"Flint Sparks the Fire" Review Thread

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Originally Posted by Roronoa Zorua

*rae* Y'realize that whole battle was less Flint showing us he's awesome (which he is) and more about reminding Volkner that there is more to battling than pounding confident and not so confident weak-hearted challengers into the dust, right? That it's more of what's in your heart than on your team.

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That's exactly (!) what I wrote, but they could have done it differently. Having Pikachu take thousands of hits although it had been shown before that only one of them is sufficient to knock out Ash's Pokemon is just cheap, cheap, cheap....
If they really wanted to draw a parallel between Ash and Volkner they could have had Infernape knock Pikachu out with two powerful attacks and then have Ash take care of his buddy with caring affection. That would have caused Volkner to rethink his attitude as well
It's the immense number of attacks I'm complaining about, because this was totally unnecessary to convey the episode's message and nearly destroyed Flint's reputation!

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Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

That's exactly (!) what I wrote, but they could have done it differently. Having Pikachu take thousands of hits although it had been shown before that only one of them is sufficient to knock out Ash's Pokemon is just cheap, cheap, cheap....
If they really wanted to draw a parallel between Ash and Volkner they could have had Infernape knock Pikachu out with two powerful attacks and then have Ash take care of his buddy with caring affection. That would have caused Volkner to rethink his attitude as well
It's the immense number of attacks I'm complaining about, because this was totally unnecessary to convey the episode's message and nearly destroyed Flint's reputation!

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Flint and Volkner are equally connected through their pokémon, and you're missing that. Infernape vs Ash's Pikachu is just as much a parallel between Flint vs Volkner when they were children, battling against each other.

Buizel and Ash's Infernape went down like nothing, as they should have (showing off that type advantage and the same species aren't going to win it for him), and that demonstrates Flint's superiority.

However, if Volkner's emotions turned by Ash's care for Pikachu after a loss from one or two hits, then it would have been a cheaper ploy than what you're complaining about.

Volkner needed to see his younger self in Ash (a time when battling was a passion), and that meant continuing the battle, since getting Volkner in the mood to battle Ash is pretty much what the fight is all about. See himself, see the hearts that some trainers still carry.

What symbolism are you missing here?

LOL at Queen Cynthia, I mean seriously it is not like Flint was ever going to lose the match.

And Queen Cynthia, I'm getting sick of you putting people on pedestals.

"OH no Cynthia didn't OHKO an Arceus, DAMN YOU WRITERS"

Seriously Pikachu was never going to win, Infernape wasn't even taking any sort of damage at all. And just because Pikachu survived a few hits and it's cheap.

HOW CAN SOMETHING BE CHEAP IF IT IS NOT BENEFICIAL AT ALL? If perhaps Infernape lost, then maybe, but there was just no way that was ever going to happen. Not even if Ash's own Infernape and Buizel lasted just as long Pikachu did.

And also I agree fully with Roronoa Zorua from above this post.

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Originally Posted by dman_dustin

LOL at Queen Cynthia, I mean seriously it is not like Flint was ever going to lose the match.

And Queen Cynthia, I'm getting sick of you putting people on pedestals.

"OH no Cynthia didn't OHKO an Arceus, DAMN YOU WRITERS"

Seriously Pikachu was never going to win, Infernape wasn't even taking any sort of damage at all. And just because Pikachu survived a few hits and it's cheap.

HOW CAN SOMETHING BE CHEAP IF IT IS NOT BENEFICIAL AT ALL? If perhaps Infernape lost, then maybe, but there was just no way that was ever going to happen. Not even if Ash's own Infernape and Buizel lasted just as long Pikachu did.

And also I agree fully with Roronoa Zorua from above this post.

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But you see, it is beneficial. It shows us false information, Pikachu being more powerful that it actually is. This is one reason I gave up on the Pokemon anime, varying power levels. In this episode Pikachu was able to keep up with an E4 poke, who previously OHKO two of his others (one being type disadvantage). Yet earlier this season it got knocked out from one hit of a raging Metagross.

If you are going to vary power levels, explain a bit. In the spoiler below I will compare.

