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Why The First 5 Seasons Are The Very Best, Like No One Ever Was! - Tentative Title

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by , 3rd March 2013 at 08:55 PM (6101 Views)
Welcome to ★stickerstaryoshi's☆ first ever blog entry! I've decided to do this after being inspired by certain blogs, but I digress. (Huh, this seemed so much easier before I actually started writing.)

Why The First Five Seasons of Pokemon Are The Very Best, Like No One Ever Was! (Part 1?) - Tentative Title

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Inspired by: pokemon fan 132

We all know how the anime has changed since 2002, and not necessarily for the better, either. I'll explain as I go along. I didn't have much time to finish, so I just settled for splitting this into at least 2 parts, hope no one minds.

~~~Characters~~~

Ash started off as a naive, optimistic kid. It was quite funny to watch him make a fool of himself. Then throughout OI, and Johto, he matured, while still keeping traces of his old personality. Many people admire Hoenn for having a "mature" Ash, but not only did Johto do it first, but it did it better. He wasn't learning lessons that he had already learned back in Kanto, unlike in Season 6+. To add to that, Johto still had him as a real character, instead of the "OMGILOVEPOKEMONLETSBATTLE" stereotyped shonen cliche he would later become.

Misty. Like I said above:

Misty was a temperamental girl who had a nice side
But there was more to her than that. For starters, she had to deal with living in the shadows of her sisters, making her more sympathetic than the average "tsundere". Like Ash, she developed throughout the course of OI and Johto, becoming more mature and less impatient, though still keeping traces of her personality. She kinda had to be patient, considering she was dealing with two babies (Ash and Togepi) :P . I don't think Togepi destroyed her character at all, in fact, Togepi was one of the best things to happen to her. Togepi forced the writers to explore other traces of her personality instead of always using her angry side. In addition, she was more motherly, and didn't conform to stereotypical gender standards. Yes, she was feminine, but not too girly. Now for (nearly) everyone's favorite black gym leader...no, not Lenora...

Brock! He is perhaps my favorite of the three, despite what would happen to him later on. It was funny and ironic to see a caretaker like Brock being completely serious, only to do a complete 180 when he saw a girl, usually resulting in him either getting dragged away by Misty, or REJECTED. Many will also say that Brock didn't change, but I disagree. Like Brock, the changes are just subtle. At first, he was completely serious (though compassionate), but by GCYL, he had learned to let himself feel sad in front of his friends (usually his crying was played for laughs), and he got a little less serious. Minor changes, but still development regardless.

With this kind of group dynamic, you'd think they'd stick around for quite a while, right? They really seemed inseparable and irreplaceable, but sadly, it didn't last. Misty leaving was perhaps the biggest mistake the anime has made, and probably always will be. Yes, even more than the voice change (at least that only affected the English dub). Since Misty left, character interactions have went downhill, and so have the characters themselves. None of the people who came in afterwards have been nearly as good as her (although I'm fine with Iris). And now, in BW, Brock is gone, this time for good. Without Misty to turn to, Brock got more and more flanderized, same with Ash, who got more and more boring.

~~~Plot Details, and how Pokemon Compares to Other Media~~~

Everyone who's kept up with the anime for at least a while knows what happens at the start of each generation, and what will happen in the next: Ash leaves his friends behind and replaces them with other people, he leaves all of his Pokemon behind except for Pikachu. This might have been okay had it only happened ONCE, but sadly, that's not the case. It just makes it that much harder to invest in the characters, knowing they're soon going to have to leave. Instead of just relying on the reset button as a cop out, they should work with what they have and make their characters better. Making a "fresh start" isn't ADDRESSING the problem, it's just covering it up (very thinly, I might add), and adding new problems, too. What good is character investment when they'll fall victim to the endless cycle? This is an indirect example of Misty leaving affecting the anime negatively.

