Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree 
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic What we saw in the buildup, in how the Japanese publications talked about this episode in the build-up, is consistent with the kind of treatment other recurring characters have had before their goodbye's.
I don't recall anything like this happening with the previous main characters. In those cases, the publications promoted the beginning of a new series, rather than the departure of the then current characters. Take May and Max for instance: They were nowhere to be seen in the DP adverts, but then neither were Ash and Brock until very close to Diamond and Pearl's release. As for the other villains, I doubt that the official sources even made an issue of their leaving the series.
The other villains were hardly recurring characters. But exactly this same kind of language was employed in publications covering the Pokémon anime. You may not have seen it, but then again, it's not like every single issue of CoroCoro over the years has been scanned and translated to English either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree Besides, the statement made by Pokémon Fan and that poster is akin to saying "This is Team Rocket's final battle in Unova. Are they really leaving after 15 years?" That is hardly a definitive statement, and it is also offset by tweets saying that the trio would like to be main characters again.
That the statement is not "definitive" is a bit of a red herring here. Firstly, because they've used exactly that same kind of language in the build-up to other major recurring characters leaving. Secondly, because it's in Japanese, and the connotations and context of what's being said are as important, if not moreso, than what's being stated outright.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic The other villains were hardly recurring characters. But exactly this same kind of language was employed in publications covering the Pokémon anime. You may not have seen it, but then again, it's not like every single issue of CoroCoro over the years has been scanned and translated to English either.
Quote:
That the statement is not "definitive" is a bit of a red herring here. Firstly, because they've used exactly that same kind of language in the build-up to other major recurring characters leaving. Secondly, because it's in Japanese, and the connotations and context of what's being said are as important, if not moreso, than what's being stated outright.
It would be helpful if you could provide examples of this kind of language being used before.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree It would be helpful if you could provide examples of this kind of language being used before.
Given that my old Japanese language magazines are all in boxes at the back of the garage, you're going to have to take this one on my word, sorry. But again, this stuff is pretty standard in the Japanese media. Not just with Pokémon, for that matter. Obviously they're going to pay more attention to some characters than others, but these kind of phrases are what you'd expect to see in the build up to any main character leaving.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic Given that my old Japanese language magazines are all in boxes at the back of the garage, you're going to have to take this one on my word, sorry.
I'm afraid I can't do that. We're dealing with nuances that I wouldn't expect anyone to remember after so many years.
Quote:
But again, this stuff is pretty standard in the Japanese media. Not just with Pokémon, for that matter. Obviously they're going to pay more attention to some characters than others, but these kind of phrases are what you'd expect to see in the build up to any main character leaving.
We've also had several misleading episodes titles that falsely implied that Team Rocket would leave: "Rocket-dan! Goodbye to the Troublemakers!!", "Rocket-dan's Disbandment!? Respective Roads!", "Rocket-dan Breakup!?", "Goodbye Rocket-dan! Love of Nyarth!?"
The episode should speak for itself. Apart from the fact that Team Rocket retreated to Kanto, the mission ended in the same way as the previous missions did, which is to say that nothing significant changed for Team Rocket (they may have stopped Giovanni, but he wasn't even himself). The only character that was given closure was Meloetta. This time the trio have left Unova, but it may only be a matter of three months until Ash follows suit.
Hopefully, tomorrow's radio show will shed some light on this. Failing that, it will also be interesting how the opening will be updated. If Meloetta is removed but Team Rocket aren't, that will speak volumes.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree We've also had several misleading episodes titles that falsely implied that Team Rocket would leave: "Rocket-dan! Goodbye to the Troublemakers!!", "Rocket-dan's Disbandment!? Respective Roads!", "Rocket-dan Breakup!?", "Goodbye Rocket-dan! Love of Nyarth!?"
It's not about the episode titles themselves, but rather how the episode has been built up and discussed in publications leading up to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree The episode should speak for itself. Apart from the fact that Team Rocket retreated to Kanto, the mission ended in the same way as the previous missions did, which is to say that nothing significant changed for Team Rocket (they may have stopped Giovanni, but he wasn't even himself). This time they've left Unova, but it may only be a matter of three months until Ash follows suit.
The episode did speak for itself. It did a massive tribute in the ending theme, with a montage of many memorable moments of the TRio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree Hopefully, tomorrow's radio show will shed some light on this.
Perhaps. But them having the radio show and continuing with that is really irrelevant to them being on the main show as anything but the occasional guest. Think of that radio show in the same manner as you might the old HoSo's, and consider what the HoSo's did and didn't do for Kasumi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree Failing that, it will also be interesting how the opening will be updated. If Meloetta is removed but Team Rocket aren't, that will speak volumes.
