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Why The First 5 Seasons Are The Very Best, Like No One Ever Was! - Tentative Title

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by , 3rd March 2013 at 08:55 PM (6078 Views)
Welcome to ★stickerstaryoshi's☆ first ever blog entry! I've decided to do this after being inspired by certain blogs, but I digress. (Huh, this seemed so much easier before I actually started writing.)

Why The First Five Seasons of Pokemon Are The Very Best, Like No One Ever Was! (Part 1?) - Tentative Title

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Inspired by: pokemon fan 132

We all know how the anime has changed since 2002, and not necessarily for the better, either. I'll explain as I go along. I didn't have much time to finish, so I just settled for splitting this into at least 2 parts, hope no one minds.

~~~Characters~~~

Ash started off as a naive, optimistic kid. It was quite funny to watch him make a fool of himself. Then throughout OI, and Johto, he matured, while still keeping traces of his old personality. Many people admire Hoenn for having a "mature" Ash, but not only did Johto do it first, but it did it better. He wasn't learning lessons that he had already learned back in Kanto, unlike in Season 6+. To add to that, Johto still had him as a real character, instead of the "OMGILOVEPOKEMONLETSBATTLE" stereotyped shonen cliche he would later become.

Misty. Like I said above:

Misty was a temperamental girl who had a nice side
But there was more to her than that. For starters, she had to deal with living in the shadows of her sisters, making her more sympathetic than the average "tsundere". Like Ash, she developed throughout the course of OI and Johto, becoming more mature and less impatient, though still keeping traces of her personality. She kinda had to be patient, considering she was dealing with two babies (Ash and Togepi) :P . I don't think Togepi destroyed her character at all, in fact, Togepi was one of the best things to happen to her. Togepi forced the writers to explore other traces of her personality instead of always using her angry side. In addition, she was more motherly, and didn't conform to stereotypical gender standards. Yes, she was feminine, but not too girly. Now for (nearly) everyone's favorite black gym leader...no, not Lenora...

Brock! He is perhaps my favorite of the three, despite what would happen to him later on. It was funny and ironic to see a caretaker like Brock being completely serious, only to do a complete 180 when he saw a girl, usually resulting in him either getting dragged away by Misty, or REJECTED. Many will also say that Brock didn't change, but I disagree. Like Brock, the changes are just subtle. At first, he was completely serious (though compassionate), but by GCYL, he had learned to let himself feel sad in front of his friends (usually his crying was played for laughs), and he got a little less serious. Minor changes, but still development regardless.

With this kind of group dynamic, you'd think they'd stick around for quite a while, right? They really seemed inseparable and irreplaceable, but sadly, it didn't last. Misty leaving was perhaps the biggest mistake the anime has made, and probably always will be. Yes, even more than the voice change (at least that only affected the English dub). Since Misty left, character interactions have went downhill, and so have the characters themselves. None of the people who came in afterwards have been nearly as good as her (although I'm fine with Iris). And now, in BW, Brock is gone, this time for good. Without Misty to turn to, Brock got more and more flanderized, same with Ash, who got more and more boring.

~~~Plot Details, and how Pokemon Compares to Other Media~~~

Everyone who's kept up with the anime for at least a while knows what happens at the start of each generation, and what will happen in the next: Ash leaves his friends behind and replaces them with other people, he leaves all of his Pokemon behind except for Pikachu. This might have been okay had it only happened ONCE, but sadly, that's not the case. It just makes it that much harder to invest in the characters, knowing they're soon going to have to leave. Instead of just relying on the reset button as a cop out, they should work with what they have and make their characters better. Making a "fresh start" isn't ADDRESSING the problem, it's just covering it up (very thinly, I might add), and adding new problems, too. What good is character investment when they'll fall victim to the endless cycle? This is an indirect example of Misty leaving affecting the anime negatively.

I will never get why they had to replace Misty and Brock to begin with, it just doesn't work. By now, we're all so used to it that it hardly affects us anymore, but for me, it's still not right. To give you an idea of what I mean, imagine a Mickey Mouse series without Pluto, or even Goofy. It MIGHT work, but it just feels off. Even if they did get stale, why not redeem them? After all, they managed to make Dawn more entertaining (despite her unsatisfying cameo), why couldn't they do the same with Misty or Brock? Other shows keep the same characters and do just fine. Granted, they sometimes get derailed, but is the alternative (character replacement) really much better?

