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Why The First 5 Seasons Are The Very Best, Like No One Ever Was! - Tentative Title

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by , 3rd March 2013 at 08:55 PM (6049 Views)
Welcome to ★stickerstaryoshi's☆ first ever blog entry! I've decided to do this after being inspired by certain blogs, but I digress. (Huh, this seemed so much easier before I actually started writing.)

Why The First Five Seasons of Pokemon Are The Very Best, Like No One Ever Was! (Part 1?) - Tentative Title

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Inspired by: pokemon fan 132

We all know how the anime has changed since 2002, and not necessarily for the better, either. I'll explain as I go along. I didn't have much time to finish, so I just settled for splitting this into at least 2 parts, hope no one minds.

~~~Characters~~~

Ash started off as a naive, optimistic kid. It was quite funny to watch him make a fool of himself. Then throughout OI, and Johto, he matured, while still keeping traces of his old personality. Many people admire Hoenn for having a "mature" Ash, but not only did Johto do it first, but it did it better. He wasn't learning lessons that he had already learned back in Kanto, unlike in Season 6+. To add to that, Johto still had him as a real character, instead of the "OMGILOVEPOKEMONLETSBATTLE" stereotyped shonen cliche he would later become.

Misty. Like I said above:

Misty was a temperamental girl who had a nice side
But there was more to her than that. For starters, she had to deal with living in the shadows of her sisters, making her more sympathetic than the average "tsundere". Like Ash, she developed throughout the course of OI and Johto, becoming more mature and less impatient, though still keeping traces of her personality. She kinda had to be patient, considering she was dealing with two babies (Ash and Togepi) :P . I don't think Togepi destroyed her character at all, in fact, Togepi was one of the best things to happen to her. Togepi forced the writers to explore other traces of her personality instead of always using her angry side. In addition, she was more motherly, and didn't conform to stereotypical gender standards. Yes, she was feminine, but not too girly. Now for (nearly) everyone's favorite black gym leader...no, not Lenora...

Brock! He is perhaps my favorite of the three, despite what would happen to him later on. It was funny and ironic to see a caretaker like Brock being completely serious, only to do a complete 180 when he saw a girl, usually resulting in him either getting dragged away by Misty, or REJECTED. Many will also say that Brock didn't change, but I disagree. Like Brock, the changes are just subtle. At first, he was completely serious (though compassionate), but by GCYL, he had learned to let himself feel sad in front of his friends (usually his crying was played for laughs), and he got a little less serious. Minor changes, but still development regardless.

With this kind of group dynamic, you'd think they'd stick around for quite a while, right? They really seemed inseparable and irreplaceable, but sadly, it didn't last. Misty leaving was perhaps the biggest mistake the anime has made, and probably always will be. Yes, even more than the voice change (at least that only affected the English dub). Since Misty left, character interactions have went downhill, and so have the characters themselves. None of the people who came in afterwards have been nearly as good as her (although I'm fine with Iris). And now, in BW, Brock is gone, this time for good. Without Misty to turn to, Brock got more and more flanderized, same with Ash, who got more and more boring.

~~~Plot Details, and how Pokemon Compares to Other Media~~~

Everyone who's kept up with the anime for at least a while knows what happens at the start of each generation, and what will happen in the next: Ash leaves his friends behind and replaces them with other people, he leaves all of his Pokemon behind except for Pikachu. This might have been okay had it only happened ONCE, but sadly, that's not the case. It just makes it that much harder to invest in the characters, knowing they're soon going to have to leave. Instead of just relying on the reset button as a cop out, they should work with what they have and make their characters better. Making a "fresh start" isn't ADDRESSING the problem, it's just covering it up (very thinly, I might add), and adding new problems, too. What good is character investment when they'll fall victim to the endless cycle? This is an indirect example of Misty leaving affecting the anime negatively.

I will never get why they had to replace Misty and Brock to begin with, it just doesn't work. By now, we're all so used to it that it hardly affects us anymore, but for me, it's still not right. To give you an idea of what I mean, imagine a Mickey Mouse series without Pluto, or even Goofy. It MIGHT work, but it just feels off. Even if they did get stale, why not redeem them? After all, they managed to make Dawn more entertaining (despite her unsatisfying cameo), why couldn't they do the same with Misty or Brock? Other shows keep the same characters and do just fine. Granted, they sometimes get derailed, but is the alternative (character replacement) really much better?

Another thing people like to point out is that we are not the target audience, and that they are only writing for kids. If that's the case, why are they bringing back old characters in BW? Why have cameos at all? Why did they show the Misty lure back in DP? Did they just choose randomly? (Personally, I think it was a desperate ratings trap, and it worked too :P ). Other kids shows have something for everyone, and so did Pokemon - for a time. My Little Pony (which I don't watch) is for little girls, but the creators are apparently actively working to please the adult male demographic (bronies). Heck, grown men are buying the toys, which people say they won't do for Pokemon. If you can get grown men to buy MLP toys, why not Pokemon, right?

For a more gender-neutral example, Animaniacs, Tiny Toons, Looney Tunes, Rocko's Modern Life, etc. were for kids, but still had adult references so that EVERYONE can enjoy. Even today, people still love these shows, because they just hold up. I don't think I've seen a single person complain about any of those shows. In the long run, aiming for as wide of an audience as possible is beneficial to ratings, reputation, and the like. If Pokemon didn't limit itself to a kid audience and actually address their problems, it could have the same critical reception as the ones mentioned above.

~~~Rivalries (aka Gary was here, Paul and Trip are LOSERS!!!)~~~

We all know Gary Oak, right? Yes? Then I'll just get into the rivalry. His rivalry with Ash was GREAT. Every single time he appeared, he taunted Ash and got an angered reaction out of him, and it was always funny. Then we have Paul, who is loved by most of the fandom. In my honest opinion? He's boring, and so is the rivalry. He's powerful, yes, but he really has no personality. His backstory was sad, but it was pretty hard to feel sorry for him. Perhaps if he wasn't a douche to everyone he met, and wasn't a cardboard cutout, this wouldn't be the case. It does seem original on the surface, but when you actually witness it, it's just an overglorified "COTD is being mean to his Pokemon" subplot drawn out for almost 200 episodes! The actual rivalry was nothing more than "Ash and Paul meet up, Ash tries to be nice to him, Paul acts like a douche, Ash gets all whiny", each and every time. At that point, Ash was also boring, so it made the rivalry even more unengaging. Now Trip...he's at least little more interesting than Paul. So what's my problem with his rivalry? Ash. He really doesn't react to what Trip says or does, just shrugs it off. The rivalry might be somewhat more engaging if Ash played his role in it correctly, but he pretty much just goes through the motions here. Also, the writers have yet again attempted to "freshen" things up by making him a rookie trainer, resulting in, you guessed it, a ton of complaints (this, coupled with Ash's regression, did not help matters at all).

So, yeah, Gary >>>>>> Trip >>>>>> Paul.

The winner is Gary Oak!!!

~~~Emotion~~~

I'm sure this is no contest, OS has much more genuine emotion than the rest. For example, Pikachu's Goodbye had Ash thinking of leaving Pikachu, thinking that it would be better for him to stay in the forest with all the other Pikachu than continue on with him. Now, we all knew that Pikachu wouldn't actually leave, but seeing Ash get all choked up when about to abandon his first Pokemon, and Pikachu wanting to stay with him - it's enough to make anyone feel for him. In Snow Way Out, we had Ash about to freeze to death, and trying to get Pikachu into his ball so he wouldn't share the same fate, but he refuses to stay in, despite the weather condition. Then, soon enough, his Pokemon all come out to warm him up. That alone showed how strong his bond with Pikachu - and his other Pokemon - is. This hasn't really been explored in newer series (the Ash + Pikachu bond in particular is now nothing more than "just take out word for it okay?").

Ash and co. were not the only one who could provide emotion - Team Rocket could, too! In Go West Young Meowth, we saw how Meowth learned to talk in order to impress Meowsie, a female Meowth, but it only led to her looking down on him as a Persian swept him off his feet, leading him to hate the Persian species. Who wouldn't feel sorry for him after that? Jessie and James have pretty sad backstories, too. Later on in Chronicles/AG/DP, the new backstory additions caused timeline errors/plotholes, but back then, there was no problem.

~~~Leagues~~~

You know something else that was better back then? The leagues. The Indigo League was a tournament (I like the anime's approach on the "after-badge quest"), but there was more to it than just the battles. This league was more of a culmination of Ash's journey, featuring his friends, as well as league-only rivals. Many didn't like how he lost, and while it was frustrating, it made sense from an in-universe perspective. It wasn't as bad as a lot of what would come after...

Next, the Orange League. Instead of just a battle tournament, the viewers found Ash doing various sports (racing, mountain climbing, etc.), with some battles inbetween. After he got the 4 OI badges, he then fought Drake (and won!). THIS was not only a nice change of pace, but he actually won a league! Not a main region league, but still.