Maybe, maybe not. It's not as if we don't commonly have characters in the Pokémon opening and ending themes who've ceased to be main characters, after all. There's several right there in the current opening for that matter.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic It's not about the episode titles themselves, but rather how the episode has been built up and discussed in publications leading up to it.
The episodes titles are accessible to every viewer. The publications, on the other hand, are not. What makes them more credible?
Quote:
It did a massive tribute in the ending theme, with a montage of many memorable moments of the TRio.
Which was followed by the TRio saying that they will be back. Mind you, Pikachu was also given a special montage in the Kanto episode in which it was purported to leave Ash. The only difference now is that we probably aren't going to see the TRio very soon, but that's to be expected since their appearances have been sporadic for some time now.
Quote:
Think of that radio show in the same manner as you might the old HoSo's, and consider what the HoSo's did and didn't do for Kasumi.
They didn't obviate the need for Misty to return to the main show for at least a few episodes.
Quote:
It's not as if we don't commonly have characters in the Pokémon opening and ending themes who've ceased to be main characters, after all. There's several right there in the current opening for that matter.
The animators replaced Dawn and Piplup with Kotetsu and Riolu as soon as they left. I would expect Team Rocket to receive the same treatment if they've really been written off.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree We've also had several misleading episodes titles that falsely implied that Team Rocket would leave: "Rocket-dan! Goodbye to the Troublemakers!!", "Rocket-dan's Disbandment!? Respective Roads!", "Rocket-dan Breakup!?", "Goodbye Rocket-dan! Love of Nyarth!?"
It's not about the episode titles themselves, but rather how the episode has been built up and discussed in publications leading up to it.
And the build-up you're talking about were some vague statements.
Quote:
The episode did speak for itself. It did a massive tribute in the ending theme, with a montage of many memorable moments of the TRio.
No, it wasn't a tribute to the TRio, but more like their old Pokemon, because of the call-in poll question which was "Which Pokemon do you want to come back?".
Quote:
Perhaps. But them having the radio show and continuing with that is really irrelevant to them being on the main show as anything but the occasional guest. Think of that radio show in the same manner as you might the old HoSo's, and consider what the HoSo's did and didn't do for Kasumi.
Rockets and Kasumi are different.
Quote:
Maybe, maybe not. It's not as if we don't commonly have characters in the Pokémon opening and ending themes who've ceased to be main characters, after all. There's several right there in the current opening for that matter.
It's different this series, as they removed Hikari.
EDIT: Oh, ninja'd XD
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeshi because of the call-in poll question which was "Which Pokemon do you want to come back?".
As in come back to the show? Why has no one mentioned this before?
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree The episodes titles are accessible to every viewer. The publications, on the other hand, are not. What makes them more credible?
Because they're the outlet for the hype to be built about the episodes. The writers of these sorts of things typically would have connections in the industry, and would be familiar with the tropes employed by the show.
It should be noted also that episode summaries would typically be provided to the publications before they write up any episode guides, etc. Remember, many of these magazines publish blurbs about episodes up to a month in advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeshi And the build-up you're talking about were some vague statements.
As I've already pointed out, the "vagueness" of the statements is to be expected if anything. We're talking the Japanese language, not English. We're also talking about them hinting at future events to build hype, whereas explicit statements would just be outright spoilers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeshi The episode did speak for itself. It did a massive tribute in the ending theme, with a montage of many memorable moments of the TRio.
No, it wasn't a tribute to the TRio, but more like their old Pokemon, because of the call-in poll question which was "Which Pokemon do you want to come back?".
The call-in poll's have had no relevance to anything up to this point in time. I see no reason to start giving them credence now. The song they played was a very old Team Rocket song, one which has no relevance or meaning to their Pokémon. It was a tribute to the TRio. Given that this is Pokémon, that will by extension of course involve paying tribute to their Pokémon, because all their most memorable moments are together with their Pokémon. In the end though, it's still primarily about the TRio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree Quote:
It did a massive tribute in the ending theme, with a montage of many memorable moments of the TRio.
Which was followed by the TRio saying that they will be back. Mind you, Pikachu was also given a special montage in the Kanto episode in which it was purported to leave Ash. The only difference now is that we probably aren't going to see the TRio very soon, but that's to be expected since their appearances have been sporadic for some time now.
Quote:
Think of that radio show in the same manner as you might the old HoSo's, and consider what the HoSo's did and didn't do for Kasumi.