Another thing people like to point out is that we are not the target audience, and that they are only writing for kids. If that's the case, why are they bringing back old characters in BW? Why have cameos at all? Why did they show the Misty lure back in DP? Did they just choose randomly? (Personally, I think it was a desperate ratings trap, and it worked too :P ). Other kids shows have something for everyone, and so did Pokemon - for a time. My Little Pony (which I don't watch) is for little girls, but the creators are apparently actively working to please the adult male demographic (bronies). Heck, grown men are buying the toys, which people say they won't do for Pokemon. If you can get grown men to buy MLP toys, why not Pokemon, right?

For a more gender-neutral example, Animaniacs, Tiny Toons, Looney Tunes, Rocko's Modern Life, etc. were for kids, but still had adult references so that EVERYONE can enjoy. Even today, people still love these shows, because they just hold up. I don't think I've seen a single person complain about any of those shows. In the long run, aiming for as wide of an audience as possible is beneficial to ratings, reputation, and the like. If Pokemon didn't limit itself to a kid audience and actually address their problems, it could have the same critical reception as the ones mentioned above.

~~~Rivalries (aka Gary was here, Paul and Trip are LOSERS!!!)~~~

We all know Gary Oak, right? Yes? Then I'll just get into the rivalry. His rivalry with Ash was GREAT. Every single time he appeared, he taunted Ash and got an angered reaction out of him, and it was always funny. Then we have Paul, who is loved by most of the fandom. In my honest opinion? He's boring, and so is the rivalry. He's powerful, yes, but he really has no personality. His backstory was sad, but it was pretty hard to feel sorry for him. Perhaps if he wasn't a douche to everyone he met, and wasn't a cardboard cutout, this wouldn't be the case. It does seem original on the surface, but when you actually witness it, it's just an overglorified "COTD is being mean to his Pokemon" subplot drawn out for almost 200 episodes! The actual rivalry was nothing more than "Ash and Paul meet up, Ash tries to be nice to him, Paul acts like a douche, Ash gets all whiny", each and every time. At that point, Ash was also boring, so it made the rivalry even more unengaging. Now Trip...he's at least little more interesting than Paul. So what's my problem with his rivalry? Ash. He really doesn't react to what Trip says or does, just shrugs it off. The rivalry might be somewhat more engaging if Ash played his role in it correctly, but he pretty much just goes through the motions here. Also, the writers have yet again attempted to "freshen" things up by making him a rookie trainer, resulting in, you guessed it, a ton of complaints (this, coupled with Ash's regression, did not help matters at all).

So, yeah, Gary >>>>>> Trip >>>>>> Paul.

The winner is Gary Oak!!!

~~~Emotion~~~

I'm sure this is no contest, OS has much more genuine emotion than the rest. For example, Pikachu's Goodbye had Ash thinking of leaving Pikachu, thinking that it would be better for him to stay in the forest with all the other Pikachu than continue on with him. Now, we all knew that Pikachu wouldn't actually leave, but seeing Ash get all choked up when about to abandon his first Pokemon, and Pikachu wanting to stay with him - it's enough to make anyone feel for him. In Snow Way Out, we had Ash about to freeze to death, and trying to get Pikachu into his ball so he wouldn't share the same fate, but he refuses to stay in, despite the weather condition. Then, soon enough, his Pokemon all come out to warm him up. That alone showed how strong his bond with Pikachu - and his other Pokemon - is. This hasn't really been explored in newer series (the Ash + Pikachu bond in particular is now nothing more than "just take out word for it okay?").

Ash and co. were not the only one who could provide emotion - Team Rocket could, too! In Go West Young Meowth, we saw how Meowth learned to talk in order to impress Meowsie, a female Meowth, but it only led to her looking down on him as a Persian swept him off his feet, leading him to hate the Persian species. Who wouldn't feel sorry for him after that? Jessie and James have pretty sad backstories, too. Later on in Chronicles/AG/DP, the new backstory additions caused timeline errors/plotholes, but back then, there was no problem.

~~~Leagues~~~

You know something else that was better back then? The leagues. The Indigo League was a tournament (I like the anime's approach on the "after-badge quest"), but there was more to it than just the battles. This league was more of a culmination of Ash's journey, featuring his friends, as well as league-only rivals. Many didn't like how he lost, and while it was frustrating, it made sense from an in-universe perspective. It wasn't as bad as a lot of what would come after...

