REVIEW: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!" - Page 6
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Thread: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

  1. #76
    Protecting Gotham City Geodude's Avatar Super Moderator
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Why is it that nobody seemed to care that Pikachu tied with Winona's Pelipper and lost to Skyla's Swanna, and yet there's this big stink over Dragonite surviving an Ice attack? Clear double standard to me, and further evidence of the strange dislike for Iris among people here.

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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    Why is it that nobody seemed to care that Pikachu tied with Winona's Pelipper and lost to Skyla's Swanna, and yet there's this big stink over Dragonite surviving an Ice attack? Clear double standard to me, and further evidence of the strange dislike for Iris among people here.
    Both of which are Gym Leaders. Iris is not one, she hasn't trained the Dragonite to resist such attacks, it was disobedient, she beat Georgia with it unfairly and proceeded into the second round with no consequence on her side whatsoever.

    Winona's Pelliper and Skyla's Swanna made Ash have less of a chance of beating them. He suffered a consequence in which he had to up his game to get the gym badge he needed. Did Iris suffer any? No, she clearly didn't. That's my justification on the "strange dislike" that shouldn't even be called strange in the first place since it's justified.

  3. #78
    Protecting Gotham City Geodude's Avatar Super Moderator
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Did she need to "suffer"? I don't understand why people are so hung up on that. I don't get the Iris hate in general.

    It wasn't unfair. Her actions were within the rules and within her rights. Dragonite chose to submit to being captured and going with her, why wouldn't she use it?

    Also, Dragonite has pretty consistently been portrayed as very powerful in the anime. Think of Lance's, think of the Dragonite that Ash's Charizard battled in that Johto arc, think of the Orange Islands one that took down several of Ash's Pokemon before Pikachu finally finished it off. A Dragonite could arguably be on at least the same power level as the Gym Leaders' Swanna and Pelipper, so I still think it's a double standard.
    Last edited by Geodude; 5th August 2012 at 08:41 PM.

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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    Did she need to "suffer"? I don't understand why people are so hung up on that. I don't get the Iris hate in general.
    Yes, she needs to "suffer" because that is a way to teach her to become a stronger trainer. If she doesn't face any hardships, then she'd be boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    It wasn't unfair. Her actions were within the rules and within her rights.
    Lawfully right, morally wrong. She just conveniently got the Dragonite exactly before the tournament and used it to win, when the other trainers there probably trained their Pokemon for a long time. And no, this isn't like when Ash got Palpitoad and used in the Club Battles tournament to get 2 wins in like Dragonite here because Palpitoad wasn't displayed to be a killer beast. It was portrayed to be your normal, average strength Pokemon. Dragonite is being portrayed as overpowered. Which brings us to our next point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    Also, Dragonite has pretty consistently been portrayed as very powerful in the anime. Think of Lance's, think of the Dragonite that Ash's Charizard battled in that Johto arc, think of the Orange Islands one that took down several of Ash's Pokemon before Pikachu finally finished it off.
    Which was trained by an already established to be powerful trainer. Only now, this Dragonite is somehow stronger.

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    Protecting Gotham City Geodude's Avatar Super Moderator
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    The Dragonite at the Lake of Rage was wild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Human View Post
    Lawfully right, morally wrong. She just conveniently got the Dragonite exactly before the tournament and used it to win, when the other trainers there probably trained their Pokemon for a long time.
    Really nothing new for the anime. Ash has done similar things many times. Not necessarily with a new capture, but with an existing member of his team who is inexperienced in the task at hand.

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    Not even my final form GreatLiver's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    It's evolved to a Dragonite, it's going to be strong even if it grew up in the wild. They've only ever been shown as strong pokemon, they're not going to change that just because Iris is a relatively young trainer. Is it sorta deus ex that Iris got one to begin with? Yeah. But that's the nature of a machina and people just need to accept it at this point and stop whining about it and Iris.

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    Protecting Gotham City Geodude's Avatar Super Moderator
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Not a lot different than Dawn getting a Togekiss, really. There wasn't much complaining about that. And heck, it IS possible to catch wild Dragonite in the games, unlike Togekiss. Games =/= anime, but it's something.

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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    The Dragonite at the Lake of Rage was wild.
    Did Ash catch it to give a sudden power up to his team? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Human View Post
    Lawfully right, morally wrong. She just conveniently got the Dragonite exactly before the tournament and used it to win, when the other trainers there probably trained their Pokemon for a long time.
    Really nothing new for the anime. Ash has done similar things many times. Not necessarily with a new capture, but with an existing member of his team who is inexperienced in the task at hand.[/QUOTE]
    I'm thinking that you're talking about Krabby evolving into Kingler in the Kanto League right? I'm pretty sure the same people had the same problem with it. Only, Ash relied on other Pokemon to advance further and his Kingler obeyed him.

    It's evolved to a Dragonite, it's going to be strong even if it grew up in the wild. They've only ever been shown as strong pokemon, they're not going to change that just because Iris is a relatively young trainer. Is it sorta deus ex that Iris got one to begin with? Yeah. But that's the nature of a machina and people just need to accept it at this point and stop whining about it and Iris.
    The problem is that we have to accept it to keep on tolerating its future appearances like in this episode when we don't want it. It's hard to chew it all up when the writers force it.

