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  1. #226
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN View Post

    So? Your point is still invalid. Having Mega Evolution at all in the special is still promoting the new video games. And they could have easily given the Lizardon X evolution to Green if you insist on its presence being such a necessity.
    True, it could have been any Mega, but they wanted to use this special to tie together the original games and the new ones so it'd appeal to fans of the older games. So many of my friends played the old games but aren't interested in Pokemon much anymore, but when they heard about this series they watched it because it was a story that was familiar to them, and a handful of them looked in to the new games because of the 'new Charizard'. Of course it's promoting the new games, and it was a very clever way to go about it. I for one never expected anything new out of it, I was excited for the series for nostalgia reasons like many others.

    The megas were revealed before this, it wouldn't have been much of a surprise if it was a mega we already knew about. The series was a perfect way to introduce a new mega, and personally I LOVED the way they introduced Mega Charizard X in the battle against Mewtwo. Red was pretty clear in his reasoning for why he chose Charmander; it went with his name. Charizard was and still is a pretty popular Pokemon (it was the first Pokemon I ever trained, too.) If it had been a secondary Mega Blastoise or Venusaur, then he probably would have chose that, but GameFreak had went with a secondary Charizard Mega (probably most likely due to its popularity), had Red choose Charmander for his own reasoning to lead to its introduction. They certainly didn't have to include any Megas, but with the games coming out shortly after the series did, they certainly didn't waste their opportunity to promote them and give everyone another reason to be excited for the new games just as well.

    It's also true that any other trainer could have had one- but it goes back to that Red chose Charmander, and the Mega Stones were seemingly as unfamiliar to everyone in the series as they were to us at the time. If there wasn't a second Mega Charizard, Red (or whatever other trainer they chose to give the Mega Stones to) could have picked any starter Pokemon and they would have went with promoting that one, but there wouldn't have been anything new or exciting about it, not nearly as much as a brand new mega. They wanted to emphasize how unknown and special the Mega Stones were, so of course the main character would be the one to receive it and use it for the first time. That's what made the whole thing so ~special~

    Watching this live and being like "what the fuck is this new Charizard oh my god" is by far my favorite Pokemon anime experience, nothing ever caught me off guard as much as that did. I loved the series as a whole even before the reveal and could already stand on its own for what it was, but that reveal definitely made it more special.
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    The best pokemon episodes I've ever seen!

  3. #228
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by Araragi-hakase View Post
    True, it could have been any Mega, but they wanted to use this special to tie together the original games and the new ones so it'd appeal to fans of the older games. So many of my friends played the old games but aren't interested in Pokemon much anymore, but when they heard about this series they watched it because it was a story that was familiar to them, and a handful of them looked in to the new games because of the 'new Charizard'. Of course it's promoting the new games, and it was a very clever way to go about it. I for one never expected anything new out of it, I was excited for the series for nostalgia reasons like many others.

    The megas were revealed before this, it wouldn't have been much of a surprise if it was a mega we already knew about. The series was a perfect way to introduce a new mega, and personally I LOVED the way they introduced Mega Charizard X in the battle against Mewtwo. Red was pretty clear in his reasoning for why he chose Charmander; it went with his name. Charizard was and still is a pretty popular Pokemon (it was the first Pokemon I ever trained, too.) If it had been a secondary Mega Blastoise or Venusaur, then he probably would have chose that, but GameFreak had went with a secondary Charizard Mega (probably most likely due to its popularity), had Red choose Charmander for his own reasoning to lead to its introduction. They certainly didn't have to include any Megas, but with the games coming out shortly after the series did, they certainly didn't waste their opportunity to promote them and give everyone another reason to be excited for the new games just as well.

    It's also true that any other trainer could have had one- but it goes back to that Red chose Charmander, and the Mega Stones were seemingly as unfamiliar to everyone in the series as they were to us at the time. If there wasn't a second Mega Charizard, Red (or whatever other trainer they chose to give the Mega Stones to) could have picked any starter Pokemon and they would have went with promoting that one, but there wouldn't have been anything new or exciting about it, not nearly as much as a brand new mega. They wanted to emphasize how unknown and special the Mega Stones were, so of course the main character would be the one to receive it and use it for the first time. That's what made the whole thing so ~special~

    Watching this live and being like "what the fuck is this new Charizard oh my god" is by far my favorite Pokemon anime experience, nothing ever caught me off guard as much as that did. I loved the series as a whole even before the reveal and could already stand on its own for what it was, but that reveal definitely made it more special.
    Thank you for elaborating on what I was trying to say.
    I watched it live too and I was so surprised that I got confused and at first thought they mis-colored Mega Charizard Y as some sort of lighting thing, then noticed it looked different I was mis-remembering how it looks, then they showed that it's an alternate mega evolution and I thought Ah, that explains it.

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    Registered User scrambled_togepi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN View Post
    The dex quest (Red and Green) is an uninteresting overall goal for a journey,
    I thought Pokemon Origins adapted that quest very well. Red's dedication to that goal being tied to his love of Pokemon and the stuff he accomplishes being tied directly to that make him very likable. Red clashing with Blue's philosophy on Pokemon battling in episode 1 and changing his strategy to complete the Pokedex because of that make Blue a much better rival then I found him in the games. Using the Champion Battle as a stepping stone to show Red's ability to fill the Pokedex, and the battle with Mewtwo as the true ending made for a very satisfying ending for that quest. Speaking of Mewtwo, Red putting together the details of Mewtwo's existence before battling him shows just how far Red has come in his ability to track down and catch Pokemon. The final scene where scene where Red goes out to find Mew perfectly captures the spirit of discovery that Pokemon games exemplify.