The Silver Conference was great as well, it finally gave the Ash vs Gary rivalry sone closure, and it showed how far Ash had come. I considered this a return to form after the OI format (not that I had anything against it). He lost to Harrison's Blaziken with Charizard (who listened, at least), but at least it was a fair fight.

Hoenn League: It wasn't that bad, but not that good either. All of the other competitiors were just random people (I even count Morrison and Tyson because they appeared too late), didn't help that Ash had no rival. It got boring seeing just the Hoenn Pokemon, and the way Ash lost was pretty unsatisfying. Nothing really stood out to me besides the Meowth in boots.

Sinnoh League: Weak. It started off pretty lame, with Ash's battle with Nando (I honestly forgot about this guy) being skimmed through by Team Rocket (did they REALLY need to be in this episode?). It got better later on, although I thought the AvP 3-parter was too drawn out. Then all of a sudden, Tobias randomly appeared. No background, no personality, nothing, he was just a guy with 2 (not one, but TWO!!) legendaries, created only to beat Ash. As bad as that sounds, it's still better than...

Unova League: We've all seen it, we all hated it. This does not need explaining.

So that's it for now.

Oh, and before ANYONE pulls out the nostalgia card, note that I still like Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, etc. - things from my CHILDHOOD. In fact, Super Mario Galaxy is among my favorite games. If I was really "nostalgic", wouldn't I hate this game?

Withdraw all nostalgia cards please.

~stickerstaryoshi

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Updated 18th February 2014 at 11:56 AM by speedingbulletbill

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  1. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi
    Brock probably would have gotten a bit aged, but not as stale as he was then, since he was made to play off Misty, as said before. Without Max, Ash would probably interact more with May, and Brock would interact more with Ash. You said you liked the 4 group dynamic - so there's no reason they can't pull it off with Misty in place of Max (who didn't add much to the show or go anywhere).
    I wouldn't have minded a group of Ash, Misty, May and Brock, something like that might have been interesting. But Misty likely would have been dropped eventually anyway at some point. People used to think Brock would stay forever simply because he stayed for so long, but once BW began it was finally time to kill him off. Misty probably would have been dropped when DP began as the Kanto remakes would have been over by then if she had stayed for Hoenn.

    Togepi would evolve, getting rid of one of the "problems" people had with her: "Loss of personality".
    Judging by how they handled Brock's Hoenn and Sinnoh teams, and even Iris and Cilan for that matter, the writers seemingly don't want Ash's travel companions with more than 3-4 pokemon in the current arcs. The coordinators were the exception.

    Most likely Togepi would have been the one pokemon she kept, (if they had Ash/Brock drop their old pokemon, she would have done the same), she'd capture maybe two water Hoenn pokemon...and that would probably be it. Perhaps Mudkip would have gone to her instead of Brock if it happened.

    I don't know, I can see Misty doing contests, if only once, but she'd have to have her own motive.
    The writers flat out said that Misty wasn't good for Contests. She definitely wouldn't have done them long term, although I could see her trying it for a single episode like how Ash and Brock were in a Contest. May (and later Dawn) would have still been introduced and would have still gotten all the screentime.

    Misty would essentially have Max's role...basically commenting with Brock about whatever Ash and May were doing.

    It isn't about the original trio - we all know that - it's about the journey. It still centers around them, though. On the same token, Spongebob isn't about Patrick, Sandy, Mr. Krabs (even though many episodes take place in the Krusty Krab), and Squidward. Mickey Mouse cartoons aren't about Pluto, but he stayed. I suppose he's not technically a "character", but my point still remains. Tiny Toons isn't about the group of Buster and Babs (you can add in Hamton and Plucky I guess). None got replaced, they gave each character at least a good amount of screentime, both side characters and main characters (Elmyra could have gotten a bit less, but oh well).
    Those shows don't go on for 750+ episodes with the same formula.

    At the time of, say, Johto, the separation of Ash/Misty/Brock was unthinkable, especially after they were just reunited after the Orange Islands.
    I wouldn't say that. We saw Brock dropped for Tracey and I remember in the very earliest days of the fandom people speculating Misty being replaced too at some point. Of course back then people didn't think it would be permanent, but after AG started and it became obvious what May's role was going to be, and Misty's specials/cameos showed her adjusting to her life as a Gym leader, it became obvious she wasn't returning.

    What we didn't know at the time was that the writers were going to bring in a new girl every gen. Dawn's intro was a complete surprise for the fandom, as the concept of going from May to another coordinator was pretty strange at the time. However once Dawn came the cycle was established, which is why everyone knew she would leave when DP ended.

    Weren't TR his creations? You'd kind of expect that from him. (Side note: In retrospect, he should have dropped TR instead so his pet characters wouldn't get disgraced.)
    Shudo did create the anime personalities of Ash/Misty/Brock though. He didn't create their game characters, but all their anime personalities are different than the games, so he was the father of the whole original cast.

    All fads die, no matter how good something is. However, the fad might have lasted at least a bit longer had there not been so much filler in Johto and the GS Ball plot not dropped.
    The fad died pretty much around the time the 3rd movie came out. You could look at the box office sales for Movie 3 in the U.S., it did poorly compared to Movies 1-2 that WB stopped distributing the movies. 4kids had to partner with Miramax to get Movies 4-5 in theaters and those did so poorly that they just stopped bothering. If kids at the time weren't even asking their parents to take them to see a Pokemon movie, you know the fad was dead...especially since Movies 1 and 2 did extremely well in the box office.

    Of course none of this matters now anymore...because all new younger kids are now growing up with the newer arcs. I notice a lot of people coming online now saying that Hoenn was the first saga they watched and grew up with...which pretty much proves my point. Now that a new generation of younger kids is growing older, they're going to have nostalgia for whoever they grew up watching. 5 years from now you'll see all the little kids who liked Dawn/Piplup coming online too.
    Ranger Jack Walker likes this.
  2. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    How were they addressed? Most people didn't like the Johto saga back when it was airing and it wouldn't be still addressed as one of the shows weakest arcs. Same goes for the way Misty and the original trio were handled in that arc.

    Why would so many different people in the fandom all come to the same conclusions then? It's been like this for the last 10 years since I first came to the online fandom back in 2003.
    There is lot of bold claims from your part without backing things up. Main issue pepple had with Johto was lack of direction to move things forward. Almost no one had issues with Misty and original trio being viewed as one of most vibrant and endearing characters this show had.

    Otherwise how to explain such huige backlash adter Misty left cast, demand for her return which isn't waning even after whole decade with biggest hype in fandom always happening when Misty or Brock are announced to return or appear. Take a good look around yourself, i have been present online since 2003 lurking through sites and general consensus in general was how Misty leaving was one of biggest mistakes writers did in this show.

    Im aware how you will try to pull of same card with me about people who disliked Misty being of opinion how she "derailed". But vocal small minority of fans doesn't represent whole fandom which is counted in millions.

    Especially when most of Misty development and notable moments happening in second half of Johto(more specifically Master Quest)and in chronicles.Perhaps there wasn't enough growth, but as far as characterization goes to most people out there Misty remained enjoyable after maturing reacting positively to character afterwards in hosos and AG cameos.

    Someone asessment doesn't make something true, something i already addressed in one of my blogs about double standards some fans tend to use bering incapable to tell the difference between someone downfall or growth.

    In fact the whole reason why everyone knew, even back when Hoenn started for the first time, that the writers weren't going to bring Misty back or reunite the original trio was for this reason. If Brock hadn't lingered on people wouldn't even consider him to still be relevant in the same way.
    They really didn't. During whole Hoenn people thought and speculated how Misty might return to main cast at some point. Especially in BF when she greeted Ashgat Pallet with fans speculating she might join cast for filler arc. Or when May left with there being some heated debates going on with people being of viuw how reason why May was dropped was because writers thought she failed to meet viewers expectations, deciding to go back to already proven formula original trio.

    Especially given amount of complaints and high demand for Misty return to cast.

    Im sure people can still dig up older archives abnout this on bulbagarden, serebii or pokecommunity(three biggest poke sites). You often change your opinion i noticed. Few years ago i recall you were annoyed that people thought how May leaving means writers gearing up toward first group reunion.

    The show changed after Johto mainly because of the fandom. Shudo and the writing staff know how the arc was received upon its original airing which is why the series was revamped and continued in that direction. Even BW which has a more similar set-up to the OS is still handled very differently especially in terms of Iris and Cilan.
    Except it wasn't. Anyone who thinks how writers lurk around forums reading complaints of older fans which aren't target aidience and their main objective is fooling himself.

    It was decline in ratings which served as indication to writers how something isn't right deciding to change some things up. Main decision came from ex head writer mr. Shudo deciding to replace one of main characters. Ash and Brock were hold as too vital to anime with decision coming down to either Misty or TR who got spared in end due to Shudo preferring them more over others.