    Not a lot different than Dawn getting a Togekiss, really. There wasn't much complaining about that. And heck, it IS possible to catch wild Dragonite in the games, unlike Togekiss. Games =/= anime, but it's something.
    There was a lot of complaining about Dawn getting the Togekiss too by the same people. Regarding the Games =/= anime point you're seeming to make, I don't get it. Okay, lets look at it this way then:

    What if I somehow caught a strong Dragonite that I didn't even need to challenge myself to get and used it to beat people with it like in the episode?

  9. #84
    Protecting Gotham City Geodude's Avatar Super Moderator
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Human View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    The Dragonite at the Lake of Rage was wild.
    Did Ash catch it to give a sudden power up to his team? No.
    Not the point. That was an example of Dragonite being consistently portrayed as powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Human View Post
    I'm thinking that you're talking about Krabby evolving into Kingler in the Kanto League right?
    Maybe that was one of them. There was also the first Pokeringer episode, his solid performance (for a beginner) in the couple of contests he's entered, Snorlax winning that sumo wrestling tournament in Johto, coming in a VERY close second in the Pokethlon episode, and several other similar things over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Human View Post
    What if I somehow caught a strong Dragonite that I didn't even need to challenge myself to get and used it to beat people with it like in the episode?
    What about it? If it chose to go with you, you'd have every right to use it in whatever battle you wanted to.

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    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    Why is it that nobody seemed to care that Pikachu tied with Winona's Pelipper and lost to Skyla's Swanna, and yet there's this big stink over Dragonite surviving an Ice attack? Clear double standard to me, and further evidence of the strange dislike for Iris among people here.
    Maybe because you're totally missing the point that's being made and you're looking at this with a wildly different approach. Holism vs. Reductionism. You're seeing the complaining about Tsunbear being defeated by a Kairyu, reducing the argument to "Ice types shouldn't lose against Dragon types, Type advantages are everything" (which by the way isn't the argument most people are saying in this thread) and then saying, "Well, if you complain of a Pokémon winning despite a type disadvantage, then you must complain about every Pokémon winning with a type disadvantage." When, again, that's not the argument to begin with. How this battle, the episode and the arc affect the whole is what's being criticized here, not just based on type disadvantage, but also based on what came before for Iris' story (or lack thereof), how little is sustaining this storyline, how little impact on the character it's having, how it's impacting other characters, how the battle went down, the role the characters play in the show, in the episode, in Satoshi's story, etc.

    I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that Pokémon with a type disadvantage should never win a battle against a Pokémon they're weak to, so I don't see why you would call double standard when people aren't in any way, shape or form making any of this a hard fast rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    What about it? If it chose to go with you, you'd have every right to use it in whatever battle you wanted to.
    Again, what's being said for the most part here isn't that Iris doesn't have the "right" to use Kairyu, but rather that the prospect of Iris winning battles with a Pokémon she hasn't trained, hasn't worked with isn't compelling or really entertaining because she hasn't really earned those wins. It's not making me root for Iris, it's not making Iris likeable or interesting to me, it's honestly turning me off. Take Satoshi's Pokéringer victories that you mentioned, in both cases, Satoshi used a Pokémon he had caught in the beginning of the saga, that he had fought with, that he had grown alongside of and through their journey and battles, both got stronger. That culminates in an episode where all they went through, all they learned leads to an evolution and a win that's the result of what came before. Here, it's not. This win wasn't deserved in any way, wasn't earned, isn't the result of anything at all. It's hollow and meaningless, and therefore leaves me, and apparently a lot of people as well, completely cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    The Dragonite at the Lake of Rage was wild.
    No. The Dragonite that showed up at the Lake of Rage was Lance's. If you're thinking about the Dragonite that appeared in the Blackthorn arc in the Dragon's Holy Land, it also wasn't wild but belonged to the original Blackthorn Gym Leader, meaning he had received training to get that strong.
    Last edited by Hellion; 5th August 2012 at 09:48 PM.

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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    I indeed had the Lake of Rage one confused with the Blackthorn one. Apologies for the mistake.

    Considering your points, I'll leave this discussion for now and maybe come back once I've seen the episode. Before I go though, isn't Cynthia still around? She'll probably help with the Dragonite a bit.

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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    What can I say what hasn't been said well there's the fact that not only the first and last battles we're won with disadvantages but pretty much everyone else did. I guess Gollett versus Heatmor doesn't count because gollett might not know a ground move but the others come on. It makes sense to make the predetermined victor have a disadvantage to add drama but to do that repeatedly with short battles just shows you don't give a rat's ass about them. Why did Reuniculas use thunderbolt really? They could have had Cilan's Pansage use rock tomb at least for continuity nod but it just shows you that BW doesn't give a rat's ass about continuity. And then the episode feels the need to remind you that type advantages exist. Did not Dawn notice all the other battles (I'm sorry most).