I will never get why they had to replace Misty and Brock to begin with, it just doesn't work. By now, we're all so used to it that it hardly affects us anymore, but for me, it's still not right. To give you an idea of what I mean, imagine a Mickey Mouse series without Pluto, or even Goofy. It MIGHT work, but it just feels off. Even if they did get stale, why not redeem them? After all, they managed to make Dawn more entertaining (despite her unsatisfying cameo), why couldn't they do the same with Misty or Brock? Other shows keep the same characters and do just fine. Granted, they sometimes get derailed, but is the alternative (character replacement) really much better?

Another thing people like to point out is that we are not the target audience, and that they are only writing for kids. If that's the case, why are they bringing back old characters in BW? Why have cameos at all? Why did they show the Misty lure back in DP? Did they just choose randomly? (Personally, I think it was a desperate ratings trap, and it worked too :P ). Other kids shows have something for everyone, and so did Pokemon - for a time. My Little Pony (which I don't watch) is for little girls, but the creators are apparently actively working to please the adult male demographic (bronies). Heck, grown men are buying the toys, which people say they won't do for Pokemon. If you can get grown men to buy MLP toys, why not Pokemon, right?

For a more gender-neutral example, Animaniacs, Tiny Toons, Looney Tunes, Rocko's Modern Life, etc. were for kids, but still had adult references so that EVERYONE can enjoy. Even today, people still love these shows, because they just hold up. I don't think I've seen a single person complain about any of those shows. In the long run, aiming for as wide of an audience as possible is beneficial to ratings, reputation, and the like. If Pokemon didn't limit itself to a kid audience and actually address their problems, it could have the same critical reception as the ones mentioned above.

~~~Rivalries (aka Gary was here, Paul and Trip are LOSERS!!!)~~~

We all know Gary Oak, right? Yes? Then I'll just get into the rivalry. His rivalry with Ash was GREAT. Every single time he appeared, he taunted Ash and got an angered reaction out of him, and it was always funny. Then we have Paul, who is loved by most of the fandom. In my honest opinion? He's boring, and so is the rivalry. He's powerful, yes, but he really has no personality. His backstory was sad, but it was pretty hard to feel sorry for him. Perhaps if he wasn't a douche to everyone he met, and wasn't a cardboard cutout, this wouldn't be the case. It does seem original on the surface, but when you actually witness it, it's just an overglorified "COTD is being mean to his Pokemon" subplot drawn out for almost 200 episodes! The actual rivalry was nothing more than "Ash and Paul meet up, Ash tries to be nice to him, Paul acts like a douche, Ash gets all whiny", each and every time. At that point, Ash was also boring, so it made the rivalry even more unengaging. Now Trip...he's at least little more interesting than Paul. So what's my problem with his rivalry? Ash. He really doesn't react to what Trip says or does, just shrugs it off. The rivalry might be somewhat more engaging if Ash played his role in it correctly, but he pretty much just goes through the motions here. Also, the writers have yet again attempted to "freshen" things up by making him a rookie trainer, resulting in, you guessed it, a ton of complaints (this, coupled with Ash's regression, did not help matters at all).

So, yeah, Gary >>>>>> Trip >>>>>> Paul.

The winner is Gary Oak!!!

~~~Emotion~~~

I'm sure this is no contest, OS has much more genuine emotion than the rest. For example, Pikachu's Goodbye had Ash thinking of leaving Pikachu, thinking that it would be better for him to stay in the forest with all the other Pikachu than continue on with him. Now, we all knew that Pikachu wouldn't actually leave, but seeing Ash get all choked up when about to abandon his first Pokemon, and Pikachu wanting to stay with him - it's enough to make anyone feel for him. In Snow Way Out, we had Ash about to freeze to death, and trying to get Pikachu into his ball so he wouldn't share the same fate, but he refuses to stay in, despite the weather condition. Then, soon enough, his Pokemon all come out to warm him up. That alone showed how strong his bond with Pikachu - and his other Pokemon - is. This hasn't really been explored in newer series (the Ash + Pikachu bond in particular is now nothing more than "just take out word for it okay?").

