BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

[Hellion]

Yeah, but like, it's a kids anime. They're thinking of the kids here.

God, I don't think there's an argument I tire more of seeing than the mindset that just because a show is for kids, it has a license to be badly written. I've seen tons of kids show that manage to be both entertaining and well written, have good characterization and compelling storylines, which, for about the last 8 years, included Pokémon.

BW so far is hit or miss and this episode, that I've rewatched after finding a translation of the dialogue... well... I'd say it's even more of a miss than I originally thought.

First thing that hit me when I rewatched it was how little it actually made me laugh, how little it was funny. There were almost no funny moments in the episode. Zuruggu headbutting Kibago and Dento remaining standing after Dragon Sneeze. Also, very little "Oh my god this is so cool the words leave me to describe how awesome it is" moments. Team Rocket dodging the Focus Blast, TR's pokémon fighting, but outside of that...

Things that bothered me about this episode dialogue wise...

- Iris stomping the ground when Kibago fails at Dragon Rage in the beginning.
Normally, this is the "Why is this happening to me? I've done everything I can for this to work" moment that I'd find endearing, but really, she hasn't done anything in the 29 first episode to solve the problem, so I don't know if the writers were trying to make me care, but really, they should have had Iris at least attempt to fix Dragon Sneeze before to justify the reaction. Plus, she's mad at Kibago because it's not getting it right, which further turned me off. Though what I liked in that scene was Ash coming to Kibago's defense, tellin Iris that he was giving it his all. That actually made Ash more likeable to me.

- Zuruggu goes away, so does the fun.

- Iris reveals her "mysterious" goal that...
... We all saw coming from a mile away... except again... I don't give a crap, because all the past 29 episodes, Iris really didn't do anything towards achieving that goal and didn't quite seem to care about achieving it.

- At the end, Iris identifies Draco Meteor and explains Crimgan's trainer how it works
A- That should have been Ash's job to do
B- It just made me wonder where was all this knowledge and practical know-how when it was time to train her own dragon...

- No in-dialogue explanation is given for Kibago's mastery of Dragon Rage.
Well, we know it's nothing that Iris did since we never saw her train specifically Kibago to master the attack, never offered any advice to solve the problem, but still, there's not a smidge of explanation which leads me to think it's either a fluke (which I hope not) or that Kibago learned by seeing Crmgan do Draco Meteor.

Things I liked about the dialogue: Thankfully, no hint about Crimgan's trainer returning. She was dull.

So yeah... Iris is sorta dead to me now, so does are pretty much my final thoughts on the subject. The only thing they could do with her character that might interest me is a Dragon Cup type competition, and that's only if Ash participates and brings in Gible to slaughter everything in sight, including Iris' dragon :D If not... well, I'll have to make due with Bianca and Cabernet as far as entertaining and interesting female characters in the anime as far as Best Wishes go. :P

[Yoshi-san]

God, I don't think there's an argument I tire more of seeing than the mindset that just because a show is for kids, it has a license to be badly written. I've seen tons of kids show that manage to be both entertaining and well written, have good characterization and compelling storylines, which, for about the last 8 years, included Pokémon.

BW so far is hit or miss and this episode, that I've rewatched after finding a translation of the dialogue... well... I'd say it's even more of a miss than I originally thought.

First thing that hit me when I rewatched it was how little it actually made me laugh, how little it was funny. There were almost no funny moments in the episode. Zuruggu headbutting Kibago and Dento remaining standing after Dragon Sneeze. Also, very little "Oh my god this is so cool the words leave me to describe how awesome it is" moments. Team Rocket dodging the Focus Blast, TR's pokémon fighting, but outside of that...

Things that bothered me about this episode dialogue wise...

- Iris stomping the ground when Kibago fails at Dragon Rage in the beginning.
Normally, this is the "Why is this happening to me? I've done everything I can for this to work" moment that I'd find endearing, but really, she hasn't done anything in the 29 first episode to solve the problem, so I don't know if the writers were trying to make me care, but really, they should have had Iris at least attempt to fix Dragon Sneeze before to justify the reaction. Plus, she's mad at Kibago because it's not getting it right, which further turned me off. Though what I liked in that scene was Ash coming to Kibago's defense, tellin Iris that he was giving it his all. That actually made Ash more likeable to me.