    HP bars - a video game mechanic - totally take away the suspension of disbelief in film, and a proper animated take on the plot is sacrificed to carry along a barebones interpretation of a barebones game.
    I didn't find the HP bar too weird. It was only shown in the official Pokemon league battles on massive screens, so clearly there is some sort of technology that can read pokemon stamina. It's not like the HP bars are just floating in mid air.
    Tentative pokemon Black team:

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    本物の神様 FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by scrambled_togepi View Post
    I thought Pokemon Origins adapted that quest very well.
    My problem was that they even adapted it to begin with; making it Red's main goal. The campaign in the video game focuses much more on becoming a stronger trainer through the badge quest and taking out the Rockets, with the quest of completing the Zukan (which, unlike the special, wasn't the reason Red and Green received their starters to begin with) as a non-requirement and merely serving as something to complement the multiplayer aspect of trading. Being only a 4-episode special, I can pass it off as pure fanservice fun without railing on it too much, but if this was a full-fledged anime series that used an RPG game that has all the elements set-up for a shounen-esque battle anime (a journey to become stronger, true companions, monster battling, an antagonist to defeat, a rival that's one step ahead of you, etc.) as a basis, but threw that potential out to instead be everything seen in the Origin (only extended), I would personally write it off as shoddy anime adaptation. Like how the Shining Hearts: Shiawase no Pan anime downplayed the main plot of the RPG to exemplify... baking bread.

    The other incarnation of Red in the main anime series (Satoshi) already goes through the problem of having writers who have trouble finding a way to properly write about rotating more than six Pokemon from one region in his team. In contrast, the Red in the Origin is clearly capable of rotating his team, but has so many reserves that his Pokemon aren't able to stand out as their own characters, because the only one that really sticks around is Lizardon. In the various Pokemon manga series and the anime (and arguably the games as well, to some extent), the main protagonists usually have a maximum of 6~12 Pokemon they ever use on their team+reserves which varies with the series length (in Satoshi's case, per region), and because of the workable numbers in comparison to the number of chapters they have to work with, the writers are able to portray a good amount of each team member as their own unique character and showcase/develop the bond between them and their trainer (true companions). In the Origin: four episodes, 150 Pokemon, and only one Pokemon in Red's team stood out (Lizardon). Everyone else is reduced to capture fodder.

    (Aside from that, honestly, it's not hard to add an element of discovery in the spirit of the Red/Green games without requiring Red to capture every single Pokemon. And personally, simply finding Thunder and Freezer in the original games gave me that satisfactory "Oh shit!" feeling rewarded for taking a detour into unknown areas of the world that the game didn't require me to. Catching them, a task originally difficult without the Master Ball, was just a bonus.)

    I didn't find the HP bar too weird. It was only shown in the official Pokemon league battles on massive screens, so clearly there is some sort of technology that can read pokemon stamina. It's not like the HP bars are just floating in mid air.
    Had this been a full-fledged anime series, HP bars during major battles like the Gyms is still just as bad and take away from the suspense of the battle. There are commonly battles in comics and animation, for example, where two characters are at a stalemate, and there's a point where it's not clear (even to in-universe spectators) who dealt the final blow until one character manages to collapse first. But battles like that aren't possible when you utilize HP bars - the hero or the enemy would be declared defeat even before they collapse, or we wouldn't get to that point either way because the Pokemon should be knocked out immediately as seen as its HP is depleted as seen in the special. It's just very limiting when you write a battle and utilize HP bars, when the story you're writing doesn't take place in a game in-universe and is a fantasy setting.

    And it's not hard to imagine a lot of Deus Ex Machina bullshit happening in the vein of Sword Art Online, where there's a bunch of LOL NOPE, I'M BACK WITH 1 HP 8D moments. DEM is possible with or without HP bars, but HP bars tend to be annoying in this regard because you have a character using his/her willpower to fight statistics. That's why I'm also against the idea of moves like Cat's Paw/Assist or Metronome being available to main protagonists within the Pocket Monsters adaptations, because it allows "Anime/Manga RNG god" bullshit to happen.

    HP aside, curb-stomps were one of the special's negative points in general. If there ever was a Gold/Silver special set in the same universe, I'll find it highly hilarious if Hibiki curb-stomps Red with one Pokemon in the same vein as Red did with almost everyone in his special. Red spamming Lizardon's Fire-type attacks on Green's Kamex and somehow taking chunks out of its HP bar will always be a moment I find strangely overpraised by particular fans for whatever reason. Were the writers pulling a DEM because of time constraints, or did Red over-level? Either way, both reasons are pretty bad, though the first is at least understandable and is probably the most likely (still wouldn't doubt the latter though, considering how much Lizardon was used and curbstomped in the entire special, plus the strong emphasis on game mechanics).

    Again, as a 4-episode special, it was made to be nostalgic fanservice for fans and it does a pretty good job of doing that even if it isn't a particularly good anime. But if this was seriously a 1+ cour anime, I would be a lot more harsh with it. When *I* say I want a better Pocket Monsters anime than the current incarnations of the Pocket Monsters main series anime, what I saw from Pocket Monsters The Origin simply isn't it. I do prefer it over the modern main series anime, but I'd still be settling for less.
    Last edited by FANG-TAN; 22nd February 2014 at 05:09 PM.

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  6. #231
    Registered User scrambled_togepi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN View Post

    My problem was that they even adapted it to begin with; making it Red's main goal. The campaign in the video game focuses much more on becoming a stronger trainer through the badge quest and taking out the Rockets,
    The Key word their is "through." It is not his goal. He becomes stronger through beating the league and team rocket to complete the Pokedex.

    with the quest of completing the Zukan (which, unlike the special, wasn't the reason Red and Green received their starters to begin with) as a non-requirement and merely serving as something to complement the multiplayer aspect of trading. Being only a 4-episode special, I can pass it off as pure fanservice fun without railing on it too much, but if this was a full-fledged anime series that used an RPG game that has all the elements set-up for a shounen-esque battle anime (a journey to become stronger, true companions, monster battling, an antagonist to defeat, a rival that's one step ahead of you, etc.) as a basis, but threw that potential out to instead be everything seen in the Origin (only extended), I would personally write it off as shoddy anime adaptation. Like how the Shining Hearts: Shiawase no Pan anime downplayed the main plot of the RPG to exemplify... baking bread.
    The game makes it quite clear That Professor Oak gives Blue a Pokemon to help him complete the Pokedex. Considering he called Red at the same time and has two Pokedexes it is safe to say that is also the reason he gave Red a Pokemon.