Next, the Orange League. Instead of just a battle tournament, the viewers found Ash doing various sports (racing, mountain climbing, etc.), with some battles inbetween. After he got the 4 OI badges, he then fought Drake (and won!). THIS was not only a nice change of pace, but he actually won a league! Not a main region league, but still.

The Silver Conference was great as well, it finally gave the Ash vs Gary rivalry sone closure, and it showed how far Ash had come. I considered this a return to form after the OI format (not that I had anything against it). He lost to Harrison's Blaziken with Charizard (who listened, at least), but at least it was a fair fight.

Hoenn League: It wasn't that bad, but not that good either. All of the other competitiors were just random people (I even count Morrison and Tyson because they appeared too late), didn't help that Ash had no rival. It got boring seeing just the Hoenn Pokemon, and the way Ash lost was pretty unsatisfying. Nothing really stood out to me besides the Meowth in boots.

Sinnoh League: Weak. It started off pretty lame, with Ash's battle with Nando (I honestly forgot about this guy) being skimmed through by Team Rocket (did they REALLY need to be in this episode?). It got better later on, although I thought the AvP 3-parter was too drawn out. Then all of a sudden, Tobias randomly appeared. No background, no personality, nothing, he was just a guy with 2 (not one, but TWO!!) legendaries, created only to beat Ash. As bad as that sounds, it's still better than...

Unova League: We've all seen it, we all hated it. This does not need explaining.

So that's it for now.

Oh, and before ANYONE pulls out the nostalgia card, note that I still like Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, etc. - things from my CHILDHOOD. In fact, Super Mario Galaxy is among my favorite games. If I was really "nostalgic", wouldn't I hate this game?

Withdraw all nostalgia cards please.

~stickerstaryoshi

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Updated 18th February 2014 at 11:56 AM by speedingbulletbill

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  1. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Misty was less interesting and memorable than in Kanto/Orange Islands, and her focus episodes were too far apart, (naturally, Johto was 157 episodes).

    Brock is obvious better here than later arcs, but he still didn't really do much in Johto. There are only what...about 10 Brock episodes at the most over the entire span of Johto?
  2. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    It's still a lot better than nothing. And when she did get focus, it was good, same with Brock.

    I agree that Brock is better in Johto in later arcs, but he's not this god awful character you say he is, when he got focus in later arcs, he was good.
  3. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain
    It's still a lot better than nothing. And when she did get focus, it was good, same with Brock.
    So basically Misty got 15 Johto episodes at the most where she has a role in, but the other 140 or so she's just there to stand on the sidelines making the usual dull observation comments that any character makes. She basically functioned as a second version of Brock either repeating his comments or making the usual generic talk to filler characters that any character makes. Misty had no purpose for the majority of Johto, and you could tell the writers were really bored with her character and probably already knew they were dropping her by the time we were halfway into it.

    The Whirl Cup always seemed like it was the writers way of saying, "Crap, we didn't do anything important with Misty's water goal in her entire run in the show so far, let's just make one quick water pokemon tournament before she leaves." and they left it at that.

    She was also definitely the least focused on female lead at the time.

    I agree that Brock is better in Johto in later arcs, but he's not this god awful character you say he is, when he got focus in later arcs, he was good.
    Brock got worse in each passing saga he was in. He was still OK mostly in Hoenn, but it was obvious he was being pushed into the sidelines at that point. By the time DP came around he was totally pointless. Ash no longer needed a mentor and he had no chemistry with Dawn at all. The breeding episodes he got were just repeats of his earlier episodes. And don't get me started on how Brock hardly ever battled or captured Pokemon, essentially making his role limited.

    The DP incarnation of Brock in particular was painful, because that's when he even stopped feeling like a character.
  4. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    You're exaggeraing like usual, Misty got more than that. She may not ahve had that many episodes centered around her, but she got a lot of good moments. And at least they DID address the "issue" bnefore they wrote her off.

    Brock was worse in DP, but not god awful as I said before. He was definitely better in the original series.
  5. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Misty was heavily flanderized in Johto to the point where everyone commented on it back when Johto was originally airing. And who are you trying to fool?

