪
    Last edited by Kogoro; 29th March 2012 at 05:22 AM.
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