Ash and co. were not the only one who could provide emotion - Team Rocket could, too! In Go West Young Meowth, we saw how Meowth learned to talk in order to impress Meowsie, a female Meowth, but it only led to her looking down on him as a Persian swept him off his feet, leading him to hate the Persian species. Who wouldn't feel sorry for him after that? Jessie and James have pretty sad backstories, too. Later on in Chronicles/AG/DP, the new backstory additions caused timeline errors/plotholes, but back then, there was no problem.

~~~Leagues~~~

You know something else that was better back then? The leagues. The Indigo League was a tournament (I like the anime's approach on the "after-badge quest"), but there was more to it than just the battles. This league was more of a culmination of Ash's journey, featuring his friends, as well as league-only rivals. Many didn't like how he lost, and while it was frustrating, it made sense from an in-universe perspective. It wasn't as bad as a lot of what would come after...

Next, the Orange League. Instead of just a battle tournament, the viewers found Ash doing various sports (racing, mountain climbing, etc.), with some battles inbetween. After he got the 4 OI badges, he then fought Drake (and won!). THIS was not only a nice change of pace, but he actually won a league! Not a main region league, but still.

The Silver Conference was great as well, it finally gave the Ash vs Gary rivalry sone closure, and it showed how far Ash had come. I considered this a return to form after the OI format (not that I had anything against it). He lost to Harrison's Blaziken with Charizard (who listened, at least), but at least it was a fair fight.

Hoenn League: It wasn't that bad, but not that good either. All of the other competitiors were just random people (I even count Morrison and Tyson because they appeared too late), didn't help that Ash had no rival. It got boring seeing just the Hoenn Pokemon, and the way Ash lost was pretty unsatisfying. Nothing really stood out to me besides the Meowth in boots.

Sinnoh League: Weak. It started off pretty lame, with Ash's battle with Nando (I honestly forgot about this guy) being skimmed through by Team Rocket (did they REALLY need to be in this episode?). It got better later on, although I thought the AvP 3-parter was too drawn out. Then all of a sudden, Tobias randomly appeared. No background, no personality, nothing, he was just a guy with 2 (not one, but TWO!!) legendaries, created only to beat Ash. As bad as that sounds, it's still better than...

Unova League: We've all seen it, we all hated it. This does not need explaining.

So that's it for now.

Oh, and before ANYONE pulls out the nostalgia card, note that I still like Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, etc. - things from my CHILDHOOD. In fact, Super Mario Galaxy is among my favorite games. If I was really "nostalgic", wouldn't I hate this game?

Withdraw all nostalgia cards please.

~stickerstaryoshi

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Updated 18th February 2014 at 11:56 AM by speedingbulletbill

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  1. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Just realized I can't edit blogs...
  2. Karamazov's Avatar
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    Are you getting a picture of a pencil next to your blog's title?

    On the subject of the blog...
    Paul, who is loved by most of the fandom. In my honest opinion?
    It's more of a mixed to dislike. He's appreciated more here, though.

    , but he really has no personality.
    Yes he did. He was overly serious with with just as much experience with Ash, and is very brutal in battle. He's willing to abandon his Pokemon if they don't meet his expectations. His interactions with his Pokemon and other people show that he's the polar opposite of Ash, the anti-Ash. It's because of his different training style and regard towards others, he drives Ash to confront him and improve himself.

    it's just an overglorified "COTD is being mean to his Pokemon" subplot drawn out for almost 200 episodes!
    Not really. A lot of episodes focus on their rivalry, not just about how Paul is a jerk. There was even an episode or two where Paul even helped Ash - the episode where Infernape evolved.

    He really doesn't react to what Trip says or does, just shrugs it off.
    I disagree, I think the problem lied in Trip. As was mature enough not to act all pissy just because some kid is making fun of his home. He tries to engage Trip in battle and treat him like a friend, but it's Trip who's dismissive and unwilling to actually treat him like a rival.
    Updated 3rd March 2013 at 09:05 PM by Karamazov
  3. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    Someone else likes Trip more than Paul besides me? The APOCALYPSE is coming! XD.
  4. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    @SonGoku; Yes, it is! XP Seriously, though, Trip is so much better.
    @Contrary; Yes, I see a pencil. Thanks!
    I'll be right with ya soon.