In Yugioh, the deck is the power level. So as the deck changes, so does the power (explanation). In DBZ the planet and opponent themselves influence the power level (explanation) Where is the explanation for Pikachu to go from sorry ass chipmunk to god beaver?

It's simple Queen Cynthia- In anime when someone becomes determined to beat someone way stronger than them they'll constantly get up, not giving up the fight, despite being weaker than their opponent. As Ash and Pikachu have a very close bond Pikachu could sense Ash's determination not to give up so Pikachu felt just the same. Most of the time the outcome is that they lose to this person they're fighting as their opponent is way stronger than them, and in some anime they almost risk their own lives trying to beat them. Yeah, this is often a common thing in anime.

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Originally Posted by cohenmarioman

But you see, it is beneficial.

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It's only beneficial if someone wins.

Thunder Armor was "DEM" because Swellow and Pikachu won.

Skitty vs Dusclops was "DEM" because Skitty won

Squirtle vs Ariados was cheap because Squirtle won

Pikachu vs Regice was cheap because Pikachu won

Ash using his Kanto Pokemon against Brandon was cheap because they won.

No one says something is cheap or DEM when the DEM Pokemon loses despite some impossible event that occurred. Why should this battle be counted as cheap or DEM? I mean it isn't like the writers have been consistent with its strength, I mean remember how many hits Pikachu took during the full battle (including Burn?).

If the writers want something to lose they'll make it lose really quickly if said Pokemon has no further benefit. It has nothing to do with strength or weakness or the portrayal, otherwise Ash's Pokemon got really screwed over the "years."

But see here's where the double standard thing applies in this case. The only people who are even going to "complain" that Pikachu is overpowered in this episode, is because Pikachu isn't their favorite Pokemon on Ash's Team. Oh no but if certain fans have some Pokemon on some ridiculous pedestals three things can occur: 1. Pokemon gets knocked out easily; those fans complain. 2. Pokemon takes a lot of hits and loses; Fans complain (except maybe in the case of an E4 member), and finally 3. Pokemon takes out two-three of opposing trainers' Pokemon and suddenly it's the strongest Pokemon Ash has ever had.

I mean the only reason to complain, is it's because its Pikachu. No other reason other than "Darn rotten rodent managed to last longer than other two." Besides even ignoring the biasness and ridiculousness, you have to think of all the incredible real life stories that occurred (and no don't agrue, these actually occurred). A woman's child is stuck under a vehicle and due to some (biochemical; I think that's the word) reason said woman is capable of lifting the vehicle up just enough to get her child out. How does this apply to Pikachu? Pikachu was Ash's last chance to do anything. Pikachu knows this, it could have forced itself to keep battling until the very last moment where it just could not. Sometimes things happen unexpectedly and you fall unconscious easily. Other times you can force yourself and you can last longer. Case in point: Sometimes when I overexert myself when it comes to lifting I end up almost or actually vomiting, and this isn't something that took minutes, this just basically for lifting up a couch for like 30 seconds (at most). Other times I can last hours when I'm playing a sport or having fun for example.

Human biology is very random, it's not always constant. This can be applied to Pikachu because the writers don't keep strength constant. I'm almost positive that Ash's Pokemon (or any other Pokemon) have their ups and downs just like real humans do.

While I'm calming down, before I get worse (if I haven't already gone too far). I'm just going to stop. This will be my last post on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Roronoa Zorua

However, if Volkner's emotions turned by Ash's care for Pikachu after a loss from one or two hits, then it would have been a cheaper ploy than what you're complaining about.

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One question: Why? ;)
I see no reason to assume that such a long battle would have been necessary to turn Volkner's life around in the first place. One word or one action by Ash (for example caring affection for Pikachu) could easily have been enough to make Volkner remember his past.

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Originally Posted by dman_dustin

And just because Pikachu survived a few hits and it's cheap.