    [QUOTE=The Fighting Misty;bt275849]The fandom now doesn't matter because the kids watching the show today weren't even born when Johto was airing. I'm talking about the older fandom like myself who were already around 10-13 years old when Johto was airing in 2001-2002.[/QUOTWE]

    And majority of that same older fandom reacted negatively and skeptic on original trio split.

    Might also explain why Misty's cameo was so short lived at only 2 episodes. Whereas May got almost 5 episodes and Dawn got 8, we only did see 2 eps for Misty in Hoenn until Ash returned to Pallet. It's almost as of they made her return as brief as possible and removed her as quickly as she came back. She could have lingered on for a few fillers in Hoenn afterward but no they got rid of her again immediately in just 2 eps. And then after that her next appearance officially demoted her to Tracey 2.0 where she basically just had a Pallet visit.
    Are you serious? Writers don't view Misty as someone responsible for fad dying out in mid Johto holding grudge against her.
    Misty appeared for same number of eopisodes like Mays did. Only difference was that her comeback was split in 2 parts. Likewise she was central character in chronicles receiving 4 episodes and had numerous references and mini appearances in AG and DP. Such as being showed watching Ash entering Hoenn league on TV, appearing in BF opening, on queen heart cards along with Dehlia, through lure and opening in DP along with there being done throwbacks to her character and cerulean multiple times in Hoenn.

    If anything she got more recognition and references to her than May or Dawn did after departures.
    Your seeing things which simply aren't true, there are no conspiracy theories here nor are writers ashamed of one of their creations wanting to be forgotten.

    Funny how back in 2005 we didn't know those would be Misty's final appearances in the anime for the next 7 years not counting flashbacks, back then if we knew that was the end of her, her final appearance was literally wasted in a filler episode with Max and Clefairy. Aside from the dreadful Mastermind special but that's a different issue entirely.
    First we don't know if that was Misty's final appearance, especially given ounslaught of references to past and return of older characters in BW2 with attempt of increasing deteriorated ratings. Second "Real Cleffa Hanger" wasn't filler because it contained appearance of important ex main companion Misty.

    Additionally in order to keep anime fresh and interesting you don't need to replace characters which was strickerstarjoshi point. One Piece, Naruto, Inazuma Eleven etc are few out of many examples where writers rather than constant cycling invest more in established characters exploring on their personalities and interactions changing it to keep things fresh, have them go through deeper growth and introduce meaningful obstacles and things from past which influence their story in longer run. Anime which manage to keep older characters relevant doing mix of both older and new as result become appealing not only to new kids, but older ones as well gathering large group of followers.

    Even if character become stale he can be fixed and restore appeal he used to have by reworking story taking him in new innovative directions.
    If writers were more skilled and had more courage Misty and Brock would never hjad to leave starting trend of continuous replace of characters leading to drop of continuity, intermittent development and no real on going plot with main protagonist and story constantly being reset.

    Try looking at bigger picture in here and what Misty removal indirectly caused in longer run contributing to perferctly fine anime turning into mess we have now.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    You know good and well that judging by how they handled Brock in Hoenn, Misty wouldn't have been any different. She'd likely drop all her pokemon behind except Togepi anyway to go along with the fresh start, and maybe capture two new pokemon at the most.

    And on top of that, she would then be ignored since May and the Contests would have been brought in anyway, which would lead to her joining Brock on the sidelines. I suppose if this happened Max wouldn't have joined since it'd already be a group of 4, but even then Misty would have been the same background material Brock became.
    I really don't see how Brock in any way shows how would Misty be treated if they stayed for Hoenn?
    If she received more focus, battled more and had incomparably more development when she was along with Brock in same cast, there is no reason why that would suddenly change being demoted to focus Brock received. Even in original series before new characters were added Brock still got shortest end of stick. Just compare his focus in Kanto and Johto with Misty's, you will be very negatively surprised how little he got even there.

    Actually in Hoenn despite two new characters joining in Brock got more focus than he had in OS. In comparison his most used pokemon in OS Zubat(later Crobat)was used in 27 episodes, while his most active pokemon in Hoenn Mudkip was used in 54 episodes. In OS Brock entered one event(breeding contest with Suzy) and had 0 battles against other trainers, while in Hoenn he entered cheer leading tournament, contest, pokemon orientering etc.

    We are talking about Brock in here and he still got better treatment in Hoenn despite new characters coming in than he had in Johto. His real shaft happened in Sinnoh.

    Misty or whoever else continued to next generation would never get treatment Brock received because their roles and characters aren't constructed to perform role Brock and other group caretakers have/had.
    Actually Misty would likely get more focus in Hoenn than she did in Johto because ex head writer in his blogs stated how in case they kept her only way to justify further stay would be in increase of role. Take for example TR. In AG and DP writers focused more on their past, they took step forward in handling them by Jessie becoming coordinator trying to find herself and what she wants to do in life.Her role was increased and upgraded from basic comic relief who just tries to catch Pikachu, especially in DP.

    As for AG cast. If Misty was there:
    There might have been some tension between Misty and Team Magma in AG, as the organization wants to get rid of all of the water on the earth and all of the water pokemon would die.
    2): Misty might have fawned over both Juan and Wallace.
    3): Misty might have caught some more water-type pokemon, like Gorebyss, Huntail, and Relicanth.
    4): May might have done less in the series, and Max would not have been a factor.

    Along with expanding on her water goal and story established through Whirl Cup. Such as creating chain of events using water to full potential serving as further steps forward(water tournamnts similar to Whirl Cup, races, underwater battles etc), introducing to her rival which strives for same thing like Iris received, add new dimensions to poke team by catching various dual water types creating diversity in her team etc. Heck we could see her learning how to utilize Psyduck properly, Surskit which is half bug would make things hilarious serving as test to determine if she could overcome her panic bugphobia since its water pokemon etc.

    Not to mention having her and May in Hoenn would have set foundation for whole new dynamic between characters being interesting to see how would insecure and bubbly May bounce off with hotheaded, spirited and vivid Misty bringing lot of funny moments, clash and drama. More than Brock produced there.

    You can't use Brock as indication how will others with different roles be treated. Otherwise why Iris and Cilan are being treated drastically different than Brock was in DP?

    And I don't like the way you keep trying to imply the Pokemon anime was about the original trio. Misty and Brock were never as important as Ash/Pikachu were, heck even Team Rocket is probably more important than them. The games change their protagonists every game, there was no reason to think Misty and Brock were going to be there forever...and in Brock's case he overstayed his welcome by at least one full generation even if he was still OK for AG.
    Originally original trio was indeed intended to be kleot forever. Why else do you think Brock was returned for Johto? No one, but absolutely no one believed how Misty and Brock will ever leave cast at that time.

    Right after Ash, Mistyv and Brock are probably most iconic and recognized charactwers out there with most people associating pokemon with those three much more than they are doing with AG, DP or BW casts. Original trio is always viewed in high regard to many fans out there because they were groundwork on which anime was built and developed. Since they were there when everything started padding out way for new characters to come in with popular opinion being how they had closest bond and most engaging dynamics out of all cast so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Jack Walker
    Didn't the head writer Takeshi Shudo flat out say that Team Rocket were more important than Misty? I have to agree with Scott. The original series was not about the original trio. I was about Ash and sometimes Pikachu. Everyone else was pretty damn unimportant in the long run. Its mostly due to nostalgia that most fans hype up Misty as this super important character whose departure led to the 'downfall' of pokemon when in fact, it had barely any effect. Pokemon had stopped being a fad long before Misty left and her depature had hardly any effect on the show's popularity.
    Looking back general reception on Misty was incredibly positive among fans. Not only by younger ones but teenagers and adults as well. She unfortunately didnt had luxury to have fully fleshed out storyline like May or Dawn had with writers creating pathway through which their development will go, with indicators of character making steps forward being created through benchmarks in which their skill could be measured.

    But as we can see she didnt need lot of screen time to become quickly liked. She was popular because of her multi faced personality, touching backstory, funny pokemon(like Psyduck) and unique and mysterious goals like water master with people finding her as outstanding compared to others because of using one type.

    Judging by critical reception and what other people wrote , as well pokemon books like "Japanification of children popular culture" or "Rise and fall of Pokemon" Misty is usually viewed as character which managed to bring identity to series with her presence. She and Brock were very important characters back in day not only because thery served as backbone on which Ash relied helping him greatly in learning basics and growing in better trainer, but they also promoted idea of friendship and adventure as friends which explore world bringing fun chemistry making anime popular in first place. along with enriching series with their antics contributing to resolution of various plots while giving to fans insight in their pasts and growth having things on which people could relate.

    Whether you dislike Misty and brock Heavily or not, they were indeed vital assests to pokemon anime back in day.