    Updated 3rd March 2013 at 09:46 PM by speedingbulletbill
  5. Karamazov's Avatar
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    Also, mentions only work if you but the person's username between an @ sign and a semicolon. Like so: @stickerstaryoshi;
  6. Ranger Jack Walker's Avatar
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    aww hell no
  7. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    I'm not going to really refute any of this as its your opinion, although it shouldn't surprise anyone that Johto is still considered one of the worst arcs of the series and people feel Misty was derailed as a character shortly after Johto began. (Although I suppose in the long run, she did have it better off than Brock when you include DP)

    The original trio felt bland most of the time in Johto, to the point where you didn't even feel like it was the same characters from Kanto. Ash interacted more with those Johto COTD's than either Misty or Brock. I'm just surprised the writers actually acknowledged how poorly received this arc of the anime was a decade ago, Shudo actually comments on it in his blogs so the writers had to have been aware if its poor reception at the time.

    Its not really surprising that the arc literally caused the writers to abandon both the original trio and Misty for the rest of the series.
  8. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    I always thought how Misty leaving and split of original trio was definitely reckless move from writer side. People can say what they want but with her departure this show lost great deal of appeal and playful charm she used to brought into cast interactions making things lively. Not only in igniting reactions from Ash side which often led to clash and comic scenes, but Brock as well keeping him more active in characterization with both being romantic souls with Misty balancing out his pervy side and obsession over girls unlike it was case later on with writers not having anyone to control his side well enough.

    But its not only them, with about any character Misty usually guaranteed to bring lot of excitement, drama and humor in ečisodes encapsulating dynamics better than her successors did imho.

    Adding on that she had unique dreams and story of becoming water master adding level of unpredictability and uniqueness to whole thing, with her story never being fleshed out enough to meet closure.

    But its not only Misty, her departure start whole negative trend of excessive cast replacing depriving anime from stable established cast which grows forward being taken through more substantial growth and build on friendship going beyond simplified introduction phase better promoting idea of adventurous show where friends explore world strengthening their relationship.

    It deprived show from brand which would keep viewers loyal toward show discourage idea to invest into characters and stick until very end to see how things will pan out, since they leave so often never having chance to be used to full potential ending unfinished.

    Meaning less viewers, less money and decline in popularity with anime losing its identity and reputation.

    On top of that it deprives anime from on going story, more cohesive and filled with more content plot since every story and history certain cast establish gets flushed down the toilet in favor of new one rinse and repeat going through basics all over again destroying continuity, series history and chance to have compact plot which transfers to new regions doing continuation.
    Which is anything but most optimal way to keep people interested into show and achieve long lasting popularity.

    There is more to eye than it meets surface and looking back split of original cast led to whole chain of undesired side effects instead of following example other long lasting shows which keep cast do having more connected story,and consistent following which keeps its ties to past and already accumulated growth characters went through doing build up on characterization and storyline.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    I'm not going to really refute any of this as its your opinion, although it shouldn't surprise anyone that Johto is still considered one of the worst arcs of the series and people feel Misty was derailed as a character shortly after Johto began. (Although I suppose in the long run, she did have it better off than Brock when you include DP)
    By people i presume your speaking for yourself, because most of time i encounter exact opposite claims with most fans feeling how Misty left before her time was up finding she had most personality out of original trio in Johto.

    She was still vivid, feisty and humorous as character there while getting some valuable growth becoming more mature and independent breaking out from sisters shadow, learn how to be more tolerant and grew to appreciate friendship with Ash and Brock to the point of considering them "new family"as she pointed out in several episodes with all of above allowing to push her story forward resulting in saving gym from being shut down, earning sisters respect found courage to overcome fear from Gyarados which stood on her way etc..

    There is a difference between character derailment and development. And for Misty change in characterization happened because of later part.

    The original trio felt bland most of the time in Johto, to the point where you didn't even feel like it was the same characters from Kanto. Ash interacted more with those Johto COTD's than either Misty or Brock. I'm just surprised the writers actually acknowledged how poorly received this arc of the anime was a decade ago, Shudo actually comments on it in his blogs so the writers had to have been aware if its poor reception at the time.