They didn't obviate the need for Misty to return to the main show for at least a few episodes.
Let me clarify something here. I'm specifically saying that I feel they will not come back as main/recurring characters. That the TRio might come back for a few episodes at some point is irrelevant to this discussion, as far as I'm concerned.
On the issue of Pikachu, when it was given that montage it was clear at that point that Pikachu would be remaining in the show, and would continue to be in every episode. That isn't there for the TRio, and given that, the connotation of the montage tribute ending is that they're leaving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeshi Rockets and Kasumi are different.
Main characters who get a send-off, who get to host their own spin-off media, who may get to make cameos in the future. Honestly not seeing a lot of difference as far as this discussion is concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree The animators replaced Dawn and Piplup with Kotetsu and Riolu as soon as they left. I would expect Team Rocket to receive the same treatment if they've really been written off.
Take a look at the opening. The segments that Dawn appeared in were group segments with the rest of the main/recurring characters. Team Rocket only appears in its own smaller section, on their own, with no other characters in frame. Them remaining in the opening doesn't tell us anything.
Probably worth me asking at this point though....are you actually suggesting that they're going to actually continue to be in the BW2 arc as main/recurring characters? That's seems to be the implication of you making this argument about the opening theme, but I don't think anyone here has seriously suggested that, even if they expected them to return next season.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic Because they're the outlet for the hype to be built about the episodes. The writers of these sorts of things typically would have connections in the industry, and would be familiar with the tropes employed by the show.
It should be noted also that episode summaries would typically be provided to the publications before they write up any episode guides, etc. Remember, many of these magazines publish blurbs about episodes up to a month in advance.
None of this explains why the publications should be taken at face value when that is not the case for the episode titles.
Quote:
We're also talking about them hinting at future events to build hype, whereas explicit statements would just be outright spoilers.
Exactly. They built hype regardless of whether or not they were being misleading.
Quote:
The segments that Dawn appeared in were group segments with the rest of the main/recurring characters. Team Rocket only appears in its own smaller section, on their own, with no other characters in frame. Them remaining in the opening doesn't tell us anything.
I think you're grasping at straws. But we don't know if the opening will be updated, so it is a moot point right now. All I'm saying is that removing them from the opening would get the point across, so I don't see why the animators would decide against it if you were right.
Quote:
Probably worth me asking at this point though....are you actually suggesting that they're going to actually continue to be in the BW2 arc as main/recurring characters? That's seems to be the implication of you making this argument about the opening theme, but I don't think anyone here has seriously suggested that, even if they expected them to return next season.
They were gone from the show for four months in the gap between the first Kami trio two-parter and the subsequent fossil mission. Did they stop being recurring characters then? That depends on your definition, but I'm suggesting that something similar may happen again. If they do show up in the remainder of Best Wishes, it won't be the same thing as Misty, May and Dawn appearing in subsequent series.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Just hit midnight here in Australia, so briefly on the point of the publications...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic Because they're the outlet for the hype to be built about the episodes. The writers of these sorts of things typically would have connections in the industry, and would be familiar with the tropes employed by the show.
It should be noted also that episode summaries would typically be provided to the publications before they write up any episode guides, etc. Remember, many of these magazines publish blurbs about episodes up to a month in advance.
None of this explains why the publications should be taken at face value when that is not the case for the episode titles.
Quote:
We're also talking about them hinting at future events to build hype, whereas explicit statements would just be outright spoilers.
Exactly. They built hype regardless of whether or not they were being misleading.
I think you're underestimating the closeness of the relationship between the magazines and the production companies in Japan, and the way they actually conduct hype over there. The way it works over there is effectively that the magazines hype things how they're told to hype them. They may as well be unofficial mouthpieces for the production companies. If the magazines are giving fans the impression that main characters are possibly going to be leaving the show, it's because the production company actually intends to have them leave, and intends for the fans to discuss and hype this amongst themselves prior to it actually happening.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeshi because of the call-in poll question which was "Which Pokemon do you want to come back?".
As in come back to the show? Why has no one mentioned this before?
I thought it's been mentioned O.O
Anyway, they were asking people which pokemon they want to come back to Team Rocket. It would be a kind of pointless question, if they left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Archaic Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silktree The episodes titles are accessible to every viewer. The publications, on the other hand, are not. What makes them more credible?
Because they're the outlet for the hype to be built about the episodes. The writers of these sorts of things typically would have connections in the industry, and would be familiar with the tropes employed by the show.