    Skeptic opinions from one writer who stopped being relevant long ago doesnpt translate to views from other members of writing staff with who mr. Shudo got caught at times in clash over disagreements, nor it denude value this characters brought to anime.

    Even though so many people claim that they stopped watching after Misty left, there sure seem to know a whole lot about minor details from later seasons for someone who doesn't watch the show anymore.
    Many of them stopped watching regularly only tuning in for specific episodes which they usually follow online, instead on TV. Or just read newest info on bulbapedia and see screenshopts on serebii to be familiar with newst stuff and if there are signs of their favorite coming back any time soon. I can assure you how there is notable grouop of fans which no longer followes anime until Misty returns. Im sure you encuntered some of them by now.

    P.S. Additionally in order to keep anime fresh and interesting you don't need to replace characters which was strickerstarjoshi point. One Piece, Naruto, Inazuma Eleven etc are few out of many examples where writers rather than constant cycling invest more in established characters exploring on their personalities and interactions changing it to keep things fresh, have them go through deeper growth and introduce meaningful obstacles and things from past which influence their story in longer run. Anime which manage to keep older characters relevant doing mix of both older and new as result become appealing not only to new kids, but older ones as well gathering large group of followers.

    Even if character become stale he can be fixed and restore appeal he used to have by reworking story taking him in new innovative directions.
    If writers were more skilled and had more courage Misty and Brock would never hjad to leave starting trend of continuous replace of characters leading to drop of continuity, intermittent development and no real on going plot with main protagonist and story constantly being reset.

    People should try looking at bigger picture in here and what Misty removal indirectly caused in longer run contributing to perfectly fine anime turning into mess we have now.
    Updated 5th March 2013 at 05:39 AM by pokemon fan 132
  3. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Judging by how they handled Brock's Hoenn and Sinnoh teams, and even Iris and Cilan for that matter, the writers seemingly don't want Ash's travel companions with more than 3-4 pokemon in the current arcs. The coordinators were the exception.
    Never say never (ugh, I did NOT just quote Justin Bieber).

    Most likely Togepi would have been the one pokemon she kept, (if they had Ash/Brock drop their old pokemon, she would have done the same), she'd capture maybe two water Hoenn pokemon...and that would probably be it. Perhaps Mudkip would have gone to her instead of Brock if it happened.
    I don't think she would have been shafted that much. Writing got better in certain aspects, even if not really the ones that matter. And again, Hoenn is water filled. If fanfic writers can at least make a decent plot with Misty in Hoenn/Sinnoh/Unova, why not them? They're the "professionals", after all (I think they're hack writers, but hey). It would have been interesting to see how she reacts to Surskit (like pokemon fan 132 said), Team Aqua, etc.

    The writers flat out said that Misty wasn't good for Contests. She definitely wouldn't have done them long term, although I could see her trying it for a single episode like how Ash and Brock were in a Contest. May (and later Dawn) would have still been introduced and would have still gotten all the screentime.
    That doesn't mean they can't give it a shot.

    Those shows don't go on for 750+ episodes with the same formula.
    Not 750+ episodes, but regardless, the basic premise still remains the same, they're just not as repetitive. At the time Johto ended, it was only 251+ episodes anyway.

    I wouldn't say that. We saw Brock dropped for Tracey and I remember in the very earliest days of the fandom people speculating Misty being replaced too at some point. Of course back then people didn't think it would be permanent, but after AG started and it became obvious what May's role was going to be, and Misty's specials/cameos showed her adjusting to her life as a Gym leader, it became obvious she wasn't returning.
    I'll have to look into this sometime..

    Shudo did create the anime personalities of Ash/Misty/Brock though. He didn't create their game characters, but all their anime personalities are different than the games, so he was the father of the whole original cast.
    True, but TR were still his treasured characters, he loved them more than any other.

    The fad died pretty much around the time the 3rd movie came out. You could look at the box office sales for Movie 3 in the U.S., it did poorly compared to Movies 1-2 that WB stopped distributing the movies. 4kids had to partner with Miramax to get Movies 4-5 in theaters and those did so poorly that they just stopped bothering. If kids at the time weren't even asking their parents to take them to see a Pokemon movie, you know the fad was dead...especially since Movies 1 and 2 did extremely well in the box office.
    This is not a rebuttal to my point. XP

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    Otherwise how to explain such huige backlash adter Misty left cast, demand for her return which isn't waning even after whole decade with biggest hype in fandom always happening when Misty or Brock are announced to return or appear. Take a good look around yourself, i have been present online since 2003 lurking through sites and general consensus in general was how Misty leaving was one of biggest mistakes writers did in this show.
    It still IS the biggest mistake they've made. The voice change at least only affected the English dub, and doesn't have much to do with the show itself.

    Especially given amount of complaints and high demand for Misty return to cast.
    And after 10 years, people are still pining for her return. Misty's a timeless character indeed.

    Except it wasn't. Anyone who thinks how writers lurk around forums reading complaints of older fans which aren't target aidience and their main objective is fooling himself.
    Sadly, this is true. If older fans could be taken into account at least a little, the anime wouldn't be in this state. Tiny Toons, Spongebob, Rocko's, etc. are for kids, but they still toss some bones to older fans, offering something for everyone. Those shows were pretty much unanimously loved (well, SB was before the downfall after the movie).

    It was decline in ratings which served as indication to writers how something isn't right deciding to change some things up. Main decision came from ex head writer mr. Shudo deciding to replace one of main characters. Ash and Brock were hold as too vital to anime with decision coming down to either Misty or TR who got spared in end due to Shudo preferring them more over others.
    People say ratings decline gradually, and I don't doubt that, but then why did Shudo feel the need to do so if that was 100% the case?

    Additionally in order to keep anime fresh and interesting you don't need to replace characters which was strickerstarjoshi point.
    Exactly my point, thanks :)

    One Piece, Naruto, Inazuma Eleven etc are few out of many examples where writers rather than constant cycling invest more in established characters exploring on their personalities and interactions changing it to keep things fresh, have them go through deeper growth and introduce meaningful obstacles and things from past which influence their story in longer run. Anime which manage to keep older characters relevant doing mix of both older and new as result become appealing not only to new kids, but older ones as well gathering large group of followers.
    Those are better examples. Idk much about Inazuma Eleven, but OP and Naruto are continuous anime that follow the same formula (granted, Sasuke left Team 7, but he's still a main character).

    Even if character become stale he can be fixed and restore appeal he used to have by reworking story taking him in new innovative directions.
    Agreed once again. Other shows can do it, why not Pokemon? Speaking of staleness May started to lose her personality in BF, and people STILL treat her like she's Arceus gift on earth! (Sorry, that honor goes to Brock :P )

    If writers were more skilled and had more courage Misty and Brock would never hjad to leave starting trend of continuous replace of characters leading to drop of continuity, intermittent development and no real on going plot with main protagonist and story constantly being reset.
    I couldn't agree more. People always credit the newer sagas for "taking risks", but how is the same thing over and over again "risky"? For that matter, Misty leaving wasn't fresh (I could consider it risky because of the backlash it caused, but the target audience are little kids who don't care about writing or characters, but the Pokemon). Unexpected? Yes. Fresh? No, it wasn't the first time someone had been replaced.

    Try looking at bigger picture in here and what Misty removal indirectly caused in longer run contributing to perferctly fine anime turning into mess we have now.
    It's stuck in a repetitive loop, amongst other things.

    I really don't see how Brock in any way shows how would Misty be treated if they stayed for Hoenn?
    If she received more focus, battled more and had incomparably more development when she was along with Brock in same cast, there is no reason why that would suddenly change being demoted to focus Brock received. Even in original series before new characters were added Brock still got shortest end of stick. Just compare his focus in Kanto and Johto with Misty's, you will be very negatively surprised how little he got even there.

    Actually in Hoenn despite two new characters joining in Brock got more focus than he had in OS. In comparison his most used pokemon in OS Zubat(later Crobat)was used in 27 episodes, while his most active pokemon in Hoenn Mudkip was used in 54 episodes. In OS Brock entered one event(breeding contest with Suzy) and had 0 battles against other trainers, while in Hoenn he entered cheer leading tournament, contest, pokemon orientering etc.
    I still think Brock was much better in OS, but I see your point.

    Misty or whoever else continued to next generation would never get treatment Brock received because their roles and characters aren't constructed to perform role Brock and other group caretakers have/had.
    Unlike Brock, she doesn't have a passive goal, so you're right.

    As for AG cast. If Misty was there:
    There might have been some tension between Misty and Team Magma in AG, as the organization wants to get rid of all of the water on the earth and all of the water pokemon would die.
    2): Misty might have fawned over both Juan (me!) and Wallace.
    3): Misty might have caught some more water-type pokemon, like Gorebyss, Huntail, and Relicanth.
    4): May might have done less in the series, and Max would not have been a factor.
    And that's only some of her potential.