    As soon as Red returns with Oak's Parcel Blue comes back to ask what Professor Oak needed him to do. Professor Oak gives them a Pokedex and asks them to help him complete it.


    The other incarnation of Red in the main anime series (Satoshi) already goes through the problem of having writers who have trouble finding a way to properly write about rotating more than six Pokemon from one region in his team. In contrast, the Red in the Origin is clearly capable of rotating his team, but has so many reserves that his Pokemon aren't able to stand out as their own characters, because the only one that really sticks around is Lizardon. In the various Pokemon manga series and the anime (and arguably the games as well, to some extent), the main protagonists usually have a maximum of 6~12 Pokemon they ever use on their team+reserves which varies with the series length (in Satoshi's case, per region), and because of the workable numbers in comparison to the number of chapters they have to work with, the writers are able to portray a good amount of each team member as their own unique character and showcase/develop the bond between them and their trainer (true companions). In the Origin: four episodes, 150 Pokemon, and only one Pokemon in Red's team stood out (Lizardon). Everyone else is reduced to capture fodder.
    As you said it is because Pokemon Origins is only 4 episodes that Charizard is the only Pokemon that gets any attention. This does not matter in Origins anyway because it is Red's story. It is his relationships with other human characters that is developed through their love (or apathy) of Pokemon. I'd argue that a story of relationships with people is much more relatable then a story of relationships with monsters.

    (Aside from that, honestly, it's not hard to add an element of discovery in the spirit of the Red/Green games without requiring Red to capture every single Pokemon. And personally, simply finding Thunder and Freezer in the original games gave me that satisfactory "Oh shit!" feeling rewarded for taking a detour into unknown areas of the world that the game didn't require me to. Catching them, a task originally difficult without the Master Ball, was just a bonus.)
    The mystery of Mew's existence is what made Pokemon a hit in the first place. Something catching Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres could not compare to.

    I didn't find the HP bar too weird. It was only shown in the official Pokemon league battles on massive screens, so clearly there is some sort of technology that can read pokemon stamina. It's not like the HP bars are just floating in mid air.
    Had this been a full-fledged anime series, HP bars during major battles like the Gyms is still just as bad and take away from the suspense of the battle. There are commonly battles in comics and animation, for example, where two characters are at a stalemate, and there's a point where it's not clear (even to in-universe spectators) who dealt the final blow until one character manages to collapse first. But battles like that aren't possible when you utilize HP bars - the hero or the enemy would be declared defeat even before they collapse, or we wouldn't get to that point either way because the Pokemon should be knocked out immediately as seen as its HP is depleted as seen in the special. It's just very limiting when you write a battle and utilize HP bars, when the story you're writing doesn't take place in a game in-universe and is a fantasy setting.
    There is no guarantee the camera will show the HP screen when the final hit is dealt. More importantly, that is one of many satisfying ways to end a battle.

    Clearly you have not participated in many PVP Pokemon battles. That little HP box means nothing when you don't know what moves each Pokemon has or what pokemon each trainer is using. Between status moves, recovery moves, speed priority moves, hold items, and abilities there are plenty of ways to keep battles interesting.
    The only thing that took away from the suspense in Pokemon Origins was the time limit. There really wasn't enough time for Red to lose.

    And it's not hard to imagine a lot of Deus Ex Machina bullshit happening in the vein of Sword Art Online, where there's a bunch of LOL NOPE, I'M BACK WITH 1 HP 8D moments. DEM is possible with or without HP bars, but HP bars tend to be annoying in this regard because you have a character using his/her willpower to fight statistics. That's why I'm also against the idea of moves like Cat's Paw/Assist or Metronome being available to main protagonists within the Pocket Monsters adaptations, because it allows "Anime/Manga RNG god" bullshit to happen.
    It's funny because Pokemon Amie makes shrugging off potential 1 hit KOs and status conditions with will power possible in the game.

    HP aside, curb-stomps were one of the special's negative points in general. If there ever was a Gold/Silver special set in the same universe, I'll find it highly hilarious if Hibiki curb-stomps Red with one Pokemon in the same vein as Red did with almost everyone in his special. Red spamming Lizardon's Fire-type attacks on Green's Kamex and somehow taking chunks out of its HP bar will always be a moment I find strangely overpraised by particular fans for whatever reason. Were the writers pulling a DEM because of time constraints, or did Red over-level? Either way, both reasons are pretty bad, though the first is at least understandable and is probably the most likely (still wouldn't doubt the latter though, considering how much Lizardon was used and curbstomped in the entire special, plus the strong emphasis on game mechanics).
    As improbable as Red beating Blue's Blastoise was it is a perfectly reasonable tactic for someone on their last Pokemon fighting the Champion and possible in generation 1 and 3-6. Taking advantage of Charizard's high special attack and STAB boost for Fire Blast really was his best shot at beating Blue at that point. Depending on what game mechanics were affecting the battle it may have gotten another 50% boost from Blaze, or immobilized Blastoise with Fire Spin giving him an opening to spam attacks.
    120x0.5x1.5 STAB= 90 which is still pretty strong. With a Blaze boost that is 135. If that were also a critical hit Fire Blast's power could be as high as 270.
    Giovanni pointing out the possibility of Charizard being over-leveled may have been foreshadowing.

    As I said before the 4 episode run did not give Red much time to lose, and I agree that did hurt suspense.

    Again, as a 4-episode special, it was made to be nostalgic fanservice for fans and it does a pretty good job of doing that even if it isn't a particularly good anime. But if this was seriously a 1+ cour anime, I would be a lot more harsh with it. When *I* say I want a better Pocket Monsters anime than the current incarnations of the Pocket Monsters main series anime, what I saw from Pocket Monsters The Origin simply isn't it. I do prefer it over the modern main series anime, but I'd still be settling for less.
    At this point our disagreements are pretty minimal. I don't think Pokemon Origins is the anime Pokemon deserves, but it is on the right track.
    Tentative pokemon Black team:

    1.Oshawott; 2. Blitzel.; 3. Zorua; 4. Victini; 5. Deino; 6. Reshiram

  7. #232
    本物の神様 FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by scrambled_togepi View Post
    The Key word their is "through." It is not his goal. He becomes stronger through beating the league and team rocket to complete the Pokedex.
    Huh? His desire to catch every single (Generation I) Pokemon and beating the league/Rocket organization do not correlate with each other.