It should be noted also that episode summaries would typically be provided to the publications before they write up any episode guides, etc. Remember, many of these magazines publish blurbs about episodes up to a month in advance.
Which gives them the same credibility as Pokemon Smash, which as we know, hasn't been really reliable.
Quote:
As I've already pointed out, the "vagueness" of the statements is to be expected if anything. We're talking the Japanese language, not English. We're also talking about them hinting at future events to build hype, whereas explicit statements would just be outright spoilers.
The vagueness doesn't mean that something will happen either.
It's more likely that it won't happen, as Pokemon staff simply doesn't seem to care about spoilers too much.
But instead of talking about the vagueness of the build-up that happened before the ep, why not talk about the facts after the ep?
Link
Someone stated before that this 3DS gift is a "farewell gift from Team Rocket". Not really. Because it really says that it's a "parting gift from Team Rocket who finished their mission in Isshu and came back to Kanto". They're just separated from the region, not the show. I guess they would stated blatantly that it's the end of Team Rocket in the anime if that was the case. After all, it was after the episode arleady.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaic
The call-in poll's have had no relevance to anything up to this point in time. I see no reason to start giving them credence now. The song they played was a very old Team Rocket song, one which has no relevance or meaning to their Pokémon. It was a tribute to the TRio. Given that this is Pokémon, that will by extension of course involve paying tribute to their Pokémon, because all their most memorable moments are together with their Pokémon. In the end though, it's still primarily about the TRio.
And what other song they would play? TR didn't have that many songs to begin with. They could choose between that and Maemuki Roketto Dan really which wouldn't be a good choice in this case XD
Btw, it's great that you brought up the song and went this far to think of its meaning, because the song is about them looking forward to the future and waiting for their good times on Pokemon when they become the main characters ;D
Quote:
Let me clarify something here. I'm specifically saying that I feel they will not come back as main/recurring characters. That the TRio might come back for a few episodes at some point is irrelevant to this discussion, as far as I'm concerned.
On the issue of Pikachu, when it was given that montage it was clear at that point that Pikachu would be remaining in the show, and would continue to be in every episode. That isn't there for the TRio, and given that, the connotation of the montage tribute ending is that they're leaving.
And again, just before "the montage tribute ending", they said on Live Caster that they will come back, so it was clear thet they'll come back too.
Quote:
Main characters who get a send-off, who get to host their own spin-off media, who may get to make cameos in the future. Honestly not seeing a lot of difference as far as this discussion is concerned.
I'm still saying that Rockets and Kasumi are different case, because they have a different meaning to the show. And Kasumi got a sendoff, because Shudo thought he failed at making her important character and giving her a decent reason to be on the show. Before the radio show, I thought it could end up as the same case for Team Rocket, but since the radio started, it seems more like the staff would rather have them "revert back" than write them out.
Quote:
Probably worth me asking at this point though....are you actually suggesting that they're going to actually continue to be in the BW2 arc as main/recurring characters? That's seems to be the implication of you making this argument about the opening theme, but I don't think anyone here has seriously suggested that, even if they expected them to return next season.
No, I don't think anyone here suggested that.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
So in other words we're back to the usual assumption. Team Rocket have been written out of the Unova region, so as long as Ash stays in Unova, they probably won't appear. If we see them, it'll be 1-2 minute scenes of them back in Rocket HQ's in Kanto.
I now strongly believe there will be an arc of sorts in Kanto, moreso than the usual Pallet Town meeting they usually do. This will allow TR to return, with their old Pokemon as well, and probably a much bigger TR arc involving most of the organization as its in Kanto.
If the writers really intend for this to be the final TR series, let them go out with a bang. Team Rocket ending in Kanto where it all began would be a fitting conclusion, much in the way we've see Misty and Brock written off the anime.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Fighting Misty So in other words we're back to the usual assumption. Team Rocket have been written out of the Unova region, so as long as Ash stays in Unova, they probably won't appear. If we see them, it'll be 1-2 minute scenes of them back in Rocket HQ's in Kanto.
Yeah, I agree with that. And btw, I'd love to see their daily routine in the HQ, because I've always wanted Pokemon to show that, yet never got a chance really. There was some of that in the Hoso, but that wasn't enough.
And I think that this discussion is pretty pointless now as we're just playing ping-pong with arguments here. I guess we should all agree to disagree at least unless we get a proof that's blatant to everyone.
Re: BW 097 "The Reijuu Formes Advance! Isshu's Greatest Crisis!!"
We'll hopefully have some answers in less than 24 hours. Everyone, try to enjoy your weekend in the meantime. XD