    Surskit which is half bug would make things hilarious serving as test to determine if she could overcome her panic bugphobia since its water pokemon etc.
    And when Surskit evolves...imagine her reaction when she finds out it lost its water type properties! XD

    Originally original trio was indeed intended to be kleot forever. Why else do you think Brock was returned for Johto? No one, but absolutely no one believed how Misty and Brock will ever leave cast at that time.
    If you had told me Misty were leaving back when Johto Journeys started, I would have laughed right in your face ;)

    Looking back general reception on Misty was incredibly positive among fans. Not only by younger ones but teenagers and adults as well. She unfortunately didnt had luxury to have fully fleshed out storyline like May or Dawn had with writers creating pathway through which their development will go, with indicators of character making steps forward being created through benchmarks in which their skill could be measured.
    She could have a more fleshed out storyline if the writers pleased, right?

    But as we can see she didnt need lot of screen time to become quickly liked. She was popular because of her multi faced personality, touching backstory, funny pokemon(like Psyduck) and unique and mysterious goals like water master with people finding her as outstanding compared to others because of using one type.
    That's more than can be said for other girls (even most other PEOPLE). She wasn't a stereotype, she was unique, which helped.

    Judging by critical reception and what other people wrote , as well pokemon books like "Japanification of children popular culture" or "Rise and fall of Pokemon"
    Never read those, unfortunately. :(

    Misty is usually viewed as character which managed to bring identity to series with her presence. She and Brock were very important characters back in day not only because thery served as backbone on which Ash relied helping him greatly in learning basics and growing in better trainer, but they also promoted idea of friendship and adventure as friends which explore world bringing fun chemistry making anime popular in first place. along with enriching series with their antics contributing to resolution of various plots while giving to fans insight in their pasts and growth having things on which people could relate.
    Well said. The anime was perfectly fine with just those three, like you said :D
    Updated 3rd May 2013 at 01:10 PM by speedingbulletbill
  4. Bluelatios's Avatar
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    Sorry if I sort of go off on a tangent here (I agree with y'all on all those points about Misty), but Pokemonfan, in response to you suggesting they don't see whats on internet forums, I would like to point out how terribly ignorant the TPC staff would be if they really didn't get out and observe the fandom to some degree. They would be extremely hard pressed to try and run one of the world's most successful franchises without sufficient knowledge of their fanbase. The odds are extremely likely they know at least in general how well each main character and season is received. And their knowledge is only increasing with the social media we have nowadays like Facebook and Twitter, which by the way are swamped with folks who've been with Pokemon since the beginning. (About 95%-ish of their FB fans have played the games since Gameboy according to one of their polls). So do they know at least in part whats wrong? I'm willing to bet yes. Do they make stupid choices anyway? (Last I checked, they were humans so...) yes. And I fully believe they will at some point learn from their mistakes if they aren't in the process already.
  5. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    Otherwise how to explain such huige backlash adter Misty left cast, demand for her return which isn't waning even after whole decade with biggest hype in fandom always happening when Misty or Brock are announced to return or appear. Take a good look around yourself, i have been present online since 2003 lurking through sites and general consensus in general was how Misty leaving was one of biggest mistakes writers did in this show.
    You're taking a small percentage of the people who watch Pokemon and are overblowing it. I find it funny that people keep talking about a backlash when in reality, most people didn't care. Even those who were originally upset about Misty leaving got over it as AG progressed. The only ones who still sat there going on about it were mostly obsessive fans, similar to those people who only like the original 151 pokemon. Or the shippers, but again, people who ship in pokemon is also much smaller than it seems, and even then most people do it for fun.

    They really didn't. During whole Hoenn people thought and speculated how Misty might return to main cast at some point. Especially in BF when she greeted Ashgat Pallet with fans speculating she might join cast for filler arc. Or when May left with there being some heated debates going on with people being of viuw how reason why May was dropped was because writers thought she failed to meet viewers expectations, deciding to go back to already proven formula original trio.
    Nobody seriously thought Misty was going to return during those points, they just speculated it was possible, not that it was likely. Besides we already knew from Movie 8, which came out in Japan AFTER Battle Frontier began that Misty wasn't in the movie, so we knew she wasn't sticking around. And I'm sure you remember when DP was starting all we saw was all those early DP advertisements about Dawn and Piplup, with no Misty mentions whatsoever. Nobody thought she was going to be part of the DP cast.

    It was decline in ratings which served as indication to writers how something isn't right deciding to change some things up. Main decision came from ex head writer mr. Shudo deciding to replace one of main characters. Ash and Brock were hold as too vital to anime with decision coming down to either Misty or TR who got spared in end due to Shudo preferring them more over others.
    Then here's a better question, how do you explain Misty staying gone for the entire series? If she only stayed gone for Hoenn you would have had a point. But no, she stays gone for Battle Frontier. Then she stays gone for all 4 years of DP. Then she stays gone for Best Wishes. And even in that timeframe her cameos/guest appearances dwindled down to nothing.

    Even to this day Misty has only ever returned in 4 full episodes outside of the specials, out of the 550+ episodes that have been produced after Johto ended. And this stopped by 2005.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Are you serious? Writers don't view Misty as someone responsible for fad dying out in mid Johto holding grudge against her.
    Misty appeared for same number of eopisodes like Mays did. Only difference was that her comeback was split in 2 parts. Likewise she was central character in chronicles receiving 4 episodes and had numerous references and mini appearances in AG and DP. Such as being showed watching Ash entering Hoenn league on TV, appearing in BF opening, on queen heart cards along with Dehlia, through lure and opening in DP along with there being done throwbacks to her character and cerulean multiple times in Hoenn.

    If anything she got more recognition and references to her than May or Dawn did after departures.
    Your seeing things which simply aren't true, there are no conspiracy theories here nor are writers ashamed of one of their creations wanting to be forgotten.
    She gets mentions simply because she's part of the shows history. We've seen Tracey tons of more times after Orange Islands, does that mean the writers want to bring Tracey back? No, he's just constantly shown and mentioned simply because he's always going to be there at Oaks.

    First we don't know if that was Misty's final appearance, especially given ounslaught of references to past and return of older characters in BW2 with attempt of increasing deteriorated ratings. Second "Real Cleffa Hanger" wasn't filler because it contained appearance of important ex main companion Misty.
    Back in 2005 we didn't think it would be Misty's final appearance, simply because back then we didn't know they would continue to bring in new girls every series. But then as 7 years and 3 series passed, and especially how the DP arc didn't give her a cameo at all, it now makes her last appearances in AG look rather telling.

    Is it possible Misty can appear again? Sure, its possible. But if Best Wishes ends and she doesn't appear, this will be the second full generation without Misty showing up. If that doesn't prove they're done, I don't know what will.

    As for the rest of your points, its all just speculative. We can't say how Misty would have been handled in Hoenn because there's no indication what they would do with her. As for the original trio, it was only ever used in two sagas, the second of which is Johto. Entire generations of kids have grown up watching the show long after Misty left, so its not even like everyone began watching with her in it anymore.

    Bottom line is these last 10 years wouldn't have seen Misty be completely phased out of the show if the writers wanted her to stay relevant. They had no trouble keeping Brock around for another 8 years, its especially telling how Misty didn't get the Brock treatment in the anime, regardless if most people feel Brock was handled badly in the later arcs.
    Ranger Jack Walker likes this.
  6. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    You're taking a small percentage of the people who watch Pokemon and are overblowing it. I find it funny that people keep talking about a backlash when in reality, most people didn't care.


    Maybe most didn't care, but it doesn't change the fact that there was an initial backlash. Even today, people still complain about this, this says a lot.

    Even those who were originally upset about Misty leaving got over it as AG progressed. The only ones who still sat there going on about it were mostly obsessive fans, similar to those people who only like the original 151 pokemon.
    What's wrong with those who only like the original 151 anyway? People have different tastes. I realize that some people shove it in everyone's faces, but it's unfair to generalize. Not everyone was obsessive, they just simply didn't like the decision to remove her, simple as that.

    Then here's a better question, how do you explain Misty staying gone for the entire series? If she only stayed gone for Hoenn you would have had a point. But no, she stays gone for Battle Frontier. Then she stays gone for all 4 years of DP. Then she stays gone for Best Wishes. And even in that timeframe her cameos/guest appearances dwindled down to nothing.
    Though not Misty herself, her lure appeared in Diamond & Pearl, and she's briefly appearing in a flashback soon.

    Back in 2005 we didn't think it would be Misty's final appearance, simply because back then we didn't know they would continue to bring in new girls every series. But then as 7 years and 3 series passed, and especially how the DP arc didn't give her a cameo at all, it now makes her last appearances in AG look rather telling.

    Is it possible Misty can appear again? Sure, its possible. But if Best Wishes ends and she doesn't appear, this will be the second full generation without Misty showing up. If that doesn't prove they're done, I don't know what will.
    See above.

