Thread: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

Originally Posted by Geodude

Originally Posted by Joshawott

Also, I though the previous episodes really hammered in the aspect of training for the tournament...we never saw any of that did we? xD

What were the battles outside Cynthia's place for, then?

I only remember seeing Cilan vs Dawn, as a way of them introducing themselves to each other (well, their "jobs") and Ash vs Dawn, which was very brief.

Doesn't mean it was the entire battle. And I'm sure it was mentioned in dialogue we didn't understand that they were training. They've been staying in one place for once and not travelling, they've certainly had time.

Originally Posted by Human

Originally Posted by Wyvernphlare

And why exactly did Dragonite stop blocking? Yeah no effort for no explained reason totally badass.

Using its battle instincts :D! BADASS.

How the FUCK is doing nothing a battle instinct that makes no bloody sense what so ever?

Okay, calm down. It's really not worth that sort of reaction.

Saw this on Bulbapedia

Despite having a major type advantage and Dragonite disobeying Iris, Beartic was knocked out by one ThunderPunch, eliminating Georgia from the tournament.

I love the irony

The best part about this episode was Trip because he acted like a woman scorn. It actually got a chuckle out of me, especially when he outwardly scowled every time he saw Adeku and when he's all like "IT'S SHOOTI D:<" Calm down, Trip! I'm sorry your idol wants to spend more time with Cynthia than you XD

Originally Posted by Human

It's not really an opinion. It's a fact that the match was an exhibition match. So it really wasn't a serious one. Here's a description of what an exhibition match is:

An exhibition game (also known as an exhibition match, exhibition, demonstration, demo, exhibit or friendly) is a sporting event in which there is no competitive value of any significant kind to any competitor (such as tournament or season rankings, or prize money) regardless of the outcome of the competition.

Do you really, I mean really, think that the writers had this definition in mind when writing the episode? Pokemon is a show that defies physics whenever necessary, so why should the writers care about certain definitions and rules of the real world? We know that the writers usually don't care about details (unfortunately...), so why now of all times?
Also, we don't know if "exhibition match" was the right translation for the relevant Japanese word. Maybe the writers had a different concept in mind or maybe "exhibition match" means something different in Japanese. And let's not forget that "I wanna be the very best"- idea is there in almost every single episode, so from my point of view it's plain illogical why the outcome of that exhibition match shouldn't matter all of a sudden. No, that solution is absolutely not convincing.

But granted the writers actually had that definition of exhibition match in mind, I would still be angry.
They want an exhibition match? Fine, but then do it with a random gym leader or Elite Four member, but for God's sake, don't bring back Cynthia for such an insignificant, unworthy, little match.
Cynthia only deserves the best and greatest episodes, for example where there are important battles or where something big is at stake.
But having her return for such a pathetically written tournament with that wannabe-champion Alder is nothing less than an insult and unworthy of the greatest woman in that show.

Redeem her for what? Making a show? Showing off her talents?

For treating her that badly and in such an unworthy way.

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

For treating her that badly and in such an unworthy way.

I fail to see how she was badly treated. Caitlin is an Elite 4 member. Literally one step below Champion. It's not unfeasible that she would be close to Cynthia's level in terms of ability.

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

Originally Posted by Human

It's not really an opinion. It's a fact that the match was an exhibition match. So it really wasn't a serious one. Here's a description of what an exhibition match is:

An exhibition game (also known as an exhibition match, exhibition, demonstration, demo, exhibit or friendly) is a sporting event in which there is no competitive value of any significant kind to any competitor (such as tournament or season rankings, or prize money) regardless of the outcome of the competition.

Do you really, I mean really, think that the writers had this definition in mind when writing the episode? Pokemon is a show that defies physics whenever necessary, so why should the writers care about certain definitions and rules of the real world? We know that the writers usually don't care about details (unfortunately...), so why now of all times?

The writers would have just called it a match instead. Why would they bother calling it an "exhibition match"? The battle was for show.

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

Also, we don't know if "exhibition match" was the right translation for the relevant Japanese word. Maybe the writers had a different concept in mind or maybe "exhibition match" means something different in Japanese. And let's not forget that "I wanna be the very best"- idea is there in almost every single episode, so from my point of view it's plain illogical why the outcome of that exhibition match shouldn't matter all of a sudden. No, that solution is absolutely not convincing.