    We've all watched the same Johto saga, there aren't many Misty focused episodes in the saga. If I'm being generous I'd say 20 at the most but that's pushing it.

    And Misty befriending wild Pokemon, capturing pokemon or battling is the same things every other female lead does. So I don't see why you think what Misty was doing was so important.
  6. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    Do you even know what *flanderized* means?

    That's basically what I said, but even in episodes where she didn't get focus, she still had her moments. She didn't have that much mroe focus in Kanto or Orange.
  7. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain
    Do you even know what *flanderized* means?

    That's basically what I said, but even in episodes where she didn't get focus, she still had her moments. She didn't have that much mroe focus in Kanto or Orange.
    Kanto and Orange were shorter sagas, so her character episodes weren't that far apart.

    And I do know what flanderized means. Misty becoming a demure, motherly character without her temper, having no impact on most episodes and fading into the background to the point where the head writer said he couldn't justify Misty's existence in the show says a lot. If you consider this development, then all it did was make Misty more boring. Almost everyone considers Johto to be the weakest run for Misty compared to the first two seasons.

    Even Misty's crush on Ash was basically downplayed in Johto because they knew they weren't going to do anything with it.

    And this is exactly why people feel Misty was an unfinished character, because her last arc treated her like a background character rather than giving her an actual role and it showed. I bet if Misty's development in Johto was handled better, people wouldn't look back on her as being mishandled or neglected.
  8. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    She did keep her temper. The "problem" with Misty in Johto was WRITING, not CHARACTER. There's a difference.

    Downplayed, but not completely gone.

    The ONLY thing I agree with is "unfinished" since she had so much more potential.
  9. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    why people
    feel Misty was an unfinished
    character
    Which is one of the main reasons people want her back. Her "closure" was crappy, we expected better out of them. Misty leaving might be much easier to swallow if she had better closure, but that's not the case.
  10. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi
    Which is one of the main reasons people want her back. Her "closure" was crappy, we expected better out of them. Misty leaving might be much easier to swallow if she had better closure, but that's not the case.
    So then its basically agreed, Misty was handled badly in Johto which accounts to the negative opinions surrounding the character from the fandom during that arc.

    But the writers didn't care enough to fix what went wrong so that leaves us where we are now.
  11. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    So basically Misty got 15 Johto episodes at the most where she has a role in, but the other 140 or so she's just there to stand on the sidelines making the usual dull observation comments that any character makes. She basically functioned as a second version of Brock either repeating his comments or making the usual generic talk to filler characters that any character makes. Misty had no purpose for the majority of Johto, and you could tell the writers were really bored with her character and probably already knew they were dropping her by the time we were halfway into it.
    Than you might want to rewatch Johto and refresh memory because aside from episodes which were completely focused on Misty and her pokemon or dreams(number was btw around 40 to 45), there are plenty of them which were indirectly centered around her development as character such as "Joy of water pokemon" revealing one of her childhood dreams and huge determination to prove nurse Joy wrong about her hatred toward water type. Or episode about Wooper and flashback to past when we learned how she used to play Tambourine as little girl. "Trouble's Brewing" where we saw Misty establishing close bond with Sakura helping her around same issues with older siblings she experienced herself becoming strong friends and rivals in a way eventually.

    Contributed to resolution of plots in various episodes befriending Hoot Hoot finding way out of forest allowing them to reach Newbark city,took initiative in breaking Arbok mecha and save Pikachu and Togepi, borrowed Ash her water pokemon to enter fire distinguish competition, helped various characters like Tammy and Politoad to reestablish their friendship and bond.
    Etc, etc.

    Brought comedy and flamboyant, spontaneous dynamic in group interactions on daily basis. Such as "Unbearable" where we had evil Teddiursa stealing pokemon food with Misty being gullible falling for its charm, "Sick Daze" where Ash and Misty had to do Brock chores when he was sick revealing how they are terrible cooks and rather disorganized showing how desperately they were dependent on Brock.

    Mini competitions like one about extinguishing fire where Ash participated using Misty pokemon with Psyduck ruining everything, "Bug catching contest" which granted wasn't any special but Misty interactions and panic fear from bugs hitting everything left and right making episode worthwhile. Etc, etc.
    .Curious wanting to try new things like entering special "ninja training" in "Ariados Amigos" for example deeply regretting it when she choose rather beauty treatment performed by bugs, playing role of detective trying to disclose Gligarman under mask, Butch and Cassidy in pokemon horoscope episode etc,m etc, etc.