    On that note, I find it funny that even though Kalos is directly referenced in the Origin plus one painting containing a Gen II Pokemon (meaning that the Origin isn't a continuity where Gen I/Kanto are the only things that exist), all the Kanto experts and crap act as if there's still only 149~150 (and then 151 after Red rationalizes that Mew exists).

    The game makes it quite clear That Professor Oak gives Blue a Pokemon to help him complete the Pokedex. Considering he called Red at the same time and has two Pokedexes it is safe to say that is also the reason he gave Red a Pokemon.

    As soon as Red returns with Oak's Parcel Blue comes back to ask what Professor Oak needed him to do. Professor Oak gives them a Pokedex and asks them to help him complete it.
    I've looked into a script dump of the English version of the game to refresh my memory. It sounds a lot more like a favor than *the* reason why he gave them those Pokemon. Considering he could have given them the two encyclopedias when they were at the lab to begin with.

    My interpretation of it was "Oh yeah, since you're going on a journey and catching Pokemon anyway, why not try and fill up the dex on the way there?" Like, I don't think he was going to yank the Pokemon away from the boys if they said no (though the poor man may have cried himself to death).

    As you said it is because Pokemon Origins is only 4 episodes that Charizard is the only Pokemon that gets any attention. This does not matter in Origins anyway because it is Red's story. It is his relationships with other human characters that is developed through their love (or apathy) of Pokemon. I'd argue that a story of relationships with people is much more relatable then a story of relationships with monsters.
    There's nothing wrong with having both. If this was a full-fledged anime, I would expect human relationships to be as developed as the relationships between the main character and his Pokemon companions. Otherwise those awesome trainer designs would go to waste as throwaway characters.

    In an adaptation of a JRPG game called Pocket Monsters, where monsters make up your party instead of D&D humanoid archetypes, I expect them to stand out as characters just as much as the humans.

    The mystery of Mew's existence is what made Pokemon a hit in the first place.
    Well, never said there was anything particularly wrong with The Origin's portrayal of Mew or the fact Red sought out to catch it at the end. But I do think the (classic) anime continuity did a good job of delving into how mysterious Mew's existence is through the drama CD chapters, without the need of there being a capture plot centering around it.

    By the way, that's a bold claim to make. There were many factors that made Pocket Monsters a hit in Japan, and outside territories, that don't have anything to do with Mew (which was a secret when the games were released in 1996). If it wasn't the hardcore/cute monsters or the addictive gameplay that helped it catch on, then I'd find that pretty sad in all honesty. lol

    There is no guarantee the camera will show the HP screen when the final hit is dealt. More importantly, that is one of many satisfying ways to end a battle.
    It's a bit silly for no one in-universe to declare a victory right then and there after an HP bar is depleted even if both Pokemon are still barely standing. And if their stamina is depleted, wouldn't they just collapse anyway instead of showcasing the last bit of their, well, stamina? That's what HP bars are...

    Clearly you have not participated in many PVP Pokemon battles.
    I have; as the system became more streamlined, I raise teams with competition in mind (and let me tell you: I have many problems with the bullcrap people pull with Mega Garura and broken Kinogassa Toxic Orb+Spore+Substitute+Toxic Heal combos whenever I get into a random match on Battle Spot :/ ).

    That said, I feel that a Pocket Monsters anime/manga needs to be less of a video game and more of a, well, anime/manga. Whatever gameplay there is, be it single player or multi-player, should be adapted with gameplay and story segregation in mind. Unless it's like, a parody or actually a story about a video game or something.

    That little HP box means nothing when you don't know what moves each Pokemon has or what pokemon each trainer is using. Between status moves, recovery moves, speed priority moves, hold items, and abilities there are plenty of ways to keep battles interesting.
    And in order for HP bars to work, they'd have to forgo game accuracy and make it drop more steadily as the writer calls or have everything be like a game simulation in order to ascertain the genuine lack of asspulls. In which case, it's better not to include HP bars at all. The battles could be as long as they want and are allowed more flexibility with the usage of battle mechanics that are easy to successfully represent in shounen battle animation/literature without the existence of hit points. They're not necessary, especially since here they only have them during notable battles. Remember the brutal battle between Zenigame and Hitokage at the beginning of the special? That was totally fine and there's really no reason for Gym/League battles not to follow that template and drop the hit points, other than "this is a video game!" fanservice.

    It's funny because Pokemon Amie makes shrugging off potential 1 hit KOs and status conditions with will power possible in the game.
    Which I thought was one of the cons of XY, making an already casual game even easier.

    The extra benefits of Amie/Parler would be such an awful feature to adapt in a Pocket Monsters anime/manga. It's literally justifying DEMs.

    As improbable as Red beating Blue's Blastoise was it is a perfectly reasonable tactic for someone on their last Pokemon fighting the Champion and possible in generation 1 and 3-6. Taking advantage of Charizard's high special attack and STAB boost for Fire Blast really was his best shot at beating Blue at that point. Depending on what game mechanics were affecting the battle it may have gotten another 50% boost from Blaze, or immobilized Blastoise with Fire Spin giving him an opening to spam attacks.
    120x0.5x1.5 STAB= 90 which is still pretty strong. With a Blaze boost that is 135. If that were also a critical hit Fire Blast's power could be as high as 270.
    Giovanni pointing out the possibility of Charizard being over-leveled may have been foreshadowing.
    The wonders of raising only your starter in the main story campaign. Haha, man, if this was a 100% serious week-to-week anime, I wouldn't be watching it. (Though on the subject of Blaze and an immobilizing Fire Spin, I wonder if the Origin was using the Gen I battle system or the modern battle system? I mean, the designs are modern, but things like the TMs say otherwise...)