Every other site that posted it called it an "exhibition match". If they had a different concept, they would have put the word that corresponded with it. "I wanna be the very best" was lyrics from 4kids' first theme song for Pokemon. I don't know what you were trying to mean by saying that.

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

But granted the writers actually had that definition of exhibition match in mind, I would still be angry.
They want an exhibition match? Fine, but then do it with a random gym leader or Elite Four member, but for God's sake, don't bring back Cynthia for such an insignificant, unworthy, little match.

Not really. The Unova region is very far away from the Sinnoh region. There are obviously many people there who haven't seen Cynthia in front of their very own eyes. Cynthia, wanting to raise her popularity, accepted the offer. She went and wowed the audience with her Garchomp. If she just OHKO Gothitelle, the audience would be disappointed wanting to have more. Cynthia gave them what they wanted. A glorious 10 minute match. Can't say it was insignificant when it helped boost her popularity in the region.

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

Cynthia only deserves the best and greatest episodes, for example where there are important battles or where something big is at stake.
But having her return for such a pathetically written tournament with that wannabe-champion Alder is nothing less than an insult and unworthy of the greatest woman in that show.

If you want to point your finger, point it at the last episode of the DP saga, where Flint was giving Cynthia a hard time in their battle. Even so, I disapprove that an E4 member shouldn't do anything to a Champion in a battle. The E4 are nearly the same level as her. Regarding Alder, give him a chance in BW093. As a Cynthia fan myself, I disapprove that she should only appear when there's something at stake or for an important battle. Oh and, the battle against Caitlin counts as an important battle because it opened the tournament. A battle against an E4 member and a Champion screams of importance too.

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

For treating her that badly and in such an unworthy way.

Since you'll probably disapprove of the above, I'll have to tackle this at a different angle with information you seemingly don't know so I could then make a new argument that ties with your logic of how Cynthia should be handled.

After the exhibition match ended, Cynthia and Caitlin shaked hands and praised each others performance. Caitlin then thanked Cynthia for being a great mentor to her in the past. This links with her dialogue in the games:

"No matter how hard I try, I cannot defeat Cynthia. Before, I would have exploded with rage. Now, I have the tranquility to reflect on my performance to see how I can improve."

Caitlin also said that Cynthia helped her control those emotions that caused pain to her every time she lost a Pokemon battle against trainers and Cynthia herself. So yeah, if Caitlin didn't lift a finger against Cynthia, Cynthia herself would look like a bad mentor to Caitlin, which goes against how you want Cynthia to look good.

By the way, in the next episode she's going to help Iris tame her Dragonite like the amazingly awesome and helpful Champion she is. So Cynthia purpose in this tournament is not done yet.

Why is there such a hubbub over the draw?

Champions aren't untouchable(especially in the games). Lance got beaten by Blue. Ghetsis was stronger than not only Alder, but N as well.

Heck, even the E4 isn't untouchable in the games: Volkner is as strong as Flint, yet is not an E4 member. Koga is implied to be weaker than Giovanni, yet is an E4. Wallace was a champion level gym leader.

You know, watching it again. I really don't think it's that bad of an episode.

It's not a great one by quite a stretch, but it's not the catastrophe like some people seem to think.

If nothing else, we got to see two Champions interacting, Cynthia take on a tough opponent, and Serperior debut.

I'm of the opinion that Vanilluxe should've been used here instead of Beartic. Would give it it's first fight, and make it more believable when it was taken down in one blow...

Originally Posted by RWB

I'm of the opinion that Vanilluxe should've been used here instead of Beartic. Would give it it's first fight, and make it more believable when it was taken down in one blow...

Yeah, I agree with that. Making Dragonite take down Georgia's strongest Pokémon in one hit is a bit of a stretch, even though Dragonite has been established to be very powerful. Vanilluxe was at least a new member to her team, and she seemed to be in desperate need of strengthening it in the Ferroseed episode.