    Point was never to reproduce same interactions they had in Kanto but to actually build on their friendship. If anything their friendship was actually strengthened there developing very strong bond between themselves, and giving out impression of companions which passed through many things knowing themselves for long time with interactions containing lot of comedy, sarcasm, tension and moral support even there.

    I really don't know from where you get impression how Ash interacted more with COTD??? There was plenty of banter and gamesome joking between Ash and Misty, arguing when they got lost, talks about their own wishes and desires and how much they passed together. I recall all three looking in stars and shooting star burning in determination to achieve their dreams. Or when Misty and Brock joked with each other playing in water with other pokemon, or helping themselves encouraging to be natural and act like himself. Such as when Brock old friend Suzie came back.

    About what lack of chemistry your talking about= Because there was plenty of dynamic between Ash, Misty and Brock there.

    Hell if there wasn't any dynamic departure between original trio wouldn't be so emotional reflecting incredibly tight bond they created.

    Main problems with Johto was lack of direction to take things forward and excessive use of fillers, but as far as characterization and group dynamics go they were easily one of Johto highlights with interactions between Ash, Misty and Brock feeling natural and endearing.

    I don't know about you but there is a reason why original trio is considered as cast which had best interactions both in Kanto and Johto among many fans out there advocating for their return.

    Its not really surprising that the arc literally caused the writers to abandon both the original trio and Misty for the rest of the series.
    Than i suppose we can say both for May and Dawn as characters since writers replaced them in favor of new ones. Main reason why older characters aren't brought back is because of advertizing and pšroducer desire to rather use new girls for fanservice. Which is reflection of writers laziness and conservative approach being counterproductive to creativity, because they rather choose easier way introducing new character following basic growth and rehash of what we already saw with countless of previous companions, instead of investing more in already developed, popular characters with solid groundwork taking advantage of strong following and establish groundwork they established around themselves.
    Updated 4th March 2013 at 06:35 AM by pokemon fan 132
  9. eat's Avatar
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    i reckon kanto was gr8 but johto was boring for the most part. though i haven't seen much of the later seasons. i'm working on it.
  10. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Gypsy
    i reckon kanto was gr8 but johto was boring for the most part. though i haven't seen much of the later seasons. i'm working on it.
    Kanto and Orange Islands were the most consistent well thought out seasons. When Takeshi Shudo stepped down in Johto his affect on the anime could be felt. The show stopped being a series and turned into nothing more than a collection of repetitive fillers advertising the Johto games.

    You can pretty much tell AG and DP were an attempt to bring some plot and character development back into the series, its only major faults was this led to the flanderization of Brock and Team Rocket, which makes me think if they dropped them when Johto ended too, we would have been better off.
  11. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Gypsy
    i reckon kanto was gr8 but johto was boring for the most part. though i haven't seen much of the later seasons. i'm working on it.
    Only 4th season Johto league champions if you ask me. Johto Journeys had lot of adventurous feeling to it when series started out with many episodes being well thought out and enjoyable.

    And Master Quest was probably one of best season with writers fixing several flaws made before. Number of pointless fillers decreased significantly, Misty and Brock received more focus, there were several arcs introduced which contributed to current plot(Like Whirl Cup, Red Gyarados, Lugia, Larvitar etc), gym leaders were depicted in better light (like Pryce and his past or Clair which pulled with itself mini arc about Dragonite) group pokemon started to gain better development along with Johto Silver Conference being one of best leagues we ever had.

    This is when show became more plot centered again.

    @The Fighting Misty: Brock wasn't flanderized in AG. He had several memorable moments there playing of quite nicely with Ash,. May and Max.

    Anyhow i believe some people completely missed the point and message stricterstaryoshi said through this blog, with disband of original trio being like domino effect slowly leading to downfall of series quality and on great deal lose of charm and vibrant interactions Misty as character produced losing on its identity and balance.