Whoa, hold up. Iris was complaining about Dent calling Dragon Rage "Dragon Sneeze". She wasn't mad at Kibago at all.

- Zuruggu goes away, so does the fun.

- Iris reveals her "mysterious" goal that...
... We all saw coming from a mile away... except again... I don't give a crap, because all the past 29 episodes, Iris really didn't do anything towards achieving that goal and didn't quite seem to care about achieving it.

I saw it a mile away too though I want to see it go through. Now that the anime as a whole is better with character goals, I think it won't be like Misty's situation.

- At the end, Iris identifies Draco Meteor and explains Crimgan's trainer how it works
A- That should have been Ash's job to do
B- It just made me wonder where was all this knowledge and practical know-how when it was time to train her own dragon...

Well continuity would be nice but since Iris is knowledgeable about the Dragon type since she lived in a village that focuses on the Dragon type, she WOULD know about Dragon type moves.

- No in-dialogue explanation is given for Kibago's mastery of Dragon Rage.
Well, we know it's nothing that Iris did since we never saw her train specifically Kibago to master the attack, never offered any advice to solve the problem, but still, there's not a smidge of explanation which leads me to think it's either a fluke (which I hope not) or that Kibago learned by seeing Crmgan do Draco Meteor.

Maybe it was linked with Iris's growth as a character from this episode? Plus she did train her Kibago and before you compare it to Satoshi's training with Gible, you know that it was just forced comic relief with Piplup.

[Hellion]

Whoa, hold up. Iris was complaining about Dent calling Dragon Rage "Dragon Sneeze". She wasn't mad at Kibago at all.

She was frustrated by Kibago not getting Dragon Rage right, which you can tell by the writers having Ash come to its defense. I don't know if they wanted to endear Iris to the audience with that scene, but if they wanted to... might have been important to show Iris doing something to fix it in the past 29 episodes, besides whining.

Now that the anime as a whole is better with character goals, I think it won't be like Misty's situation.

Or DP Brock... or AG Max...

she WOULD know about Dragon type moves.

The same way she had no knowledge about how to help Kibago for 29 episodes... >___>

Maybe it was linked with Iris's growth as a character from this episode?

She grew? Did she gain new knowledge she didn't have before? No. Did her outlook on things changed in this episode? No. Did she become a more competent trainer? No. So... what growth?

Plus she did train her Kibago

Never worked specifically on Dragon Rage, never offered a solution, tried things, never shared a knowledge of what might be wrong.

before you compare it to Satoshi's training with Gible, you know that it was just forced comic relief with Piplup.

I never brought the topic of Ash's Gible in the discussion, but since you do. Again, Ash learned from Wilma how the attack worked (gaining knowledge) in DP156, and followed her instructions (applying the knowledge) starting in DP158. Iris has failed to show any kind of knowledge on the workings of Dragon Sneeze or how to solve Kibago's problem.

[Sushi]

She was frustrated by Kibago not getting Dragon Rage right, which you can tell by the writers having Ash come to its defense.

No. Ash didn't come to Axew's defense. If anything, he was the one who remarked how this stupid move just wouldn't work but softened his comment by making it clear that he didn't blame Axew and knew that it was trying its best beforehand. Trust me on this one. Iris was angry at Cilan, nothing more.

The pieces of advice Iris gave to Emmy in this episode were 1) to trust your Pokémon and to make it trust you as well and 2) to be patient.

She follows both of these herself as she never stopped believing that Axew would master Dragon Rage someday (and kept on trying to use it) despite numerous failures. Yes, writing-wise, it's a little problematic that she never tried to give additional advice to Axew on how it could make Dragon Rage actually come out of its mouth (or just to incorporate twists to their practice in general), but to be fair, Ash is just as guilty of that with Gible. He never tried anything other than to simply command Draco Meteor over and over, all the way until the Sinnoh League.