Originally Posted by Chiplet

Originally Posted by RWB

I'm of the opinion that Vanilluxe should've been used here instead of Beartic. Would give it it's first fight, and make it more believable when it was taken down in one blow...

Yeah, I agree with that. Making Dragonite take down Georgia's strongest Pokémon in one hit is a bit of a stretch, even though Dragonite has been established to be very powerful. Vanilluxe was at least a new member to her team, and she seemed to be in desperate need of strengthening it in the Ferroseed episode.

The saddest part is that this makes Excadrill look like a joke as well.

Beartic has endured 5+ attacks against it in every fight so far, and taken it down in less. Yet it nails Dragonite with 5 attacks(of which 3 are not only supereffective, but powerful among their type) and goes down in one.

Yeah, Dragonite is playing in a completely different league than Excadrill, and if we assume Mamoswine will challenge it, and that

Krookodile will beat it

, suddenly both those mons have to be considered to be leagues above Excadrill.

Originally Posted by Human

Not really. The Unova region is very far away from the Sinnoh region. There are obviously many people there who haven't seen Cynthia in front of their very own eyes. Cynthia, wanting to raise her popularity, accepted the offer. She went and wowed the audience with her Garchomp. If she just OHKO Gothitelle, the audience would be disappointed wanting to have more. Cynthia gave them what they wanted. A glorious 10 minute match. Can't say it was insignificant when it helped boost her popularity in the region.

I don't know if this was explicitly mentioned in one of the recent Japanese episodes. If it was, you may be right although I'm convinced that the audience would have been much more impressed if Cynthia had just OHKOed Gothitelle. True, the match itself might not have been as spectacular in that case but the result would have been even more impressive instead.
But if nothing of that kind was said in the episodes, we can only speculate as to why Cynthia came to Unova in the first place. Also, I could still stick to my view that the exhibition match was not a good enough reason for the writers to bring back Cynthia who should only appear in the really important episodes because otherwise, some people could consider her as just an ordinary, everyday character. (What a terrible thing to say!)

If you want to point your finger, point it at the last episode of the DP saga, where Flint was giving Cynthia a hard time in their battle. Even so, I disapprove that an E4 member shouldn't do anything to a Champion in a battle.

That's not quite right. Apart from landing two hits with Close Combat that didn't do a thing, Infernape was just trying to defend himself throughout the battle, while Garchomp kept attacking him successfully. Cynthia was in total control of the whole battle, it's just that Infernape was tougher than an ordinary Pokemon and needed a few more hits before eventually going down. So, if anything, it was Flint who had a hard time in said match.

After the exhibition match ended, Cynthia and Caitlin shaked hands and praised each others performance. Caitlin then thanked Cynthia for being a great mentor to her in the past. This links with her dialogue in the games:

"No matter how hard I try, I cannot defeat Cynthia. Before, I would have exploded with rage. Now, I have the tranquility to reflect on my performance to see how I can improve."

Caitlin also said that Cynthia helped her control those emotions that caused pain to her every time she lost a Pokemon battle against trainers and Cynthia herself. So yeah, if Caitlin didn't lift a finger against Cynthia, Cynthia herself would look like a bad mentor to Caitlin, which goes against how you want Cynthia to look good.

OK, now you do have a point and, believe it or not, I want to thank you for this information because it helped me accept the result of the battle much more. You see, I haven't seen the subtitled episode yet because my PC had broken down, so, of course, I didn't know what they were saying in that scene. But what you said (I hope you have reliable sources!) casts a different light on the battle, at least to some extent. In that case, Cynthia is not only the greatest Champion but also a great mentor and trainer for none other than Elite Four members, a fact that indeed makes her even more wonderful. That's really a fantastic thing to hear!

Well, I've got to say that your last comment was really helpful but there's still one thing I still can't get my head around: The writers want an exhibition match? Fine. But why not let Cynthia win it after a spectacular ten minute show? Why? They could have killed two birds with one stone: They could have vowed the audience and Cynthia would have gotten the battle she deserves as the best of all Champions.

By the way, in the next episode she's going to help Iris tame her Dragonite like the amazingly awesome and helpful Champion she is. So Cynthia purpose in this tournament is not done yet.

Let's hope it'll be a good episode and Cynthia will be redeemed.