    Played role in fighting Jessie, James and Meowth in plenty of episodes defeating their Arbok, Wezing, Victrebel or Wobuffet when they tried to steal food, items, pokemon on multiple occasions, helped Ash to fight dr. Namba and TR organization, helped Clair to retrieve lost dragon tooth, scold Ash whenever being too cocky or embarrassing himself helping him to come up with strategy in league, Whirl Cup against gym leaders like Pryce, criticizing him for using too strong pokemon against novice trainers like Casey when he burnt her team with Charizard .

    List goes on.

    So no i can't see so called "Misty just standing in background saying few robotic lines",. There were episodes like that, just like its case with any main character including ASh where whole 20 minutes pass without saying or doing much. But out of 157 episodes Johto had it was minority where Misty acted to be "tree doing nothing".
    Especially in Master Quest where almost very third episode had something to do with Misty pokemon, dreams, background or character. Not even counting episodes in between where she played subrole in Brock focused episodes like "Just Waiting on a Friend", contributing to fighting villains ad catching them like "Wish Upon a Star Shape" etc.

    Now i understand ad respect that you hate Johto, but there is no reason to twist facts when we all watched this saga knowing what happened there.

    Your seeing things which simply aren't true.
    I watched Johto 4 times and Misty was definitely much more active and still full of life character wise than you are willing to give character credit for.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Misty was heavily flanderized in Johto to the point where everyone commented on it back when Johto was originally airing. And who are you trying to fool?

    We've all watched the same Johto saga, there aren't many Misty focused episodes in the saga. If I'm being generous I'd say 20 at the most but that's pushing it.
    People in general had no problems with MIsty personality,but lack of screen time and development with character in Johto.

    Most people thought she was still enjoyable in Johto enjoying in episodes where she was more involved or all those mini roles she played but often falling in second plan not having chance to display personality traits and interact with other characters with added fact of story going nowhere were main reason for disappointment.
    When writers started increasing her focus in Master Quest doing something about her story(goal) being followed with focus in chronicles and cameos in AG they found character enjoyable again getting back on right track.

    Also its not only about Misty focused episodes, but all those subroles she played on daily basis contributing tom resolution of plots, bringing humor and lively interactions between companions in cast or taking initiative to move things forward.

    Misty got less character centric episodes in Kanto and Orange compared to Johto, but does that mean she was constantly in background? Of course not with her presence being always possible to feel through various pranks, sharing role she played with various characters or contribution to Ash growth as trainer whil getting some growth herself in such episodes.

    How much focus character receives can't be measured through completely character centric episodes, but through his overall impact on episodes and role he/she played in them.

    Otherwise going by that logic we could say May got any role or focus to play in about 30 episodes give or take while spending rest of 161 episodes of Hoenn standing in background pretending to be "tree".
    Same applies to Dawn, Brock, Iris or any other character going by way you measure someone activity and importance in this show.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    And I do know what flanderized means. Misty becoming a demure, motherly character without her temper, having no impact on most episodes and fading into the background to the point where the head writer said he couldn't justify Misty's existence in the show says a lot. If you consider this development, then all it did was make Misty more boring. Almost everyone considers Johto to be the weakest run for Misty compared to the first two seasons.
    No you obviously don't, nor was Misty so called "demure boring robot" your trying to make her to be.
    Also Mr. Shudo never said how "he couldn't justify Misty existence". He simply said how she had "weakest reason for existence regretting for not increasing her role. Something he clearly could if he cared more.

    Ditto there was no decline in Misty characterization during Johto period with lack of screen time=/=affecting someone personality.

    Whenever she was playing some role she was still full of competitive streak,spunk,sarcasm,passionate love for various hobbies and water types etc.Only change compared to Kanto days is that she became less violent with other traits being explored more which is called character development.
    In Johto we can still see Misty being full of competitive streak having that fire in her whenever she battled or entered tournaments of some sort(like when entering Whirl Cup,battling Ash,Andreas,Sakura etc),we can see her dedication and passionate love toward water types and their training which can be noticed in way she bonded with wild Marill in "For Crying Out Loud",having several attempts of trying to catch various pokemon like Corsola, Quagsire, Chinchau etc.