    Updated 4th March 2013 at 07:51 AM by pokemon fan 132
  12. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Yes he did. He was overly serious with with just as much experience with Ash, and is very brutal in battle. He's willing to abandon his Pokemon if they don't meet his expectations. His interactions with his Pokemon and other people show that he's the polar opposite of Ash, the anti-Ash. It's because of his different training style and regard towards others, he drives Ash to confront him and improve himself.
    It wasn't really fleshed out well, though.

    Not really. A lot of episodes focus on their rivalry, not just about how Paul is a jerk. There was even an episode or two where Paul even helped Ash - the episode where Infernape evolved.
    I think I brought this up before, but his "development" was forced.

    I disagree, I think the problem lied in Trip. As was mature enough not to act all pissy just because some kid is making fun of his home. He tries to engage Trip in battle and treat him like a friend, but it's Trip who's dismissive and unwilling to actually treat him like a rival.
    You'd expect him to know better than to try and be nice to his rivals, he didn't act like this towards Gary.

    The Fighting Misty's points were addressed already.
  13. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    How were they addressed? Most people didn't like the Johto saga back when it was airing and it wouldn't be still addressed as one of the shows weakest arcs. Same goes for the way Misty and the original trio were handled in that arc.

    Why would so many different people in the fandom all come to the same conclusions then? It's been like this for the last 10 years since I first came to the online fandom back in 2003.

    In fact the whole reason why everyone knew, even back when Hoenn started for the first time, that the writers weren't going to bring Misty back or reunite the original trio was for this reason. If Brock hadn't lingered on people wouldn't even consider him to still be relevant in the same way.

    The show changed after Johto mainly because of the fandom. Shudo and the writing staff know how the arc was received upon its original airing which is why the series was revamped and continued in that direction. Even BW which has a more similar set-up to the OS is still handled very differently especially in terms of Iris and Cilan.
  14. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    How were they addressed?
    I meant that someone else (pokemon fan 132) addressed your points.

    Most people didn't like the Johto saga back when it was airing and it wouldn't be still addressed as one of the shows weakest arcs. Same goes for the way Misty and the original trio were handled in that arc.
    Most is a bit of an overstatement, don't you think? Maybe a lot of older viewers didn't like it, but the rest of us were satisfied with what they put out.

    Why would so many different people in the fandom all come to the same conclusions then? It's been like this for the last 10 years since I first came to the online fandom back in 2003.
    The fandom is a minority, I'm sure you've stated such at least a few times before.
  15. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    The fandom now doesn't matter because the kids watching the show today weren't even born when Johto was airing. I'm talking about the older fandom like myself who were already around 10-13 years old when Johto was airing in 2001-2002.

    Which is also precisely why Misty stayed gone and was never revived among the main cast, even after 3 generations. It's quite possible Misty's departure wasn't intended to be permanent at first, the writers were probably watching very closely to see how people received May and the Contests. They probably decided sometime back in 2004 which was when we were in the middle portion of Hoenn not to go back to the original trio, as they were probably also planning the tail-end of the arc at the time and knew what they were going to do next.

    Might also explain why Misty's cameo was so short lived at only 2 episodes. Whereas May got almost 5 episodes and Dawn got 8, we only did see 2 eps for Misty in Hoenn until Ash returned to Pallet. It's almost as of they made her return as brief as possible and removed her as quickly as she came back. She could have lingered on for a few fillers in Hoenn afterward but no they got rid of her again immediately in just 2 eps. And then after that her next appearance officially demoted her to Tracey 2.0 where she basically just had a Pallet visit.

    Funny how back in 2005 we didn't know those would be Misty's final appearances in the anime for the next 7 years not counting flashbacks, back then if we knew that was the end of her, her final appearance was literally wasted in a filler episode with Max and Clefairy. Aside from the dreadful Mastermind special but that's a different issue entirely.
  16. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Only 4th season Johto league champions if you ask me.
    Hey, now, I liked Johto League Champions! :P

    I thought Season 4 was brilliant, just like Seasons 1-3 and 5. Yes, it was at filler hell (filler heaven for me), but the product was great.