    That battle was probably my least favorite battle in the special. In terms of a Red vs. Green final battle, I'd take the main anime's old school equivalent of Satoshi and Shigeru's water vs. fire any day. The victory isn't something you can do in the games, but it makes sense in animation/comics, and it was honestly an unorthodox and unique way of overcoming the type disadvantage. Perhaps the Origin Red could have come up with something similar in a small amount of time, unless an invisible voice in his head tells him "There's a time and place for everything."

    At this point our disagreements are pretty minimal. I don't think Pokemon Origins is the anime Pokemon deserves, but it is on the right track.
    Conclusion is certainly one of those traits that should be carried over. While it was only 4 episodes, at least Red *did* have some type of closure to his story, unlike his main anime counterpart whose conclusion was extended indefinitely after they decided to make the main anime a long-runner due to popularity.
    Last edited by FANG-TAN; 23rd February 2014 at 03:51 PM. Reason: lol "ream". raggy i rove rooby racks

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  8. #233
    Registered User scrambled_togepi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN View Post
    On that note, I find it funny that even though Kalos is directly referenced in the Origin plus one painting containing a Gen II Pokemon (meaning that the Origin isn't a continuity where Gen I/Kanto are the only things that exist), all the Kanto experts and crap act as if there's still only 149~150 (and then 151 after Red rationalizes that Mew exists).
    I just assume they are referring to the regional Pokedex. Red and Blue would have no reason to specify Regional or National Pokedex until Professor Oak updated their Pokedexes and Oak is never shown doing that.

    The game makes it quite clear That Professor Oak gives Blue a Pokemon to help him complete the Pokedex. Considering he called Red at the same time and has two Pokedexes it is safe to say that is also the reason he gave Red a Pokemon.

    As soon as Red returns with Oak's Parcel Blue comes back to ask what Professor Oak needed him to do. Professor Oak gives them a Pokedex and asks them to help him complete it.
    I've looked into a script dump of the English version of the game to refresh my memory. It sounds a lot more like a favor than *the* reason why he gave them those Pokemon. Considering he could have given them the two encyclopedias when they were at the lab to begin with.

    My interpretation of it was "Oh yeah, since you're going on a journey and catching Pokemon anyway, why not try and fill up the dex on the way there?" Like, I don't think he was going to yank the Pokemon away from the boys if they said no (though the poor man may have cried himself to death).
    I just can't see him giving them Pokemon for kicks, or asking them to complete his life dream as a completely separate favor. Also, I was under the impression that Blue ran off before Oak had a chance to ask about the Pokedex. Hence Blue returning and asking what Professor Oak wanted him to do. It's not like Red and Blue had any other goal at that point. They did not even have Pokeballs.

    I suppose either interpretation works. It's probably somewhere in between. Blue clearly cares more about battling then completing the Pokedex, and Red does not have a clear goal at that point since he's a mime. He could just want to be the lucky Youngster with a lv 5 Charmander hanging out on Rout 2.

    As you said it is because Pokemon Origins is only 4 episodes that Charizard is the only Pokemon that gets any attention. This does not matter in Origins anyway because it is Red's story. It is his relationships with other human characters that is developed through their love (or apathy) of Pokemon. I'd argue that a story of relationships with people is much more relatable then a story of relationships with monsters.
    There's nothing wrong with having both. If this was a full-fledged anime, I would expect human relationships to be as developed as the relationships between the main character and his Pokemon companions. Otherwise those awesome trainer designs would go to waste as throwaway characters.

    In an adaptation of a JRPG game called Pocket Monsters, where monsters make up your party instead of D&D humanoid archetypes, I expect them to stand out as characters just as much as the humans.
    I agree that the Pokemon should be distinct characters. It's just that human character development is more important for a story and the special barely had time for that. The Pokemon Red uses for battle could have had plenty of development if it was even 26 episodes long. I could definitely see stories about Red bonding with Bellsprout on rout 24 and training it to battle Misty, or meeting a Diglet that would help him through Diglet tunnel.

    The mystery of Mew's existence is what made Pokemon a hit in the first place.
    Well, never said there was anything particularly wrong with The Origin's portrayal of Mew or the fact Red sought out to catch it at the end. But I do think the (classic) anime continuity did a good job of delving into how mysterious Mew's existence is through the drama CD chapters, without the need of there being a capture plot centering around it.
    I've never read translations of these drama CDs. I had no idea they exist, so I can't comment on them. I am interested in reading them though.

    I was just using Mew's scene as an example of how Origins adapted the Pokedex quest well. I was also kinda fanboy-ing because I really like that ending. There is no need for Red to capture Mew either. Personally, I don't want him to because Mew represents the idea that there will always be more Pokemon to discover so well as long is it is undiscovered. There are plenty of event Pokemon that could fill that role, but Mew is the only one called by name outside of events, so the game is just teasing the player to hunt for something that they will never find.

    Maybe Red heard a rumor Mew was under a truck at the top of Mt. Silver and he spent 3 years searching for it there.

    By the way, that's a bold claim to make. There were many factors that made Pocket Monsters a hit in Japan, and outside territories, that don't have anything to do with Mew (which was a secret when the games were released in 1996). If it wasn't the hardcore/cute monsters or the addictive gameplay that helped it catch on, then I'd find that pretty sad in all honesty. lol
    You are right. I don't think I could of overstated that more. The rumors of a 151st Pokemon hidden in the game created a lot of buzz and did have an effect on the popularity of the series though.

    There is no guarantee the camera will show the HP screen when the final hit is dealt. More importantly, that is one of many satisfying ways to end a battle.
    It's a bit silly for no one in-universe to declare a victory right then and there after an HP bar is depleted even if both Pokemon are still barely standing. And if their stamina is depleted, wouldn't they just collapse anyway instead of showcasing the last bit of their, well, stamina? That's what HP bars are...
    It's not hard to come up with a distraction for someone not to declare a winner immediately. If both Pokemon are barely standing then showing the HP bars in the red doesn't spoil anything. The Pokemon with the higher speed wins. Show the attack and cut to the status screen. If the Pokemon keeps getting back up it is either taking large chunks of damage but not being KOed, or getting up after being KOed. Pokemon battles are not like boxing you only get 1 KO. Letting a Pokemon who has just woken up after a KO to battle is cruel and irresponsible. The trainer should be disqualified.