    And another thing that was annoying about the final battle was Cilan comment "it depends on how they battle" Which is a legit comment considering the rest of the series. Now how did they fight. Well seems fair a first I actually liked the start Langley doesn't go straight for the ice moves and Dragonite just bitch slaps them. Cool I don't care at this moment that Iris will win Dragonite bitch slaping attacks is awesome. Then the ice moves start. Dragonite stops blocking it is entirely in cased in ice. Two ice beams Iris is in trouble now and just in time Dragonite gets compelled to fight and now the really battle begins and it's over. One punch one non stab neutrally effective punch. That is the difference between this and any other type disadvantage win. It was over in one punch. No consistency between how much attacks pokemon can take. Over in one punch.

    And this whole disobedience thing raises the question why did Dragonite even come with the group? If it wasn't willing to listen to Iris why did it get in that ball.

    I was really disappointed in this episode. People said don't complain about the capture until it happens. Fair point saw the capture didn't like it. People said don't complain about the battle until it happens. Fair point saw the battle didn't like it. From now on I'm going to try to assume the worst out BW based on the preview. At least then if there's something good it will make me pleasantly surprised.
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  13. #88

    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    This episode was horrible imo, all the battles were way too rushed, Dawn didn't even get a full scene battle for her only win and it's her cameo! -_-
    The only interesting parts were Burgundy yelling at Dawn to watch out for Cilan and Cynthia vs Caitlin.
    My rating a 3/10

  14. #89
    The Fire type :) mwetwe's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    Read the comments, wondered what all the fuss was about, watched it, then agreed with all the comments. This episode is below the expeectations I expect from pokemon. Season 2 was a sign of better plots and episodes, but this episode has not given me much faith. Most of the pokemon battles were rushed and the one battle that was prolonged was pretty bad. I mean as somone said, Dragonite surviving and Ice attack and winning? I dont think it should have...
    Last edited by mwetwe; 6th August 2012 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Thanks geodude xD

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    Not even my final form GreatLiver's Avatar
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    Default Re: BW 090 "The Junior Cup Gets Underway! Kairyu VS Tunbear!!"

    So actually watched this episode. First one since the Homika episodes. That exhibition match really was dull. About 3 attacks in the entire battle, and ending it with them just punching each other was very anticlimactic. It also brought out my absolute least favorite thing from contests, extraneous fireworks. And it just wouldn't stop. I haven't really been watching many episodes of BW so they may be showing up all the time, but first time I've noticed it since the end of DP. I just can't stand how the writers'll make anything explode into fireworks just for show. I also just found Caitlin to be very uninteresting. Didn't help she had one of the ugliest, most annoying, and most overused pokemon in DP. I really just didn't find myself caring about her at all.

    This probably falls under bashing a character for something not really relevant tot he episode, but this is my first, and last, time mentioning it so bare with me. I'm just now realizing how much I don't care for Dent and the whole tasting thing. I guess since I don't watch much it never bothers me, but it's bothering me a lot in this episode since Cabernet's also in there doing the same thing. I think this sommelier thing is just weird, and I don't fully understand why it was made up. Breeders reading pokemon and how much they got along with their trainer or whatever worked fine. Mentioning how everything tastes tough and gamey every time you talk is just weird.


    • Shooti's the same conceited douche he's always been with the whole Adeku needs to bow to me bit.
    • I really like the animation on Heatmor's like flame tongue thing. That may just be one of my favorite parts of this episode.
    • Dentula's such a cool pokemon, and it gets absolutely shafted of showing anything. Boo animators.
    • Oh a Reuniclus. What a cool pokemon that we see absolutely none of. Here's an idea, why not have Caitlin use that in the exhibition instead of a pokemon who's line shows up every 5 episode.


    I don't know if I like that they animated the little montage of the middle few battles that were quick. I almost think that it would have looked less cheap if they just cut together still frames of each of the defeats. Those are acceptable what with them having to fit so many battles into an episode, but I personally feel like the way they animated single attacks of one pokemon looking like they're one-shotting the other just makes it worse. Those quick montages can be fun, but when they're animated I think it takes something away from it.

    Apparently unlike everyone else, I really like this Dragonite battle. It's such a unique way to take it that we've never really seen. It batting off Hidden Powers was so bad ass. I honestly couldn't care that it's so overpowered and that people hate seeing Iris win anything. A pokemon fighting to fight and taking everything head on is something we really don't see and is unique to Dragonite. I think a pokemon like Dragonite is the perfect one for the writers to give that personality to. The OHKO could have been avoided and Tsunbear's loss could have been handled better, but I think it was a great premier of Dragonite in a trainer battle. Charizard was just kinda a dick when he didn't obey Satoshi way back. I don't even remember Manmoo, but from what I recall it just kinda charged around attacking people. But Dragonite's way of disobeying is completely different, and I personally think it's very fresh. He isn't beating up on Iris, he's just very battle oriented so he doesn't really comply with Iris in that regard just yet. I've gotta say I'm very much looking forward to what we'll see from Dragonite in the future.

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