Then again, despite this seeming a little redundant to the viewers (and justifiedly so), it appears to be the right way to go with Dragon types. Gible mastered Draco Meteor - not by implementing some sort of trick but by using the move for the 9394043th time, just like Axew and its Dragon Rage. As Cilan pointed out at the end of the episode, time seems to be a huge factor when trying to raise Dragon types. Iris spelled it out for us in this episode: They simply take a little longer in their growth process. Granted, the writers surely didn't give it that much thought, but the repeated use of the move could, for example, have strengthened Axew's jaw or its abdominals to be able to fully execute the move. Just a suggestion ;P

I don't really buy your claims that you would give Iris one last chance with this episode either. I'm probably not the only one who didn't believe for a second that you'd change your opinion about her, no matter how this episode would turn out. Sorry if I'm having the wrong impression here, but the way I see it, you gave up on her a long time ago. It'll always be harder for her to impress you than it'll be for other characters. You'll always catch inconsistencies/mistakes in her story more easily and more quickly than in episodes about Ash or Cilan.

Not trying to sound particularly accusing or anything - everyone seems to have at least one pet peeve in this series. It's just that with you... the characters in question seemed to have rubbed you the wrong way in their initial episodes and now they're going to pay for it for the rest of this series. And with Iris being a main character... well, a short, annoyed sidejab-comment in each episode she doesn't star in plus one or two paragraphs of complaints for each episode she does star in... Well, you could probably publish a book on her with the material you'll have by the end of BW ;)

[Paperhorse]

Good episode overall. But I think Team Rocket is what really made the episode fun. Love those Jet packs!

- Iris reveals her "mysterious" goal that...
... We all saw coming from a mile away... except again... I don't give a crap, because all the past 29 episodes, Iris really didn't do anything towards achieving that goal and didn't quite seem to care about achieving it.

I am not a fan of Iris's goal either. I think this goal makes it very hard for her to develop as a character. There are no "benchmarks" for her to show development with this goal, like there was with Dawn's contests.

How much can they show Iris trying to achieve her goals when there are no benchmarks that she passes to show that she is developing?

Goals that are too broad like hers do not work.

[Hellion]

No. Ash didn't come to Axew's defense. If anything, he was the one who remarked how this stupid move just wouldn't work but softened his comment by making it clear that he didn't blame Axew and knew that it was trying its best beforehand. Trust me on this one. Iris was angry at Cilan, nothing more.

That's not what it looked like to me or what I read when I saw the translation, but I'll trust you on that one since you assuredly know more Japanese than I do.

Ash is just as guilty of that with Gible. He never tried anything other than to simply command Draco Meteor over and over, all the way until the Sinnoh League.

The episode that introduces Gible and DP158 disproves that. Ash knew what he was doing and tried implementing the advice that Wilma gave him. And it was also shown to get better during the Grand Festival (IIRC) when Draco Meteor split in two, after which we rarely saw Draco Meteor until it was perfected in the League, showing a clear knowledge and progression.

Not just poof! move mastered.

It's just that with you... the characters in question seemed to have rubbed you the wrong way in their initial episodes and now they're going to pay for it for the rest of this series.

Not at all, I actually liked Iris in her introduction episode and for the first episodes of the series (my opinion on it can be read in the respective thread of the episode) but over time, the not doing anything combined with the "you're such a child" comments eroded that initial feeling and when I look back 30 episodes down the road, I don't see anything in there that's realy redeeming Iris. She's just there. Not a detriment to the show, but actually not bringing anything to it either, whether it be entertainment value, compelling storyline, etc.

I actually honestly went into this episode giving it a fair chance. But as I mentioned, it didn't make me laugh and didn't make me care. There's just nothing in it that interested me beyond Zuruggu and the Rockets.

That's all.

I am not a fan of Iris's goal either. I think this goal makes it very hard for her to develop as a character. There are no "benchmarks" for her to show development with this goal, like there was with Dawn's contests.

How much can they show Iris trying to achieve her goals when there are no benchmarks that she passes to show that she is developing?

Goals that are too broad like hers do not work.

The benchmarks I think will be Iris evolving Kibago, but overall, what bores me about it is less the lack of benchmarks than it is the nothing Iris has so far done to reach it, same way I never felt interested in say... Brock's goal.

[Yoshi-san]

No. Ash didn't come to Axew's defense. If anything, he was the one who remarked how this stupid move just wouldn't work but softened his comment by making it clear that he didn't blame Axew and knew that it was trying its best beforehand. Trust me on this one. Iris was angry at Cilan, nothing more.

The pieces of advice Iris gave to Emmy in this episode were 1) to trust your Pokémon and to make it trust you as well and 2) to be patient.