    She was still playful and sarcastic liking to tease and provoke Brock about girls and Ash about his training style and naivety along with several other various characters.She still had her quirks and fears from Gyarados and bugs,she was still romantic liking to give advices about it while falling herself for various cute pokemon etc.
    Misty in Johto in terms of character was very similar to Kanto and Orange.Difference is she became more patient and mature,with further development being followed with hosos and cameos in AG which portrayed her character as more responsible growing in nice blend of older and new personality.

    And by everyone i presume you mean yourself. You thought Misty was "derailed" in Johto, but that in no way can speak for everyone else.

    Its actually interesting:
    When May became less bubbly and insecure i remember you annotated it as "great development" portraying increase in confidence and growing to like pokemon as "step forward" without loosing her charm.
    On other hand when Misty became more mature and lvel headed growing to appreciate Ash and Brock friendship, got over complex of feeling less worthy becoming more independent while keeping her appeal being that spunky, rebellious, playful character full of passion, competitive fire and various quirks in mire mature, grown up light finding right balance between tomboyish and girlčy side.

    Your failing to recognize that acting like she "changed for worse". Which is fine and all with everyone being obliged to their opinion, but there is no reason to impose such view on others not being any more true than views from side which find Misty changed for better.

    Something majority judging by comments acknowledged judging by positive reception about character in later part of Johto, chronicles and AG cameos.

    And this is exactly why people feel Misty was an unfinished character, because her last arc treated her like a background character rather than giving her an actual role and it showed. I bet if Misty's development in Johto was handled better, people wouldn't look back on her as being mishandled or neglected.
    People feel that Misty was unfinished because her dreams and goal of becoming water master was left unresolved,. Unlike May and Dawn she never came to realization how to achieve her dreams nor was written of in way which would indicate further progress being made.
    Along with many things about her backstory, fears, pokemon team and various aspirations ending unexplored having lot of fresh potential to be done much more.

    Compared to May and Dawn for who most felt how they were dried out by end of their runs finding how most things gonjg for them were either tied up or brought close to an end ending content with open ended closures they got.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    But the writers didn't care enough to fix what went wrong so that leaves us where we are now.
    Complaining about character mishandle only holds relevance if mistakes are never fixed with character being restored to be captivating again. Something which hardly applies to Misty being in general accepted how she was at her best in second half of Johto(specifically Master Quest)and episodes, specials after departure such as hosos.
  12. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    So then its basically agreed, Misty was handled badly in Johto which accounts to the negative opinions surrounding the character from the fandom during that arc.

    But the writers didn't care enough to fix what went wrong so that leaves us where we are now.
    I still think she was handled well enough, just that her closure was crappy.
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  13. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    (A huge block of ownage)
    *tear* That was awesome! I wish I could like this more than once, but I'll settle.
  14. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Most of what Pokemonfan132 talks about can only be found in those select handful of episodes she was focused on. Misty/Brock were basically the words of observation or exposition for whatever was going on in the episode. This is the same damn thing all the other main characters do, except they also have their side plots on top of them.

    As for Misty it goes both ways. She obviously wasn't given the attention or screentime she needed or else everyone wouldn't be complaining about her handling and feeling unfinished. Even in terms of battling and pokemon her screentime was limited. Even Iris has already competed in 3 tournaments in only 100 episodes.

    The writers didn't think her water goal needed to be a major story so they just kept it to interest in fillers besides the Whirl Cup. That was the extent of her handling as a main character.

    It is moot to talk about now since she's been gone for 10 full years but if you guys want up continue to discuss this you know I never get bored.
  15. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Most of what Pokemonfan132 talks about can only be found in those select handful of episodes she was focused on. Misty/Brock were basically the words of observation or exposition for whatever was going on in the episode. This is the same damn thing all the other main characters do, except they also have their side plots on top of them.
    Handful? Not really, i could continue listing countless of episodes , but at end of the day its not like it matters because whatever i say wont change opinion from those who chosen to believe otherwise.

    Perhaps its best top leave to each individual to watch Johto saga for himself and determine if Misty was enjoyable character or not. Like saying goes you can't appease everyone taste.

    There were plenty of episodes where Misty had some really great moments whether she wasn't or was center of attention with her sarcasm, various quirks and occasional outbursts adding to comedy.

    I don't know about you guys, but Misty seemed pretty lively and active in Johto for someone who apparently "had no personality" over there.