    They already did display their last bit of stamina when they were in the red. I'm just not seeing a significant difference. The HP bar may limit writing a little the few times it is used but it's not enough for me to care.

    Clearly you have not participated in many PVP Pokemon battles.
    I have; as the system became more streamlined, I raise teams with competition in mind (and let me tell you: I have many problems with the bullcrap people pull with Mega Garura and broken Kinogassa Toxic Orb+Spore+Substitute+Toxic Heal combos whenever I get into a random match on Battle Spot :/ ).
    I can relate. Clearly Came Freak has issues balancing Pokemon for the battle system and balancing Pokemon as characters.

    That said, I feel that a Pocket Monsters anime/manga needs to be less of a video game and more of a, well, anime/manga. Whatever gameplay there is, be it single player or multi-player, should be adapted with gameplay and story segregation in mind. Unless it's like, a parody or actually a story about a video game or something.
    I think there is a lot of potential for interesting game battle strategies to be adapted but overall I agree.


    That little HP box means nothing when you don't know what moves each Pokemon has or what pokemon each trainer is using. Between status moves, recovery moves, speed priority moves, hold items, and abilities there are plenty of ways to keep battles interesting.
    And in order for HP bars to work, they'd have to forgo game accuracy and make it drop more steadily as the writer calls or have everything be like a game simulation in order to ascertain the genuine lack of asspulls. In which case, it's better not to include HP bars at all. The battles could be as long as they want and are allowed more flexibility with the usage of battle mechanics that are easy to successfully represent in shounen battle animation/literature without the existence of hit points. They're not necessary, especially since here they only have them during notable battles. Remember the brutal battle between Zenigame and Hitokage at the beginning of the special? That was totally fine and there's really no reason for Gym/League battles not to follow that template and drop the hit points, other than "this is a video game!" fanservice.
    Considering the variables that determine damage and attack order it would not be necessary to go through a battle simulator.

    It's funny because Pokemon Amie makes shrugging off potential 1 hit KOs and status conditions with will power possible in the game.
    Which I thought was one of the cons of XY, making an already casual game even easier.

    The extra benefits of Amie/Parler would be such an awful feature to adapt in a Pocket Monsters anime/manga. It's literally justifying DEMs.
    I think it was great that the game finally has a significant bit of gameplay to back up the dialog about the player not abusing Pokemon. Before Pokemon Amie the closest thing the games had to showing that was the friendship stat, and the little known detail that if the friendship stat is falling you probably aren't playing the game well. As a general rule I don't complain about optional features.

    For something to be a DEM there would have to be no foreshadowing. Pokemon Amie creates foreshadowing so no it would not justify DEMs. It would still feel cheap in anime or manga in most cases though. The only exception would be in a Ash vs Paul like situation where the whole point is to show the benefits of bonding with Pokemon.


    As improbable as Red beating Blue's Blastoise was it is a perfectly reasonable tactic for someone on their last Pokemon fighting the Champion and possible in generation 1 and 3-6. Taking advantage of Charizard's high special attack and STAB boost for Fire Blast really was his best shot at beating Blue at that point. Depending on what game mechanics were affecting the battle it may have gotten another 50% boost from Blaze, or immobilized Blastoise with Fire Spin giving him an opening to spam attacks.
    120x0.5x1.5 STAB= 90 which is still pretty strong. With a Blaze boost that is 135. If that were also a critical hit Fire Blast's power could be as high as 270.
    Giovanni pointing out the possibility of Charizard being over-leveled may have been foreshadowing.
    The wonders of raising only your starter in the main story campaign. Haha, man, if this was a 100% serious week-to-week anime, I wouldn't be watching it. (Though on the subject of Blaze and an immobilizing Fire Spin, I wonder if the Origin was using the Gen I battle system or the modern battle system? I mean, the designs are modern, but things like the TMs say otherwise...)
    It's probably a mix of both. It was made to invoke feelings of nostalgia for generation 1 and promote X and Y. I think it leans more towards generation 1 considering Blastoise's lack of movement in Fire Spin, there being no mention of Pokemon Abilities, the TM Red receives from Brock being Bide, and Moltres being found inside a Cave. It could be Mt. Silver but considering this is based off of gen 1 it is probably meant to be Victory Road.

    That battle was probably my least favorite battle in the special. In terms of a Red vs. Green final battle, I'd take the main anime's old school equivalent of Satoshi and Shigeru's water vs. fire any day. The victory isn't something you can do in the games, but it makes sense in animation/comics, and it was honestly an unorthodox and unique way of overcoming the type disadvantage. Perhaps the Origin Red could have come up with something similar in a small amount of time, unless an invisible voice in his head tells him "There's a time and place for everything."
    I agree, but I'm okay with it because it was not meant to be the final battle. It is there to show how Red and Blue have grown and it does that.

    At this point our disagreements are pretty minimal. I don't think Pokemon Origins is the anime Pokemon deserves, but it is on the right track.
    Conclusion is certainly one of those traits that should be carried over. While it was only 4 episodes, at least Red *did* have some type of closure to his story, unlike his main anime counterpart whose conclusion was extended indefinitely after they decided to make the main anime a long-runner due to popularity.
    Agreed.

    Let me be clear about this. I like how Pokemon Origins adapted the Pokedex quest as Red's main goal and Origins Red may be my favorite version of the character because of that, but I don't want it to be Ethan's goal in (the hopeful) Pokemon Origins Gold and Silver. Part of what I like about Pokemon Special is that it uses different quests for each saga, and part of what I don't like about the Pokemon anime is that it repeats the same quest. The games themselves use the Gym quest as a structural tool for a coming of age story with a unique story or stories interweaved with that.