    And Master Quest was probably one of best season with writers fixing several flaws made before. Number of pointless fillers decreased significantly, Misty and Brock received more focus, there were several arcs introduced which contributed to current plot(Like Whirl Cup, Red Gyarados, Lugia, Larvitar etc), gym leaders were depicted in better light (like Pryce and his past or Clair which pulled with itself mini arc about Dragonite) group pokemon started to gain better development along with Johto Silver Conference being one of best leagues we ever had.
    I agree 100%, Master Quest was perhaps the most well written Johto season.

    @The Fighting Misty: Brock wasn't flanderized in AG. He had several memorable moments there playing of quite nicely with Ash,. May and Max.
    For me, he wasn't as bad as he would eventually become in DP, but still not nearly as good as in OS. There are worse characters than him, but that's another story XD

    Anyhow i believe some people completely missed the point and message stricterstaryoshi said through this blog, with disband of original trio being like domino effect slowly leading to downfall of series quality and on great deal lose of charm and vibrant interactions Misty as character produced losing on its identity and balance.
    Yeah. Misty leaving, by itself, may not have led to its downfall, but when combined with other things, it did. If Misty was so stale, why not work with what they have? Hoenn was filled with water, she could have been AWESOME there! With her around, Brock wouldn't have gotten so stale, seeing as he was mostly meant to play off of her.

    For a The Looney Tunes Show example, many ex-fans hate what Daffy has become, but the writers didn't replace them with a random duck, did they? No, they are at least TRYING to improve them, knowing replacement doesn't address the issue, or solve anything.
  17. Bluelatios's Avatar
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    Gliscor'd, think about what was happening with Pokemon as a whole back then. As with all tv and movie series, there's always a bit of "fad" attention that fades with sequels. At the time, the "fad" part of Pokemon was fading aka the people who watched because the whole thing was completely new were moving on, leaving those who still liked Pokemon for what it was to continue watching. Can it truly be said that the majority of Johto's lost popularity was the fault of the length or characters? Perhaps the fact that there were then more than 151 Pokemon may have contributed the biggest portion of those who turned from Pokemon. Then again, maybe it was simply because it was a sequel? So the real question is did Pokemon turn away people more than people turned away Pokemon?

    Another thing I question is your sources from which you follow fandom trends. If what you say is true, it might help us to understand if you list the primary sites you visited on a regular basis then and now. In other words, I want to know how much weight you give opinions on some sites over others and why.

    ps: I'm not sure you gave me credit for reading your blog beforehand stickerstar, I know I offered to help but it turns out I was busy and didn't get the chance to (sorry, XD)!
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  18. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi
    Yeah. Misty leaving, by itself, may not have led to its downfall, but when combined with other things, it did. If Misty was so stale, why not work with what they have? Hoenn was filled with water, she could have been AWESOME there! With her around, Brock wouldn't have gotten so stale, seeing as he was mostly meant to play off of her.

    For a The Looney Tunes Show example, many ex-fans hate what Daffy has become, but the writers didn't replace them with a random duck, did they? No, they are at least TRYING to improve them, knowing replacement doesn't address the issue, or solve anything.
    You know good and well that judging by how they handled Brock in Hoenn, Misty wouldn't have been any different. She'd likely drop all her pokemon behind except Togepi anyway to go along with the fresh start, and maybe capture two new pokemon at the most.

    And on top of that, she would then be ignored since May and the Contests would have been brought in anyway, which would lead to her joining Brock on the sidelines. I suppose if this happened Max wouldn't have joined since it'd already be a group of 4, but even then Misty would have been the same background material Brock became.

    And I don't like the way you keep trying to imply the Pokemon anime was about the original trio. Misty and Brock were never as important as Ash/Pikachu were, heck even Team Rocket is probably more important than them. The games change their protagonists every game, there was no reason to think Misty and Brock were going to be there forever...and in Brock's case he overstayed his welcome by at least one full generation even if he was still OK for AG.