    Problem wasn't in character really or Togepi, but in not receiving enough focus to properly shine. That's why in some Johto episodes you can barely see her interact aside from few lines, its because she was in background not playing any role nor having chance to properly show her qualities. This happens to every character if he is in some episodes sidelined too much(Brock and even Ash had same problem there with writing for Johto being poor due to writers inexperience back than not dividing focus adequately). Same applies to May, Dawn, Iris or just about anyone else.

    Does that mean those characters don't have personality? Not really because it counts what they did, how they behave in general and what kind of sides unique to them they have when determining if someone has character or not.

    Same applies to Misty showing numerous sides unique to her character in Johto being full of passion, big dreamer and romantic, full of competitive fire liking fishing or battling. Full of spunk not taking crap from others standing for herself and others, while having added mix of snarky and girly side.

    While also showing gradual growth herself like we saw with other characters like Ash, May, Dawn etc becoming less impulsive and more self critic being willing to admit mistakes, becoming independent as character and less reliant on Ash and Brock help. She matured, improved as trainer and became more confident in her abilities getting over complex of feeling inferior to Daisy and others with further development happening after departure.

    The writers didn't think her water goal needed to be a major story so they just kept it to interest in fillers besides the Whirl Cup. That was the extent of her handling as a main character.

    It is moot to talk about now since she's been gone for 10 full years but if you guys want up continue to discuss this you know I never get bored.
    Misty had plots and story. She had complex of inferiority imposed on her by sisters, had goal of becoming water master, strive to learn as much as she can about pokemon types and some day meet and catch legendary water type. Had fears which posed obstacle on her way like Gyarados and bugs(which wasn't treated as flaw but could had if writer wand to expand on it). Had flaws determining pokemon by outer side and looks rather than inside beauty still doing this. Had lack of confidence in herself wanting to prove others as competent trainer.

    Most of her growth came through individual episodes, while sometimes getting arc for herself like Whirl Cup. While majority of her focus and screen time was connected with Ash growth as trainer helping him to improve and better himself, playing role in various episodes by helping resolve various plots, helping other characters and how to solve their issues, baiting out group from danger such as finding way from sunk ship, saving Ash and Brock from jail, saving Brock from Ninetales curse, saving his Pikachu from TR mechas etc. etc-.

    Misty was in anime at time when formula was mainly centralized around Ash not having chance to have fully fledged out story like May or Dawn had, but that doesn't matter because she didn't needed huge arcs and lot of focus to become quickly liked and accepted managing to remain active having strong presence in majority of hr run even when she wasn't center of focus.

    By providing humor, flaunting dynamic into cast with her various pranks, outburts, or strong willingness taking initiative. By directly or indirectly influencing Ash, Brock or others story and getting some quality growth herself.

    And yes that applies to Johto as well.

    So no matter what you say ill always have soft spot for Misty character appreciating everything she brought to show, hr rich ad highly vivid personality, unique story and valuable growth being one of rare characters which remained equally interesting after maturity with mix of older charming sides to her mixed with new ones coming in light of independent and more mature character standing up for herself to Daisy and others, obtaining Gyarados etc making her better, more substantial character.
  16. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Agreed, but it obviously wasn't enough. By saying Misty felt unfinished or didn't get as much screentime, its basically an admittance that the writers didn't handle Misty very well back then. Its obvious the writers didn't put any real thought into Misty's water goal overall, and the Whirl Cup/Coastline Gym at the tail-end of Johto were likely done because they knew she was leaving and wanted to do SOMETHING with it.

    I think all Misty fans in the fandom know this, which is why they were unsatisfyed with her handling. Brock was handled 10 times worse, so it goes without saying, but this is the way the series played out I suppose.
  17. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Agreed, but it obviously wasn't enough. By saying Misty felt unfinished or didn't get as much screentime, its basically an admittance that the writers didn't handle Misty very well back then. Its obvious the writers didn't put any real thought into Misty's water goal overall, and the Whirl Cup/Coastline Gym at the tail-end of Johto were likely done because they knew she was leaving and wanted to do SOMETHING with it.

    I think all Misty fans in the fandom know this, which is why they were unsatisfyed with her handling. Brock was handled 10 times worse, so it goes without saying, but this is the way the series played out I suppose.
    Or other writers wanted to redeem for mistakes done by mr. Shudo.