She follows both of these herself as she never stopped believing that Axew would master Dragon Rage someday (and kept on trying to use it) despite numerous failures. Yes, writing-wise, it's a little problematic that she never tried to give additional advice to Axew on how it could make Dragon Rage actually come out of its mouth (or just to incorporate twists to their practice in general), but to be fair, Ash is just as guilty of that with Gible. He never tried anything other than to simply command Draco Meteor over and over, all the way until the Sinnoh League.

Then again, despite this seeming a little redundant to the viewers (and justifiedly so), it appears to be the right way to go with Dragon types. Gible mastered Draco Meteor - not by implementing some sort of trick but by using the move for the 9394043th time, just like Axew and its Dragon Rage. As Cilan pointed out at the end of the episode, time seems to be a huge factor when trying to raise Dragon types. Iris spelled it out for us in this episode: They simply take a little longer in their growth process. Granted, the writers surely didn't give it that much thought, but the repeated use of the move could, for example, have strengthened Axew's jaw or its abdominals to be able to fully execute the move. Just a suggestion ;P

My thoughts exactly. I like how they pointed out that Dragons are harder to raise because in-game they take longer to evolve.

Also I like how even though Iris herself is immature, she's mature enough to know that it takes time to train Dragons.

[Hellion]

Also I like how even though Iris herself is immature, she's mature enough to know that it takes time to train Dragons.

Does she knows it also takes actual training to train Dragons? :P

[Sushi]

The episode that introduces Gible and DP158 disproves that. Ash knew what he was doing and tried implementing the advice that Wilma gave him. And it was also shown to get better during the Grand Festival (IIRC) when Draco Meteor split in two, after which we rarely saw Draco Meteor until it was perfected in the League, showing a clear knowledge and progression.

Not just poof! move mastered.

That is true. However, Wilma's advice was more like a description on how the move works in the first place. Given that Iris knew what Dragon Rage should be like as proven in BW009, we can assume that she told Axew what to do when they began training (which was quite a long time before they met Ash).

Afterwards - just like Ash - she probably just went on to simply command the attack because there wasn't much more she could do other than to try it again and again, hoping that Axew's little body would become strong enough to handle the attack in the process. It's just a theory, but that's how I see it. As for the progress Gible made with Draco Meteor, that was (afaik) not a result of Ash telling it to try something different but simply proof that Gible was beginning to adapt to the attack with time. It was a failure on the writers' part not to show a "half-mastered" version of Dragon Rage or anything else inbetween, but surely nothing you could specifically blame on Iris' characterization or her attitude towards training.

Not at all, I actually liked Iris in her introduction episode and for the first episodes of the series (my opinion on it can be read in the respective thread of the episode) but over time, the not doing anything combined with the "you're such a child" comments eroded that initial feeling and when I look back 30 episodes down the road, I don't see anything in there that's realy redeeming Iris. She's just there. Not a detriment to the show, but actually not bringing anything to it either, whether it be entertainment value, compelling storyline, etc.

I see. Maybe it would've helped if her focus episodes had been spread out a little more. I recall that you didn't see BW027/028 as particularly Iris-centered either, but at least she had a lot of screentime and wasn't just "talk" and nothing more. In that case, I'd agree that the writers let her sit out for a little too long there, but what's done is done I guess.

I also think that Iris, similarly to Misty (and Ash for that matter), is a slightly 'risky' character. She has an extremely big mouth and while she does have plenty of knowledge and athletic abilities to back it up, she also uses it to cover up a lot of failures and inexperience as well. I can understand that there's an extreme split within the fanbase, with some being caught on the wrong foot by her divisive actions, while others find her antics to be adorable.

[Hellion]

That is true. However, Wilma's advice was more like a description on how the move works in the first place.

IIRC, she mentions the "mechanics" behind the move, i.e. concentrating Dragon power in your center, building it up, pointing at the sky and releasing the attack, which Ash puts into practice later on. But to compare with Kibago, we saw Ash training with Gible, we saw progression (as Gible mastered the move by Ash ordering him to use the attack at point blank before he could master it) and when we finally saw the move totally mastered in the Takuto battle, with Takuto praising the attack's power... it comes at the end of a process, of efforts, etc. Ash learns knowledge, applies that knowledge, he and Gible both grow and voilà... meaning.