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A FEW HITS ?!
That's the actual problem we're talking about! It wasn't just "a few hits" coming from a weak random trainer's Pokemon but , I say it again,
2x Close Combat (one of the most powerful Fighting-type attacks)
3x Flare Blitz (one of the most powerful Fire-type attacks)
+ Thunderpunch and several Mach Punches
coming from the strongest Pokemon of an ELITE FOUR MEMBER!

Now you just have to be fair and admit that no intermediate trainer's Pokemon (=Ash's Pokemon) has such a strong determination to endure that cascade of deadly attacks I've just mentioned.

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Originally Posted by dman_dustin

No one says something is cheap or DEM when the DEM Pokemon loses despite some impossible event that occurred. Why should this battle be counted as cheap or DEM?

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To be honest I don't get the logic behind that! So what you're basically saying is that every trick is allowed as long as a Pokemon doesn't take advantage of it? Come on, how primitive a series would that be?
I don't think that you can be serious about that.

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Originally Posted by Don

In anime when someone because determined to beat someone way stronger than them they'll constantly get up, not giving up the fight, despite being weaker than their opponent. As Ash and Pikachu have a very close bond Pikachu could sense Ash's determination not to give up so Pikachu felt just the same.

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That's right in principle. But there is also the danger of taking this kind of argument for ANY illogical scene or battle. Since I started paying attention to the logic of the battles more in detail, I've heard this explanation EVERY TIME I complained about a flawed battle.See, it's getting old and I can't help thinking that it's a lame excuse for something that's simply written badly.
Let's bet: if in Pokemon BW Ash loses with his Pikachu against a random CoD again, we'll hear that argument again for sure ;)

It CAN be applied to some cases every once in a while, but if it serves as an uncreative excuse for every battle which can't be explained otherwise, it'll get boring and unconvincing.

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Originally Posted by dman_dustin

And Queen Cynthia, I'm getting sick of you putting people on pedestals.

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I'm not putting anybody on pedestals who doesn't deserve it ;)
We're talking about an Elite Four member and I guess I have the right to expect that the writers have Flint dominate the entire action. By having Pikachu take countless hits( although one or two of them would normally have led to a KO) the writers destroy Flint's reputation! But he doesn't deserve that, because he's a great character and that's making me so angry!

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It shows us false information, Pikachu being more powerful that it actually is. This is one reason I gave up on the Pokemon anime, varying power levels. In this episode Pikachu was able to keep up with an E4 poke, who previously OHKO two of his others (one being type disadvantage). Yet earlier this season it got knocked out from one hit of a raging Metagross.

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Couldn't have said it better myself! (Well, I said more or less the same in my first post ^^)
That example with Metagross further underlines the ridiculousness of that sudden power-up.

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"OH no Cynthia didn't OHKO an Arceus, DAMN YOU WRITERS"

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Hey, I actually like that! But a Two-Hit-KO would be fine with me as well ;)

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Originally Posted by dman_dustin

It's only beneficial if someone wins.

Thunder Armor was "DEM" because Swellow and Pikachu won.

Skitty vs Dusclops was "DEM" because Skitty won

Squirtle vs Ariados was cheap because Squirtle won

Pikachu vs Regice was cheap because Pikachu won

Ash using his Kanto Pokemon against Brandon was cheap because they won.

No one says something is cheap or DEM when the DEM Pokemon loses despite some impossible event that occurred. Why should this battle be counted as cheap or DEM? I mean it isn't like the writers have been consistent with its strength, I mean remember how many hits Pikachu took during the full battle (including Burn?).

If the writers want something to lose they'll make it lose really quickly if said Pokemon has no further benefit. It has nothing to do with strength or weakness or the portrayal, otherwise Ash's Pokemon got really screwed over the "years."

But see here's where the double standard thing applies in this case. The only people who are even going to "complain" that Pikachu is overpowered in this episode, is because Pikachu isn't their favorite Pokemon on Ash's Team. Oh no but if certain fans have some Pokemon on some ridiculous pedestals three things can occur: 1. Pokemon gets knocked out easily; those fans complain. 2. Pokemon takes a lot of hits and loses; Fans complain (except maybe in the case of an E4 member), and finally 3. Pokemon takes out two-three of opposing trainers' Pokemon and suddenly it's the strongest Pokemon Ash has ever had.