    Her making an appearance in the future is wishful thinking, but you can't expect people not to hold on to a shred of hope.
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  7. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Minor references to Misty is not the same as Misty getting a real appearance. The only reason she gets those references is because she's part of the shows history. I mean how the hell are they going to show flashbacks to Charmander in Kanto without showing Misty too? It was obviously she was going to be shown in the scene where they first carry Charmander in the rain.

    And you missed the point. These last 10 years wouldn't have seen Misty stay off the main cast and become a minor character, nor would her cameos be so brief and short lived stopping before Battle Frontier started. Some people often say that it feels like the writers purposely turned the series against Misty in every way possible, and I can see that.

    Even water themed episodes have gone to other characters, and Dawn got a Togekiss. And now we have Iris who blatantly has almost the same role and similar personality as Misty...instead of using Misty herself. Even the Kanto and Johto game remakes did nothing to promote Misty in the anime, she didn't appear for a HGSS arc nor did she have any further appearance in Kanto BF.

    While all the other main characters leave the show too at points, it really feels like Misty is the only one the writers seem to be avoiding. Case in point, Misty's last real appearance was in 2006, which means every other main character has a more recent appearance than her. Tracey appeared in AG191, May in 2008, Brock in 2010, and Dawn in 2012. Misty is the only one who hasn't been seen in 7 years, and by that I mean a real appearance and not a flashback.
  8. Bluelatios's Avatar
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    Excuse me, but wasn't it you Gliscor'd that once suggested the "pattern" that each female character gets 1 appearance in the season following their departure? So the length of time since Misty last appeared is only because its been so long since AG aired, NOT because Misty is somehow "deliberately forgotten". Do you see what is happening? In your desperation to try and "win" every debate about Misty, your own logic is contradicting itself. Now lets talk about this whole "viewer importance" thing.

    Consider for a moment what I talked about earlier, that the creators would have to be extremely ignorant to not observe fan opinions from time to time. Now who, in whatever observations of their viewers do they make note of? Well the whole point of observing fans is to look for common trends, yes? So for starters, they'd look to those who have voiced a preference. They could start looking at their primary audience of kids, but here's the problem; Most kids would only be able to tell you what they liked/disliked about recent seasons. What if you wanted to go deeper and find information about say, how elements of the current seasons compare to past ones? You'd then turn an eye to the older crowd who has knowledge about such things.

    In the case of female characters, who are we to say they'll keep replacing them over and over? What if that system one day becomes insufficient, if it isn't already? Only time will tell, but one thing's for sure; In the older crowd, Misty fans have been consistently vocal for years. Thus eventually, if and when they decide to use an older girl in a series just to change the formula, Misty would be at the top tier in accordance to viewer demand.
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  9. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    I would think the opposite. Misty would likely be the absolute last choice for a character revival and Dawn's BW2 cameo proved that to me.

    I'm not that big a fan of Dawn so I'm not bias toward her one way or the other, but the writers billed Dawn as far more of a leading heroine than the other girls, so much so that she can exist without the contests. Piplup being popular as well adds to that.

    I wouldn't want Dawn as the lead for another arc, but given the writers they probably would chose her over the other 3 if they had to have one leading female used without bringing in a new character.
  10. Bluelatios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    I'm not that big a fan of Dawn so I'm not bias toward her one way or the other, but the writers billed Dawn as far more of a leading heroine than the other girls, so much so that she can exist without the contests. Piplup being popular as well adds to that.
    This I agree with. They have indeed proved that like a real person, a character doesn't need to strictly cling to a specific goal to simply be who they are, and I respect that.

    But is Dawn's extended stay really a signal that she is more popular (or at least that the writers like her more)? Or is it simply the evolution of better fanservice for past characters? I find the latter to be more likely. Sure, they might have their own personal preferences, but we don't have any definitive evidence of which staff members like whom. Without solid proof that the writers personal opinions directly affect the length and scope of a character's appearance, I'm afraid such claims are moot and void. So I stand by my position that
    a;past character returns will eventually deviate from just the most recent to leave.
    and b; that they can and should put fanservice first and " personally wanting to" second. In which case, Misty would be a top tier contender.
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
    Updated 7th March 2013 at 09:29 PM by Bluelatios
  11. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Dawn herself probably isn't more popular, its just the marketability of Piplup and the fact that she's more RECENT. Misty hasn't been a major part of the show since 2002, all the other girls are more recent.

    The way I see it, Misty's chance of returning was during the late Hoenn era before Battle Frontier started. When she didn't return then and the writers decided to bring May back for another arc, it was basically a sign Misty was done. Then when DP began and Dawn came, and there was no Misty appearance between the May and Dawn transition, that was the second nail.

    The third nail came when May got a big comeback in the DP series, and Misty didn't appear at all. Considering DP went on for a whopping 191 episodes, the mere fact that the writers didn't seem to think to give Misty even one or two episodes out of that 191 episode span is quite telling.

    The final nail is Best Wishes, Iris basically IS Misty, or as close to it, and she's a new character. Why did Iris even have to be a main character instead of using Misty herself, when Iris is such a blatantly similar character? Swap the dragon goal with the water goal, and some slight differences, and you'd have the same role.
  12. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    I could have sworn i posted reply in here. Never mind, here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    You're taking a small percentage of the people who watch Pokemon and are overblowing it. I find it funny that people keep talking about a backlash when in reality, most people didn't care. Even those who were originally upset about Misty leaving got over it as AG progressed. The only ones who still sat there going on about it were mostly obsessive fans, similar to those people who only like the original 151 pokemon. Or the shippers, but again, people who ship in pokemon is also much smaller than it seems, and even then most people do it for fun.
    Yet whenever i visited in past anything pokemon related in youtube, deviantart, pokecommunity and similar sites more often than not i always encounter claims how "Misty departure at end of Johto" was second most controversial thing in fandom after dub voicing switch and many people say how her leaving caused drop in ratings outside of Japan in USA and other countries.

    Some even go as far to say how her cameos and many references in AG were "desperate attempt to raise ratings up, helping people to adjust to new formula and recover them".

    Normally i wouldn't thrust anyone on word, but when you see so many fans out there who claim same thing "for me pokemon ended when original trio was disband", "i wont go back to anime until Misty returns" and similar things it makes you start to question some things. I saw thousands of them with similar mindset online even nowadays after 10 years .

    Not to mention when i read archives threads and posts on bulbagarden, serebii etc it seems Misty discussion always ended up as most heated one involving lot of arguing and complaining how her departure was mistake, how she should never left cast etc.

    Naturally today you don't see this things around here with fans growing to accept this and many older users left log time ago.

    But when May, Dawn, Brock etc left cast there was basically no complaining, there weren't created all those online petitions and videos asking for return(well even if there was it was in much smaller amount)and there was in general less controversy.

    Most people online did cared Cyber being skeptic over Misty departure. Back than in 2003/2004 there were real war, hell zones going around about Misty and her removal from show and while there was group of anti side and people which didn't cared, amount of complaints and shock over Misty removal overshadowed everyone else.

    Trying to alleviate Misty popularity and impact she left on anime wont change events which happened in past. Most older veterans from bulbagarden or serebii can tell you from first hand how fans reacted about particular character removal with fans not being prepared for this back than.

    Nobody seriously thought Misty was going to return during those points, they just speculated it was possible, not that it was likely. Besides we already knew from Movie 8, which came out in Japan AFTER Battle Frontier began that Misty wasn't in the movie, so we knew she wasn't sticking around. And I'm sure you remember when DP was starting all we saw was all those early DP advertisements about Dawn and Piplup, with no Misty mentions whatsoever. Nobody thought she was going to be part of the DP cast.
    Perhaps you didn't thought it would happen, but that doesn't project to other people opinions. There was lot of debating and guessing how Misty might return for Battle Frontier on serebii with several members like Corzola, Mightymist(not sure if i spelled it right) or Suikun which was on anti side of spectrum etc. On bulbagarden i recall highly heated debates over possible return of Misty and reunion of original trio with most fans being under impression how leaving of May and Max who used to be viewed as "new permanent characters" might indicate how writers decided to play safe and go back to first group which proven already to have required appeal and charisma to hook fans into anime. Especially given highly vocal demand for their reunion which was present for years.

    Then here's a better question, how do you explain Misty staying gone for the entire series? If she only stayed gone for Hoenn you would have had a point. But no, she stays gone for Battle Frontier. Then she stays gone for all 4 years of DP. Then she stays gone for Best Wishes. And even in that timeframe her cameos/guest appearances dwindled down to nothing.

    Even to this day Misty has only ever returned in 4 full episodes outside of the specials, out of the 550+ episodes that have been produced after Johto ended. And this stopped by 2005.
    Your always bringing up Misty long absence staying removed from main cast. But if writers viewed Misty as "mistake, failed product", than May would surely stay in main cast if we go under your presumption how she was apparently "fixed character"," writers way of apology for subpar ancestor and new permanent fixture in this show".