Here... it's pretty much just poof! Move mastered and Iris has nothing to do with it.... no meaning.

we can assume

she probably

That translates as the writers didn't actually show it.

Maybe it would've helped if her focus episodes had been spread out a little more.

It has little to do with it. It's actually more the episodes that don't focus on her than turned me off to the character, because she's not doing anything in them, barely contributing and again, not really bringing any entertainment or compellingness to the show. The recent litwick episode was a glaring example where Ash, TR, Cilan, all have entertaining hilarious moments, they all fight to save their lives when the litwick try to send them to some hell dimension, to the point where I actually forgot that Iris was even in the episode, because that's how little of an impact she made.

If this was an isolated occurence, fine, but this is the case of an overwhelming majority of BW episodes.

I recall that you didn't see BW027/028 as particularly Iris-centered either, but at least she had a lot of screentime and wasn't just "talk" and nothing more.

That's the other part of the problem: her "focus" episodes. They are so less because she does a lot in them and really plays an intricate part in them, but more because everyone does less and has their personality chips off. Like in BW027, where Iris didn't do anything noteworthy, where she stood in the background as Emonga and Kibago interacted and Ash saved the day. This week's episode was also a good example of that. Cilan, Ash, Team Rocket, Boring COTD, everyone's personality was toned down, that even applied to the pokémon with neither Scraggy or Tepig showcasing their trademark character traits and Crimgan being overall a pedestrian POTD (who looked really cool though, but personality wise...).

It really made it feel like the writers have to rely on making everyone a pale copy of their usual selves just to make Iris stand out and seem interesting, but even then... whether they succeed is up for debate.

[Sushi]

IIRC, she mentions the "mechanics" behind the move, i.e. concentrating Dragon power in your center, building it up, pointing at the sky and releasing the attack, which Ash puts into practice later on.

Meh, I don't see it as anything more than a mere explanation of how it works. 'sides, Gible was doing just that when Ash offered to train with it... only to command exactly what Wilma had said before, word for word. As much as I love Ash, he was Captain Obvious here. It's like telling your Pokémon that wants to learn Flamethrower to take a deep breath and shoot flames out of its mouth.

The recent litwick episode was a glaring example where Ash, TR, Cilan, all have entertaining hilarious moments, they all fight to save their lives when the litwick try to send them to some hell dimension, to the point where I actually forgot that Iris was even in the episode, because that's how little of an impact she made.

I thought it'd have been severely inappropriate to have Iris participate in that battle, given that it didn't ask for comic relief, which would've happened if she had used any of her Pokémon (Excadrill in drill mode, Axew blowing up the entire place or waddling awkwardly with its Scratch attack, or Emolga... which could've listened to her orders, but then people would've screamed DEM because she was shown having trouble with it in the previous episode).

Also, I had no trouble with Iris in that episode in general. Her interaction with Ash at the beginning of the episode, down to her glaring at Cilan when he was acting like he knew a Pokémon was behind the scary stuff along, was pretty funny imo. Whatever. This doesn't belong here anyway.

I don't know. Sometimes you seem to acknowledge that much of your criticism towards Iris is based on bias alone, but then you go around acting like her character is all about bad writing. I do realize how there were initial pacing issues regarding her story, but other than that, I see a cute, childish girl who likes to pick at her equally childish friend, who often falls flat on her face but then redeems herself by showing admirable knowledge and a funny sixth sense which sometimes fails and sometimes works. I'm sorry that this combination doesn't work out for you, but I'm enjoying her character thoroughly.

[Hellion]

As much as I love Ash, he was Captain Obvious here.

I was more referring to the Conway battle. The main problem with Gible's Draco Meteor was targeting, which Ash solved by asking Gible to fire Draco Meteor at point blank.

Thing is, in this case, what makes this different than the what, 6-7 times we saw Kibago use Dragon Rage... Nothing and right then and there that number is telling.

I thought it'd have been severely inappropriate to have Iris participate in that battle, given that it didn't ask for comic relief

If it was the only time Iris had stayed on the sidelines doing nothing, I might see your point, but it's chronic and doesn't excuse the fact that she all but disppeared from the screen for the last 5 minutes of this episode.