    I could see Ethan's goal being to become a strong trainer because the final battle would Presumably be against Red, or it could be about Ethan trying to find a goal for himself eventually settling on seeking strong trainers to battle.
    FANG-TAN likes this.
    Tentative pokemon Black team:

    1.Oshawott; 2. Blitzel.; 3. Zorua; 4. Victini; 5. Deino; 6. Reshiram

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    Default Re: Pokemon: The Origin

    Quote Originally Posted by scrambled_togepi View Post
    I just assume they are referring to the regional Pokedex. Red and Blue would have no reason to specify Regional or National Pokedex until Professor Oak updated their Pokedexes and Oak is never shown doing that.
    Well, practically speaking, the regional dex is all that mattered in this special. Including the legendary Pokemon and the elusive Mew (which, if we're going by region, technically shouldn't count to Red since it was said to be in South America in the mansion reports; this is assuming the reports are the same as they are in the game's canon), it seemed to me that they really didn't have any idea what exactly made up the Pokemon population in Kanto, let alone the world put together.

    I mean, if Red was so excited that there was one more Pokemon out there to catch (Mew, which could be anywhere as far as he knew), he might as well be just as excited to catch the 700+ other Pokemon from other regions, right? That's why I chalked it up to RGBY-pandering superseding logical world-building in this case.

    I just can't see him giving them Pokemon for kicks, or asking them to complete his life dream as a completely separate favor. Also, I was under the impression that Blue ran off before Oak had a chance to ask about the Pokedex. Hence Blue returning and asking what Professor Oak wanted him to do. It's not like Red and Blue had any other goal at that point. They did not even have Pokeballs.

    I suppose either interpretation works. It's probably somewhere in between. Blue clearly cares more about battling then completing the Pokedex, and Red does not have a clear goal at that point since he's a mime. He could just want to be the lucky Youngster with a lv 5 Charmander hanging out on Rout 2.
    I think the problem lies in how the rest of the game never really echoed his request all that much. There were plenty of players that had the badges and the Rockets on their mind, and generally "beating the game" as a priority goal, simply because the dex quest quickly became a side-quest, despite *possibly* being the reason why Dr. Orchid sent Red on his journey to begin with.

    It's clear when you look at other canons written by other writers. There's a few old Pocket Monsters manga and the 90s Pocket Monsters anime, which completely drop the dex quest as a goal for their Reds while adapting the Red/Green story. That even includes Zensho, which was a textbook cut-and-paste adaptation of the video game. Then we have the Pocket Monsters Special manga, which *does* reference Dr. Orchid's desire for Red to complete the Pokemon Zukan, only for Red to totally forget about it in favor of his own goals much like the actual players of the game.

    The professor himself doesn't help much in-game either. After sending a couple of kids to complete his "life's dream", he could at least give you free Monster Balls right off the bat. Instead, he gives you only 5 under very miss-able conditions.

    I agree that the Pokemon should be distinct characters. It's just that human character development is more important for a story and the special barely had time for that. The Pokemon Red uses for battle could have had plenty of development if it was even 26 episodes long. I could definitely see stories about Red bonding with Bellsprout on rout 24 and training it to battle Misty, or meeting a Diglet that would help him through Diglet tunnel.
    I agree. But that's assuming they don't have Red randomly rotate his 100+ Pokemon throughout this hypothetical anime like he did in the Origin. The Origin could have easily been better in this regard, despite the length, had they given Red a steady team of six identifiable Pokemon instead of merely regulating his bond to just Lizardon. Even if these Pokemon would inevitably be denied of true substantial screen-time individually, at the very least, they could have made time to portray a group bond.

    Aside from that, part of the reason why I want them to drop the dex quest in a full-fledged Pocket Monsters anime, is that it demeans the main character by having him treat the rest of his 100+ Pokemon as capture fodder and leaving them to rot in the boxes (or the old man's backyard). And even if he rotates them, it'd lead to a situation like the Origin, where everyone ends up being forgettable aside from his starter. At that point, they're no longer characters to me, only tools for battle. For gameplay's sake, I obviously have no problems with capture fodder in the video games, but in an anime/manga adaptation, I'd highly prefer they drop the collecting in favor of more humanized portrayals.

    But I wouldn't mind if they went the Pocket Monsters Special route and have a character like Crystal be in charge for collecting Pokemon for research. It's just that, with the main character, in order to intermix the core gameplay aspect of the game (battling) with plot, having a pronounced focus on collecting Pokemon as a goal might make things convoluted. I don't appreciate cutaways either (like the English dubbed anime's 30+ Kentauros incident).

    I've never read translations of these drama CDs. I had no idea they exist, so I can't comment on them. I am interested in reading them though.
    Everything related to it is conveniently crammed onto this Mew/Mewtwo-related Tumblr.

    (Note that it's a prequel to the Japanese Mewtwo Strikes Back + the rest of the original Mewtwo saga from the anime, so it might also end up sparking your interest to watch those just to continue the story.)

    I was just using Mew's scene as an example of how Origins adapted the Pokedex quest well. I was also kinda fanboy-ing because I really like that ending. There is no need for Red to capture Mew either. Personally, I don't want him to because Mew represents the idea that there will always be more Pokemon to discover so well as long is it is undiscovered. There are plenty of event Pokemon that could fill that role, but Mew is the only one called by name outside of events, so the game is just teasing the player to hunt for something that they will never find.
    You're right. As much as this TV special didn't quite live up to my expectations, it was still a very fun special in regards to how well it did as a call-back to everyone's experiences playing the first entries of the franchise. In respects to that, the ending did complement everything well.

    It's not hard to come up with a distraction for someone not to declare a winner immediately. If both Pokemon are barely standing then showing the HP bars in the red doesn't spoil anything. The Pokemon with the higher speed wins. Show the attack and cut to the status screen. If the Pokemon keeps getting back up it is either taking large chunks of damage but not being KOed, or getting up after being KOed. Pokemon battles are not like boxing you only get 1 KO. Letting a Pokemon who has just woken up after a KO to battle is cruel and irresponsible. The trainer should be disqualified.

    They already did display their last bit of stamina when they were in the red. I'm just not seeing a significant difference. The HP bar may limit writing a little the few times it is used but it's not enough for me to care.
    The thing is, since the very concept of Hit Points was specifically created for the gaming medium, including it within a non-interactive medium is bound to create some problems.