  19. Ranger Jack Walker's Avatar
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    Didn't the head writer Takeshi Shudo flat out say that Team Rocket were more important than Misty? I have to agree with Scott. The original series was not about the original trio. I was about Ash and sometimes Pikachu. Everyone else was pretty damn unimportant in the long run. Its mostly due to nostalgia that most fans hype up Misty as this super important character whose departure led to the 'downfall' of pokemon when in fact, it had barely any effect. Pokemon had stopped being a fad long before Misty left and her depature had hardly any effect on the show's popularity.

    Even though so many people claim that they stopped watching after Misty left, there sure seem to know a whole lot about minor details from later seasons for someone who doesn't watch the show anymore.
  20. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Edit: Added an "Emotion" section!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    You know good and well that judging by how they handled Brock in Hoenn, Misty wouldn't have been any different.
    Brock probably would have gotten a bit aged, but not as stale as he was then, since he was made to play off Misty, as said before. Without Max, Ash would probably interact more with May, and Brock would interact more with Ash. You said you liked the 4 group dynamic - so there's no reason they can't pull it off with Misty in place of Max (who didn't add much to the show or go anywhere).

    She'd likely drop all her pokemon behind except Togepi anyway to go along with the fresh start, and maybe capture two new pokemon at the most.
    Togepi would evolve, getting rid of one of the "problems" people had with her: "Loss of personality".

    And on top of that, she would then be ignored since May and the Contests would have been brought in anyway, which would lead to her joining Brock on the sidelines. I suppose if this happened Max wouldn't have joined since it'd already be a group of 4, but even then Misty would have been the same background material Brock became.
    I don't know, I can see Misty doing contests, if only once, but she'd have to have her own motive.

    And I don't like the way you keep trying to imply the Pokemon anime was about the original trio.
    It isn't about the original trio - we all know that - it's about the journey. It still centers around them, though. On the same token, Spongebob isn't about Patrick, Sandy, Mr. Krabs (even though many episodes take place in the Krusty Krab), and Squidward. Mickey Mouse cartoons aren't about Pluto, but he stayed. I suppose he's not technically a "character", but my point still remains. Tiny Toons isn't about the group of Buster and Babs (you can add in Hamton and Plucky I guess). None got replaced, they gave each character at least a good amount of screentime, both side characters and main characters (Elmyra could have gotten a bit less, but oh well).

    Pokemon is still Pokemon, with or without the original trio; BUT, I could say the same for other shows.

    Misty and Brock were never as important as Ash/Pikachu were,
    Pluto is not as important as Mickey/Donald/Goody, Roadrunner and Coyote are not as important as Bugs/Daffy, Plucky and Hamton are not as important as Babs and Buster, etc.

    heck even Team Rocket is probably more important than them.
    They're villains, so it hardly counts.

    The games change their protagonists every game, there was no reason to think Misty and Brock were going to be there forever...and in Brock's case he overstayed his welcome by at least one full generation even if he was still OK for AG.
    At the time of, say, Johto, the separation of Ash/Misty/Brock was unthinkable, especially after they were just reunited after the Orange Islands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Jack Walker
    Didn't the head writer Takeshi Shudo flat out say that Team Rocket were more important than Misty?
    Weren't TR his creations? You'd kind of expect that from him. (Side note: In retrospect, he should have dropped TR instead so his pet characters wouldn't get disgraced.)

    The original series was not about the original trio. I was about Ash and sometimes Pikachu. Everyone else was pretty damn unimportant in the long run.
    Addressed already.

    Its mostly due to nostalgia that most fans hype up Misty as this super important character whose departure led to the 'downfall' of pokemon when in fact, it had barely any effect.
    There's more to it than 'nostalgia', but I've covered this before.

    Pokemon had stopped being a fad long before Misty left and her depature had hardly any effect on the show's popularity.
    All fads die, no matter how good something is. However, the fad might have lasted at least a bit longer had there not been so much filler in Johto and the GS Ball plot not dropped.

    Even though so many people claim that they stopped watching after Misty left, there sure seem to know a whole lot about minor details from later seasons for someone who doesn't watch the show anymore.
    Research, anyone?

    Also, some people who say that probably just mean they stopped being regular viewers.
    Updated 4th March 2013 at 03:50 PM by speedingbulletbill
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