Sometimes you seem to acknowledge that much of your criticism towards Iris is based on bias alone, but then you go around acting like her character is all about bad writing.

No, when I criticize Iris, my opinion is based on what I see, or more what I don't see, in the episodes themselves. I didn't have any pre-conceived ideas against Iris coming into Best Wishes, no bias to speak of. I watched the episodes and slowly formed an opinion on the character that was cristalized by the writers not handling her character properly, which then led me to care less and less for Iris, ultimately leading me to the opinion that Iris is a thoroughly uninteresting character.

I'm sorry that this combination doesn't work out for you, but I'm enjoying her character thoroughly.

And you're allowed to. I never tried to stop anybody from liking Iris, finding interesting her character. I don't because there's nothing I've seen so far that redeem the flaws in the way she is characterized and showcased, no standout endearing personality trait, no compelling storyline, way too few comedic moments, etc.

[pokemon fan 132]

God, I don't think there's an argument I tire more of seeing than the mindset that just because a show is for kids, it has a license to be badly written.

Quality is often subjective being up to debate.

Or DP Brock... or AG Max...

Invalid examples,Max didnt had a goal being too young to have pokemon which with itself caused consequence of writers not having much material to work with.In Brocks case nature of his goal of being breeder never being much about battling or competing caused problems for writers to do more with him being easier to develop characters who has more "active quests",
Other part of reason behind Brocks neglect is coming from writers perception of probably viewing Brocks role as being older caretaker and mentor to group as being good enough not seeing need to increase his role.

However in DP Brock was actually treated little better than he was in Hoenn.

She grew? Did she gain new knowledge she didn't have before? No. Did her outlook on things changed in this episode? No. Did she become a more competent trainer? No. So... what growth?

They are referring to growth in trainer sense.By having Axew mastering dragon rage Iris made step forward in raising dragons serving as testament to her skills as trainer.As she gets better selfesteem will start to increase becoming more confident in herself and her abilities.

I watched the episodes and slowly formed an opinion on the character that was cristalized by the writers not handling her character properly, which then led me to care less and less for Iris, ultimately leading me to the opinion that Iris is a thoroughly uninteresting character.

Personally i cant see any big flaws so far in Iris treatment as character,.She had nice dynamic with group,well done characterization bringing some humor and spice to interactions along with being given some focus,just not in amount you expected she will receive.

Lately writers seem to start giving her more screen time being their way to balance out properly focus between Ash,Cilan and her.Considering how most plots tied to Iris story are bound to happen in second part of Unova(like possible involvement with Team Plasma arc,8th gym etc)majority of focus regarding Iris character will probably happen than with Cilan taking in exchange backseat.

You did mistake in start of expecting too much from sidekick.

[Sushi]

The main problem with Gible's Draco Meteor was targeting, which Ash solved by asking Gible to fire Draco Meteor at point blank.

Axew's Dragon Rage didn't have targeting issues, though. It simply didn't come out of its mouth because Axew couldn't handle the power of the attack. I admit I'm not the creative type in the first place, but I can't think of a better way to solve such a problem than to try it again and again, letting the Pokémon gradually adapt to the strength and size of the attack. It's boring and tedious, but it's also a testament to how patient Iris is with her Pokémon.

If it was the only time Iris had stayed on the sidelines doing nothing, I might see your point, but it's chronic and doesn't excuse the fact that she all but disppeared from the screen for the last 5 minutes of this episode.

With Axew mastering Dragon Rage and Emolga being semi-obedient, her battling options have become quite a bit better than before. Yeah, I know, don't care anymore and all, but given that she generally seems willing to battle, the situation should become better since she's now actually able to do so ;]

No, when I criticize Iris, my opinion is based on what I see, or more what I don't see, in the episodes themselves.

If you say so ^^"

And you're allowed to. I never tried to stop anybody from liking Iris

Of course I am, and I know you weren't trying to stop me ;] I was trying to show that maybe, maybe Iris isn't as bad as she may seem to you. You say you don't care and that she isn't a detriment to the show, I know, but you seem to care enough to devote a weekly statement to her, so I thought I'd give it a try ^_^

[Tsutarja]

Hellion - For a guy who doesn't care about Iris, you sure seem to spend an awful amount of time talking about her. Are you sure you don't care about her? Maybe you're just in denial.