I mean the only reason to complain, is it's because its Pikachu. No other reason other than "Darn rotten rodent managed to last longer than other two." Besides even ignoring the biasness and ridiculousness, you have to think of all the incredible real life stories that occurred (and no don't agrue, these actually occurred). A woman's child is stuck under a vehicle and due to some (biochemical; I think that's the word) reason said woman is capable of lifting the vehicle up just enough to get her child out. How does this apply to Pikachu? Pikachu was Ash's last chance to do anything. Pikachu knows this, it could have forced itself to keep battling until the very last moment where it just could not. Sometimes things happen unexpectedly and you fall unconscious easily. Other times you can force yourself and you can last longer. Case in point: Sometimes when I overexert myself when it comes to lifting I end up almost or actually vomiting, and this isn't something that took minutes, this just basically for lifting up a couch for like 30 seconds (at most). Other times I can last hours when I'm playing a sport or having fun for example.

Human biology is very random, it's not always constant. This can be applied to Pikachu because the writers don't keep strength constant. I'm almost positive that Ash's Pokemon (or any other Pokemon) have their ups and downs just like real humans do.

While I'm calming down, before I get worse (if I haven't already gone too far). I'm just going to stop. This will be my last post on the subject.

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*Applause*

Man, if you could see me now. I would be giving you a standing ovation for that entire post! Usually, I would put up my thoughts about the episode and it would be a lot of words. I’m going to put up my opinions probably tomorrow.

I did not see the episode today, but I’ll probably catch it on YouTube later tonight. I’ve watched it countless times in Japanese so I can’t wait to watch the U.S. version.

Once again I applaud you for that spoiler post.

Satoshi and Pikachu are just Determinators.

Now you've just lost five hours of your life.

One thing I've always wondered about this ep was why people slam Buizel for losing in this ep, but not Ash's Infernape. Neither of them managed to even graze Flint's powerhouse, so what gives?


Eh whatever.


This ep really does show off DP superior story arc for the gym leaders. Volkner does come off depressed and solemn in this ep.

I guess you guys do not care about implications. Having Pikachu withstand over a minute of battle with an E4 Pokemon implies it is stronger that it actually is. It gives a false impression. It does matter. It doesn't matter if Pikachu won or not, it only matters it lasted so long. This is bad writing at its worst. Read my spoiler comparison and then prove me wrong.

The close combat survival was most jarring. Infernape's most powerful move and Pikachu pulls of a thunderbolt while falling down after it. And he stands with noticeable scratches, but continues fighting. Power Creep.

It seems like the dub is starting to get better. And this episode was great. Great voices, art, direction and script. There were some errors (Flints Infernape's tail missing) but everything else was great. For some reason, the bartender/poacher sounded a little like Kevin Conroy. Overall, great episode.

Is there any official way to find out who voices the characters other than looking at the credits and taking a wild guess?

I think that Flint sounded a lot like Reggie. Both him and Volkner were really awesome in this episode ^O^

And screw power levels, I'm in it for the Ignitionshipping D:<

The backstory between them was so cute. Basic shounen rivals, but those are the best kind :P

I can maybe sense that Volker has this inferiority complex when it comes to Flint, yet looks down on all the weak trainers he fights. Weird.

LOL, I just imagine what it must of been like for Barry and Paul to visit this gym. Paul probably did the same thing Ash did, seeing how PO'd he seemed, but being the ninja he is, probably fended off those robo-hands XD or not

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Originally Posted by cohenmarioman

I guess you guys do not care about implications. Having Pikachu withstand over a minute of battle with an E4 Pokemon implies it is stronger that it actually is. It gives a false impression. It does matter. It doesn't matter if Pikachu won or not, it only matters it lasted so long. This is bad writing at its worst. Read my spoiler comparison and then prove me wrong.

The close combat survival was most jarring. Infernape's most powerful move and Pikachu pulls of a thunderbolt while falling down after it. And he stands with noticeable scratches, but continues fighting. Power Creep.

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Don't worry , I don't get it either why some people just won't realize that