    Your giving too much credit To may or even Dawn value as characters, while trying to denude appeal and merits Misty had as character not being any inferior in comparison.

    You ask why Misty never returned to main cast getting only 4 episode cameos in 10 years? Yet you ignore fact how same applies to May, Max, soon enough Dawn as well Iris and Cilan when they inevitably leave.

    Its because after new characters were well received they opted to rather introduce new companions with each new generation to better go in correlation with games and their promotion.

    As it was already explained in interview with ex pokemon director(Masamitsu Hidaka) on pokebeach,writers rather want to switch up girls to try out new designs and provide new "eye candy"to male audience with each new generation(as sexist as that may sound).
    Perhaps if May failed in popularity writers would go back to Misty as already proven and successful protagonist from who they knew what kind of reaction to expect, but since she was received well they rather decided to start trend of constant cycling to better go with promotion of new generations which brought more damage than benefit in longer run to series quality and stability of storyline.

    As it can be noticed May popularity in longer run didn't matter much, just like Misty's didn't not influencing staff decisions.

    So no, there are no conspiracy theories from writer side toward Misty for not coming back to cast, its just how current formula of anime works .

    She gets mentions simply because she's part of the shows history. We've seen Tracey tons of more times after Orange Islands, does that mean the writers want to bring Tracey back? No, he's just constantly shown and mentioned simply because he's always going to be there at Oaks.
    Point is how Misty still received much more recognition, development and promotion as character after departure than May, Dawn, Max or Tracey did. There was much more references to her in form of various tokens(like handkerchief, lure etc) , appearances in opening, references to Cerulean gym, being showed in non speaking cameos in flesh, speaking real appearances along with more emphasis being out on her in hosos. In much higher amount than other girls received. Which says something being writers way of respect toward original girl which set up groundwork for future girls to come making sure that fandom never forgets her.

    Regardless of what kind of future she might or might not have in anime.

    Back in 2005 we didn't think it would be Misty's final appearance, simply because back then we didn't know they would continue to bring in new girls every series. But then as 7 years and 3 series passed, and especially how the DP arc didn't give her a cameo at all, it now makes her last appearances in AG look rather telling.

    Is it possible Misty can appear again? Sure, its possible. But if Best Wishes ends and she doesn't appear, this will be the second full generation without Misty showing up. If that doesn't prove they're done, I don't know what will.
    Main issue with your argument is over reliance on longevity of someone absence and how much time it has passed in between. If random return of Jessibelle, Jasmine, Gary, Giovanni or Charizard doesn't indicate for you how long absence plays no input in possibility of past character revival. Since you can always incorporate previous companion in story again playing valuable role, while making sure that his own story/career receives benefit from it as well.
    It only depends on writers willingness if they want to do more with him/her having right vision through which character could go forward.

    Especially if we are talking about original and iconic character like Misty which has huge following and popularity behind herself, never received closure to story with writers leaving things undefined allowing for easy revival. Im sure you have noticed in her last appearance how this episode didn't wrap up in any way Misty character and role not being written in way which could be described as someone "finale".

    Just because we haven't seen her comeback in B or C region doesn't mean same scenery will happen in D region. Making such logic flawed.

    As for the rest of your points, its all just speculative. We can't say how Misty would have been handled in Hoenn because there's no indication what they would do with her. As for the original trio, it was only ever used in two sagas, the second of which is Johto. Entire generations of kids have grown up watching the show long after Misty left, so its not even like everyone began watching with her in it anymore.
    Its educated guess. -If Misty and her pokemon always received more screen time, development and attention than Brock did when they were in cast at same time

    -if Takeshi Shudo blatantly said how role she performed at that time wasn't sustainable to warrant keeping her for longer, meaning increase of her part in anime was required

    -if she had more active goal involving battling and entering competitions which allows flexibility to include her in various plots from which Brock would had no benefit at all(like villain arc being fitting to have passionate water trainer trying to stop someone from exterminating water pokemon, allowing that she plays role in episodes featuring Wallace or Juan, have her enter battle related competitions like May and Ash entered)

    -accompanied with fact how even Brock regardless of how you might have felt bout him in Hoenn received more spotlight and focus on his own breeding aspect, caught more pokemon which received more focus and was less in background compared to Johto,

    Logic says how Misty would definitely receive more focus and bigger role than Brock had in AG with Max never becoming part of main cast than, along with May possibly receiving slightly less amount of screen time.
    Since writers usually tend to give female companions more focus than its case with male sidekicks having to find way to properly balance focus between two girls in one cast.

    Bottom line is these last 10 years wouldn't have seen Misty be completely phased out of the show if the writers wanted her to stay relevant. They had no trouble keeping Brock around for another 8 years, its especially telling how Misty didn't get the Brock treatment in the anime, regardless if most people feel Brock was handled badly in the later arcs.
    In long running show this doesn't mean much because in future writers certain can incorporate Misty in anime again. If anything past has taught us how writers are certainly willing to bring back older favorites if situation becomes critical and popularity and ratings experience undesired decline. As such very popular characters or pokemon from past are usually saved as secret weapon, resort on which writers can count to help increase show appeal and credibility when needed since they proven in past already to have appeal and charm needed for such task.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    I would think the opposite. Misty would likely be the absolute last choice for a character revival and Dawn's BW2 cameo proved that to me.
    All this characters you counted and long absence since Misty left cast doesn't add much, because there is difference between original characters which were backbone on which show popularity was build, and those which came afterwards. When you want to revive character as main lead again to concuss things up and bring new angle to series in form of unexpected, fresh twist to recapture people interest your gonna make sure to include someone who can hype things up, attract more fans toward anime and spread its appeal to full potential.

    When comparing Misty with other female leads her established strong popularity, appealing factor and iconic status pretty much guarantees how her return could help restore ratings attracting more of older fans toward anime, increase sales and anime reputation to higher degree than May, Iris or even Dawn could.

    Since she was in show at time when it was most popular being known and accepted among wider group of fans.
    For same reason out of Ash older pokemon there is a reason why his original team, especially Charizard is going to be glorified over Sceptile, Infernape, Torkoal etc since he is much more iconic and recognizable worldwide establishing stronger popularity and charisma abut himself that his successors could.

    In here its not so much about writers playing on favorite card, but more on someone on who they can count to be most optimal way to bring benefit and return money invested in his revival and all trouble writing staff has gone through to restore his role.

    And Misty could always come in consideration since she is original and iconic female being there when everything started. In almost every TV show original cast is hold in high regard being bound to get some recognition sooner or later.

    Another important factor which determine which character is going to be choose before another is also flexibility and how practical someone return from story standpoint is.

    Which brings us to Misty whose role and way in which she was written out left foundation with story on which they could pick up and do sequel, if they ever felt need to do it.

    Such as expansion on water master career making further steps forward by entering competitions related to Whirl Cup. Take step forward with her pokemon building up on team through evolutions, new captures or intense work.If anything her dream allows that her plot easily intertwine with Ash's again more than its case with other companions even longterm wise, such as joining cast again.
    For example since her dream is to become water master(top class of water trainer in world) she could enter tasks she would need to pass to determine if she has potential to become E4 , which instantly draws parallel with Ash story serving as link to it . Since by having Misty passing tasks and evaluators someone needs to do to be recognized as having potential to take up such place in future,we could see whole E4 and how they function being better explained directly influencing Ash storyline too.

    In a way Misty never received closure with her dreams and aspirations being left unfinished. Unlike its case with Brock or Gary who blatantly changed their carers, May or Dawn who set up (cemented)what they want to do with lives deciding their future and reliance on contests with Misty writers left things sorta unclear not knowing if she still wants to become water master or not. Judging by reaction in "Gotta Catch Ya Later" and in chronicles they made it rather obvious how she never gave up from her original goal being left on large part uncleared what are her future plans leaving room for changes so to speak. Especially since she isn't reliant on game quests making her highly flexible character.

    She is sort of in middle, being one of reasons why i think writer could reintroduce her back if truly wanted if sequel is done, only expanding on her ambitions.

    I would also like to add on your remark of constant add of new companions "sealing Misty chances" for revival. Going by that logic we can bring up same conclusion about older pokemon return like Charizard with constant adding of new pokemon which evolved in powerhouses in Ash team closing down chances of older pokemon ever playing major part again. We could say same thing about new villains like Team Galactic, Team Plasma or N annihilating any chances for revival of TR organization and Giovanni which was anything but case.

    You ask if writers ever had intention of reviving Misty, why it didn't happen in past? You answered that question yourself already with new characters and series being enough popular on their own with writers not having need to resort to such steps at that time.