    Think back to tabletop role-playing games. In-game, the concept of HP was simply a number attached to a character to clearly indicate how close (or far) from death they were. Within a storyline perspective, a numerical representation like 0 HP is not needed, the character never acknowledges that their HP even exists - they simply die or don't - and the necessity of HP is debated even to this day in regards to blows that would otherwise lop off their heads. Within the world of the Pocket Monsters video game RPG, it's clear that these fantastical monsters are resilient enough to withstand a blast of fire or two (to the player, their HP steadily decreasing depending on how strong they are), and it's clear that there's a point where they're rendered unable to battle (to the player, 0 HP, and like other JRPGs, it's not equivalent to death, but rather, unconsciousness). It's for this reason that HP ends up looking quite silly outside the realm of video games - it's always just a rough numerical representation of what the characters themselves are experiencing within the world of the story, which is sometimes exaggerated to an extent to fit gameplay purposes. From video games-to-anime (or any other visual medium), it's best to chuck it out to avoid problems altogether.

    You somewhat misinterpreted the example I was trying to describe, anyhow (it was sorta close though). It was more along the lines of both characters striking each other at the same time, then, while back-to-back at a distance, they stand their ground until one of them suddenly collapses. In general, with the degree of how similar the battles in the Origin were trying to be in comparison to the battle system in the video game (at least with the Gym and League battles we saw), I don't think HP bars would really complement over-the-top battles that I'm imagining in the vein of action anime/manga like, say, One Piece or the Pocket Monsters Special manga.

    I think there is a lot of potential for interesting game battle strategies to be adapted but overall I agree.
    On the topic of gameplay and storyline segregation, my example above about tabletop role-playing games rings true with the turn-based battle system found in the Pokemon games as well. People tend to joke about it as being "Pokemon standing around taking turns hitting each other", which I think is quite silly, especially since some fans seem to be quite serious when they talk about it in this way. I mean, why else would they complain about the seemingly-quick charge-up speed of Solar Beam in the main anime series? In classic TRPGs, turn order is determined by each characters' speed, while the turns themselves are near near-simultaneous in context of the story. The same thing applies to Pokemon - actions are actually instantaneous like in an actual battle, it's just that it's been form-fitted for gameplay to promote strategy. In actuality, the game's Solar Beam works exactly like the one in the anime.

    In hindsight, I don't mind game mechanics being adapted into animation as long as they're portrayed as what they were merely meant to represent in the games. In-game battle strategies can totally be adapted as long as the writers take a smart approach to it.

    I think it was great that the game finally has a significant bit of gameplay to back up the dialog about the player not abusing Pokemon. Before Pokemon Amie the closest thing the games had to showing that was the friendship stat, and the little known detail that if the friendship stat is falling you probably aren't playing the game well. As a general rule I don't complain about optional features
    I love Pokemon Amie, but I would have loved it more if Max Affection gave extra benefits excluding cheating KOs. I don't believe in the idea that one has to forgo an optional (and insanely fun) feature of the game just so they wouldn't feel cheap like that. There should be a middle ground, like an option to change difficulties.

    For something to be a DEM there would have to be no foreshadowing. Pokemon Amie creates foreshadowing so no it would not justify DEMs. It would still feel cheap in anime or manga in most cases though. The only exception would be in a Ash vs Paul like situation where the whole point is to show the benefits of bonding with Pokemon.
    True, it wouldn't technically be considered a DEM. In XY, Max Affection makes godly endurance an expectation. In anime/manga though, if we did have a representation of, say, literal "1 HP left" and we constantly have moments where that doesn't even matter, I'd say that would be really bad writing, at the very least. And fans would be defending it by saying "oh, well, you can do that in the games!"

    With the main anime series though, with the lack of a concept known as "HP", a hotblooded battle like Satoshi's Goukazaru vs. Shinji's Elekible is hard to call cheap since it doesn't really feel like the writers are taking any cheap way out of having the main character lose. We had bullshit like Thunder Armor, but overall, I feel that the freedom the main anime series gives itself is good enough in terms of adapting Pokemon battles. I just wish we had more stuff like Satoshi's Lizardon vs. Entei, which was impressive in terms of visuals and plot - out of the hundred of battles we had in the anime, only a few personally stick out to me.

    and Moltres being found inside a Cave. It could be Mt. Silver but considering this is based off of gen 1 it is probably meant to be Victory Road.
    It's most definitely Victory Road. The only other logical place would be Mt. Ember and it clearly wasn't Mt. Ember.

    I agree, but I'm okay with it because it was not meant to be the final battle. It is there to show how Red and Blue have grown and it does that.
    I suppose. As a "final antagonist", I would have preferred Mewtwo to have lasted a lot longer in battle and have more of a character to it, but again, I'll forgive the special for that as it was only four episodes with a bunch of things crammed in. I'm just happy that an accurate game depiction of Mr. Fuji got to shine as a character for once as well as the Pokemon Tower subplot, so the Origin does hold some value for me despite its shortcomings.

    Let me be clear about this. I like how Pokemon Origins adapted the Pokedex quest as Red's main goal and Origins Red may be my favorite version of the character because of that, but I don't want it to be Ethan's goal in (the hopeful) Pokemon Origins Gold and Silver. Part of what I like about Pokemon Special is that it uses different quests for each saga, and part of what I don't like about the Pokemon anime is that it repeats the same quest. The games themselves use the Gym quest as a structural tool for a coming of age story with a unique story or stories interweaved with that.

    I could see Ethan's goal being to become a strong trainer because the final battle would Presumably be against Red, or it could be about Ethan trying to find a goal for himself eventually settling on seeking strong trainers to battle.
    That's true, each Pocket Monsters protagonist should ideally be their own distinct character with their own individual goals. From what we've seen of Kenta, the main anime's counterpart of Hibiki, he wasn't too different from Satoshi in terms of goal and personality. Hopefully, if they ever decide to make a Gold/Silver version of Origin, Origin Hibiki will be able to distinguish himself from Origin Red.
    Last edited by FANG-TAN; 25th February 2014 at 04:11 PM.

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