    Yes Misty story was left unfinished and unexplored, but just because character wasn't fleshed out enough doesn't equate character getting derailed.

    Especially when changes in characterization proved to be positive for Misty personality and story in future being agreed by majority how enjoyable traits were for most part kept funding refreshing to see her in light of more mature, self reliant person.

    I know you wont agree but in Johto when taking Ash out from equation it becomes apparent how regardless of mishandle Misty still received more development, focus directed on her or in playing role in various other episodes which weren't about her along with entering much more battles than anyone else did.

    In general when looking back compared to Kanto Misty still had more focus on her career, entered more competitions, evolved more as character becoming more mature and levelheaded compared to Johto start and overall had more achievements.

    Only difference between two sagas was that Johto was much longer with Misty not receiving adequate mount of screen time and progress for such long saga as opposite to Kanto.

    That was in reality main trigger behind people disappointment feeling how character left before its prime. Something i personally agree with with Misty having enough potential to stay for Hoenn.
  18. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Agreed, but it obviously wasn't enough. By saying Misty felt unfinished or didn't get as much screentime, its basically an admittance that the writers didn't handle Misty very well back then.
    By that logic, if you don't think May's sendoff was good, you're admitting she wasn't handled very well (Max had a better sendoff lol).

    Most of what Pokemonfan132 talks about can only be found in those select handful of episodes she was focused on.
    What about episodes not focusing on contests as far as Dawn and May? Episodes not focusing on Cilan's goal? Episodes not focusing on Max (he was kinda just there)?

    Misty/Brock were basically the words of observation or exposition for whatever was going on in the episode.
    *coughMaxcough*

    This is the same damn thing all the other main characters do, except they also have their side plots on top of them.
    Max didn't.

    As for Misty it goes both ways. She obviously wasn't given the attention or screentime she needed or else everyone wouldn't be complaining about her handling and feeling unfinished. Even in terms of battling and pokemon her screentime was limited. Even Iris has already competed in 3 tournaments in only 100 episodes.
    Like stated before, more screentime isn't automatically good. *coughElmyracough*
    Also, Piplup fan reception.
  19. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi
    By that logic, if you don't think May's sendoff was good, you're admitting she wasn't handled very well (Max had a better sendoff lol).
    The last episode of AG was a 2-parter. If you look at the whole last two episodes of the final Contest with Sceptile Vs. Blaziken and Ash/May splitting the ribbon, showing that May learned all she could from Ash and it was time for her to go off on her own, it was a fitting conclusion. Especially since she also got another episode prior to that which established her role with Drew and Harley and that they were going to Johto.

    As for the actual sendoff, not every female lead is going to burst into tears because she can't travel with Ash anymore. Max was sad, and May reassured him, that's all they needed to do. Brock literally got a 10 second handshake when he left for good at the end of DP, so I wouldn't say she got the worst sendoff.

    What about episodes not focusing on contests as far as Dawn and May? Episodes not focusing on Cilan's goal? Episodes not focusing on Max (he was kinda just there)?
    They still get a lot of episodes outside of their main focused episodes. What about all those episodes where Dawn and Cilan tag battle with Ash? Or those numerous May/Max type fillers we got in Hoenn? Even the episodes that deal with their pokemon or rivals happened frequently.

    *coughMaxcough*

    Max didn't.
    Max's role was obviously meant to be small. He was there to give both Ash and May an extra character to play off of. There are as many Ash/Max scenes in the anime as there are Ash/May. The writers basically did all they could with a character who didn't have pokemon. Besides if he didn't exist and it was just May introduced that arc, the Hoenn group probably would have become as bland as the DP trio was. You can really tell Dawn needed some other character to have a dynamic with....she didn't have one.

    Like stated before, more screentime isn't automatically good. *coughElmyracough*
    Also, Piplup fan reception.
    Piplup was too overexposed definitely, especially when they made fillers more about it than Dawn herself.
  20. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    As for the actual sendoff, not every female lead is going to burst into tears because she can't travel with Ash anymore.
    Not expecting her to burst into tears, just a decent sendoff.

    Max was sad, and May reassured him, that's all they needed to do. Brock literally got a 10 second handshake when he left for good at the end of DP, so I wouldn't say she got the worst sendoff.
    Brock did get it the worst, but it wasn't the only bad one.
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