    As [BlueLatios[/B] already pointed out at some point constant addition of new companions will lose its appeal and substance forcing writers to look for new ideas and alternatives to preserve anime popularity, such as reuse of older companions which proven to be successful and appealing enough to serve as "their ace in hole" to help rebuild lost popularity. As we can notice it wasn't until BW and unexpected drop of ratings and show reputation that forced writers to resort to return of popular older pokemon, characters, highly unusual amount of references to past sagas and companions being done obviously with attempt to keep people interested in watching show and bring back lost popularity, fans which reckless and wrong decisions done in past turned away from pokemon franchise.

    Judging by onslaught of throwbacks to past and unexpected returns of previous characters, pokemon its quite possible that writers bring back fan favorite like Misty eventually too if current measures don't prove themselves to be enough productive to help pull series from slump they have fallen into renewing lost popularity.

    EDIT:
    @Bluelatios: I agree with you, because in order to have successful franchise and show in TV industry producers and writers will make sure to write in way which would satisfy customer needs making their product wanted and appealing to much wider group of people as possible, serving as ensuring policy how positive reception will lead to spread of positive experiences to wider group of fans out here leading to increase of popularity and money.

    However writers from pokemon anime showed numerous times to have wrongly set priorities in their mind with fan demand usually receiving no response at all. Whether its change of formula investing more in older companions which proven to be successful and appealing capitalizing on popularity. Such as bringing all time favorites like Misty for who demand is huge. Do more substantial growth with protagonists like Ash growing forward , have more continuity based story and on going plot etc.

    And because of such approach anime is experiencing constant decline in popularity, drop of ratings and lose of reputation and credibility with people complaints only reflecting disappointment about mess, rut current show has been dug into.
  13. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    Generally, I've noticed most older fans who stuck with the show in Johto stopped really enjoying the show when Misty left. I did for a while, until May stopped being so stupid and got her act together, making her much more like-able when she did so. The other biggest complain is the voice over switch, which most older fans were also disappointed with. I myself am used to the fact Misty is long gone and the original voice actors for Ash and TRio in the dub aren't returning to said roles, but I can't say I like either of those decision (though looking at how unlikeable the writers are making some of the older characters, I guess it was for the best Misty left as I still look upon her favorably as opposed to Brock in his final arc-- though I still overall prefer Brock to Cilan, DP Brock was not my cup of tea).

    The BW series has been interesting in that most of those who stuck with the show from Seasons 1-13 hate its guts, but those who haven't tend to find it a breath of fresh air. It's mostly been met with disapproval, though, and that reflects in the drop in ratings for the series in the US and JPN. With each series, the anime continues to lose ratings, and unfortunately it looks like the Pokemon anime will end up being cancelled due to low ratings in the future, or end on a poor note.

    The four main things that have attributed to why the show isn't as popular (or really, as liked as the OS, by a lot of fans) are basically:

    1) Misty's departure at the end of Johto in Season 5- Took away the sense of camaraderie established between the three main characters, and the unique dynamic they shared. A lot of people feel Kasumi/Misty could never be replaced like that, and it shocked them greatly she was. Many fans to date prefer her to May, Dawn, and Iris.
    *2) English Dub Switch in Season 9 from 4Kids to TPCi- Took away well-defined personalities of main characters in English, and some would even argue replaced the very characters themselves that day with totally different individuals. Additionally, intros, dub music, and dub scripts for TRio are also generally considered very shoddy in comparison to what they used to be.*
    3) AG and DP taking the series in too mature of a direction without keeping things more dynamic, fluid, and personality-engaging (DP in particular suffers greatly in this department)
    4) BW's generally poor writing and Ash's regression.

    *NOTE: Condition 2 only applies to the English dubbed version.*
  14. Hoopa's Avatar
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    This has got to be the most text heavy comment section I have ever seen.
  15. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Pokemonfan132 is used to posting 10 page essays about Misty, even though her character is really not anymore popular than those who came after her. But his posts are always in essay format that he makes it seem like it is true.

    Takeshi Shudo confirmed why Misty was removed from the show, and it was due to the dullness of Johto and more or less that Misty became stale and flanderized. Shudo's own words were that Misty "wasn't a good enough female protagonist" which is pretty much how non-Japanese fans would say, "Yeah, Misty was stale."
  16. Bluelatios's Avatar
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    Well....what if she is the most popular? I mean really, and I'm not trying to be rude- just trying to tell the honest truth, but who are you to claim outright that Misty isn't more popular than the others? How is it that people like myself, pokemonfan, stickerstar, and several others on the forum have observed differently? Or are you going to accuse us of bias?

    Listen, there's a time when I'm open to a good clean conversation, and a time when I need to defend my friends and those with honest opinions. That's really what too many conversations around Pokemon anime forums like this come down to. The side that disagrees often accuses the other of personal bias when they can't get others to agree with them. Its just not right.
    Updated 10th March 2013 at 06:06 PM by Bluelatios
  17. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Pokemonfan132 is used to posting 10 page essays about Misty, even though her character is really not anymore popular than those who came after her.
    This is relevant how? You went from "he likes typing 10 page essays" straight to "she is not that much more popular". If he has a lot to say, why not type all that's on his mind? Misty may not be much more popular, but she is more iconic.

    For the record, 10 pages isn't long enough for me, but that's neither here nor there.

    Shudo's own words were that Misty "wasn't a good enough female protagonist"
    Which could have been fixed by addressing the issue. The high ratings said otherwise.

    Also, going by that logic, May and Dawn and Iris (who will be replaced) aren't good enough either.
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  18. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelatios
    Well....what if she is the most popular? I mean really, and I'm not trying to be rude- just trying to tell the honest truth, but who are you to claim outright that Misty isn't more popular than the others? How is it that people like myself, pokemonfan, stickerstar, and several others on the forum have observed differently? Or are you going to accuse us of bias
    Because she obviously isn't any more than the rest of the cast. She stayed gone when she was replaced, and then was purposely buried by the writers shortly after her last AG cameo ended. How do you explain away Misty staying gone for 10 years? There are no behind the scenes reasons Misty can't come back, its just that the writers don't think her character is worth reviving in the series.
  19. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Pokemonfan132 is used to posting 10 page essays about Misty, even though her character is really not anymore popular than those who came after her. But his posts are always in essay format that he makes it seem like it is true.
    There is a reason why there exist such a big demand for Misty return and reunion of original trio. For last 10 years internet is full of those fans with number being counted in thousands. There is a reason why Misty brigs most controversy and speculation in fandom whenever is mentioned even minor chance of seeing her again and fact that other girl departures didn't lifted nearly as much dust like Misty departure did shows how big impact this character left on show.

    There is a reason why so many petitions were made with majority of older veterans demanding her return.

    Im not sure why your trying to ignore past like none of this happened, when it clearly did . Going by all of this i don't know about you, but it sure does make it seem like Misty left bigger impact and achieved stronger popularity among fandom than any of her successors did. Its not only her but whole original trio in general being in general viewed as most important cast since they were actual backbone on which everything started.

    Takeshi Shudo confirmed why Misty was removed from the show, and it was due to the dullness of Johto and more or less that Misty became stale and flanderized. Shudo's own words were that Misty "wasn't a good enough female protagonist" which is pretty much how non-Japanese fans would say, "Yeah, Misty was stale."
    Now your just twisting out facts to strengthen your point of view. Mr. Shudo only said how he personally found how "Misty didn't had enough charm for a girl" not only in Johto but in whole original series. If you don't remember originally he thought of replacing Misty before Johto even started but die to anime popularity and other members of writing staff he had no choice but to keep status quo for time being.

    Just because you thought how Misty was "stale" doesn't translate to other people point of view, nor your words hold anymore weight than those from opposite side.
    Needless to say your using wrong terminology in here.

    Flanderization is when one or two traits about character are exaggerated to the point of this being the only thing going fir him/her consuming his whole personality.
    Last time i checked Misty was anything but one dimensional boring character having multiple quirks and traits in Johto region being vivid and passionate. Anyone who watched Johto can notice for himself how she was still quirky,flamboyant and vivid which got some solid development growing in more mature and level headed character over time with most people welcoming her growth.

    Especially given highly positive critic reception character received in chronicles or Hoenn from fandom.

    Like i said just because you didn't liked Misty character development=/= mean character changed for worse. Especially when Misty got more focus, battling , development and focus on her own dreams(especially in Master Quest) compared to all sagas she was in.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    There are no behind the scenes reasons Misty can't come back, its just that the writers don't think her character is worth reviving in the series.
    Going by that logic same could've been said about Giovanni or Charizard return. They were absent for years, yet writers still revived them.

    It has nothing to do with writers holding some sort of vendetta against Misty contrary to some belief. They simply choose not to resort to revival of previous characters unless its necessary, or find his/her return could help advance current storyline fitting in current environment.
  20. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    I agree with pokemon fan 132, Bluelatios and stickerstaryoshi, this blog was well written. I've never watched Tiny Toons but the other analogies are spot on. Also Misty IS important, as is Brock.
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