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My few gripes with the first five seasons.

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by , 13th April 2013 at 02:50 PM (1432 Views)
Believe it or not, even I have my own personal problems with the original series! Yeah, many of them are trivial, but they're still gripes. Here they are:

~~~Kanto~~~

-Samurai, AJ, Giselle, etc. said they'd show up at the league, but didn't (I don't know if this is a dub thing).

-Certain aspects(like using a button on the Pokedex to switch Pokemon) were never seen again (though I'm not sure this is a problem with Kanto as much as a problem with other sagas for not using it).

-Ash never fought Gary.

-It was way too well-written, which set too high of a standard for later sagas to come, and also gave me very little to complain about.

~~~Orange Islands~~~

-Much of the Japanese culture in the show had been stripped away.

-Tracey, while good, wasn't Brock.

~~~Johto~~~

-Too many fillers. I like all Johto episodes (except for Hoenn Alone), but it could have been lessened.

-Gary didn't appear often.

-Hoenn Alone.

-Heracross was Oaked too early.

-Misty was unfinished.

-Hoenn Alone.

-Typhlosion, Furret, Flaaffy, and Togetic didn't get proper debuts.

-Did I mention Hoenn Alone already?

So yeah, that's about all I can think of at the moment.

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  1. Cerberuswaltz's Avatar
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    They did a lot of things wrong in Johto- as someone said (on here, I beleive) I don't think they knew where they were really going?
    Gary is a loser, anyways, to me, so I'm OK with him not being in it, but Misty not being developed did suck indeed.
  2. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    I think the break for Orange Islands made the writers forget how to write the original trio. Its like when Johto started they reunited the original cast and thought things would go back to the way they were in Kanto, but it didn't.

    Its strange because Misty's personality in Orange was still mostly the same as it was in Kanto, she was a little bit calmer but still had her temper. When you get a little bit into Johto however its just completely gone. Even eps where she's battling Ash for Totodile...its just nothing alike how she was in Kanto.
  3. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    @The Fighting Misty: Im not sure what show are you watching but Misty showed to have temper in Johto several times. Whether it was when arguing with Ash or being annoyed at his easy going attitude, when other characters provoked her underestimating her skills as trainer , when being annoyed by Brock obsession over girls coming up with biting insults etc.

    Yes Misty became more calm, but that was reflect of her character development . As we can see in Orange Islands and Johto she matured gradually becoming more tolerant and level headed, learned to understand feelings of water pokemon better whether its Psyduck, her Poliwhirl, Marill etc. Became more independent growing out of complex of feeling inferior to sisters helping others with same issues like Sakura and learned to appreciate her friends Ash and Brock more than it was case in Kanto.

    Misty there viewed her friends as new family which accepted her for who she was not having to justify herself and live in someones shadow like it was case with older sisters.

    In Johto we can still see Misty being full of competitive streak,sarcastic comments having tendency to tease Ash about his mistakes,we can still see her love for water types and fears(like fear from Gyarados and bugs),we can still see her caring side which was already showed to be part of her character both in Kanto and Orange with Misty being full of personality coming up with various pranks,m being curious wanting to solve mysteries on her own, enter events, glam herself up later regretting such as beauty treatment with Spinarak or Weedle etc.
    There was more to Misty character than just being violent going on rampage , nor she ever lost her fiery side being with time only less explosive.

    All characters develop over time and while their main traits which define them gets kept they change to some extent over time just like Ash,May and anyone else did reflecting what they learned.

    Development which got further carried to chronicles and AG showing Misty in more mature light compared to Kanto days having mix of playful, spunky yet more responsible, independent side.

    Something i never saw you complaining about as oppose to Johto saga where due to dislike of way region was written you seem to automatically dislike characters regardless if they were enjoyable or not. Fact that you are using episodes like fight over Totodile which was one of most fun episodes in OS showing plenty of interacting as evidence of "character losing personality" only confirms what i said above .


    Didn't May became over time less ditzy, energetic and insecure growing to like pokemon, became more secure in herself deciding what she wants to do and better coordinator?
    Just like Misty was different compared to Kanto, same applies tp May which was in BF and DP nothing like she was in Hoenn. Ash was very different in AG, DP and BW compared to Kanto.

    Which is reflect of development characters went through. Something which seems to me you simply in general don't support.
    Updated 15th April 2013 at 04:39 AM by pokemon fan 132
  4. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    If you agree that Johto was worst than Kanto/Orange in a lot of respects, then that basically proves the point. Johto was a step down from the first two seasons in terms of characterisation, development, pacing and storyline.

    The only thing Johto improved was the Gym battles and a few arcs towards the end of Master Quest. It was the weakest part of the original series, hence its negative reputation when it originally aired and why the saga wound up being sandwiched when AG and DP began afterward.
  5. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    If you agree that Johto was worst than Kanto/Orange in a lot of respects, then that basically proves the point. Johto was a step down from the first two seasons in terms of characterisation, development, pacing and storyline.
    Not lot, only some.
    Quality decreased in some segments like episodes becoming too formulaic and repetitive(applied to excessive use of fillers).Ash rivals and pokemon were treated badly,plots were butchered(like GS ball),and Rocket trio started to feel stale going nowhere.

    However original trio(Ash,Misty and Brock) in Johto still actually felt like genuine group of friends having good chemistry and several memorable moments. There was lot of fire, care, understanding and jokes present in their dynamics with friendship established in Kanto being further build upon.

    Ash companions received more development compared to Kanto, Orange. Misty entered more competitions, entered more battles and imprpoved her skills as trainer with more focus being out on her water master career. She learnwd how to be more tolrant and responsible getting over complex of inferiority, learned how to understand water pokemon better and becamne more indeoebdent often takjing initiatve and valued her friendship with Ash and Brockj more.

    Brock learned more about preparation of medicines, potions, pokemon food etc expanding knowledge as breeder and applying his knowledge on several occasions. Such as taking care of young Stantler, Golbat, Pineco, helping Totodile over love issues with others like Azumarill, entered breeder contest with Suzie etc.

    I don't need to say how battles were a lot better compared to first 2 seasons,Ash sidekicks actually battled more and get more screen time,we got several great arcs and memorable gym leaders,return from older characters(like Todd,Duplica or Aya) and there are many episodes from this region which were actually well written .

    It was the weakest part of the original series, hence its negative reputation when it originally aired and why the saga wound up being sandwiched when AG and DP began afterward.
    Weak in some aspects, strong in others.
    Majority of fandom acknowledged its positive sides and improvement it made over first two seasons not focusing only on bad sides. And negative reception over original cast dismantle goes without saying.
  6. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    I agree with most of these points, except a few (Note: This is not meant to tear it apart, just to address):

    *-Certain aspects(like using a button on the Pokedex to switch Pokemon) were never seen again (though I'm not sure this is a problem with Kanto as much as a problem with other sagas for not using it).*

    Agreed, but not a big deal. It certainly wouldn't have made Unova any better, for example.

    *-Ash never fought Gary.*

    No, but Gary was a step ahead, which made up for it.

    *-It was way too well-written, which set too high of a standard for later sagas to come, and also gave me very little to complain about.*

    Not disagreeing but I would put this on Orange and Johto too.

    *-Much of the Japanese culture in the show had been stripped away.*

    Not too big of a deal, the show doesn't center around JP culture

    *-Too many fillers. I like all Johto episodes (except for Hoenn Alone), but it could have been lessened.*

    I like each and every Johto episode (but HA is mediocre, it should have taken place on the Olivine port, NOT a boat to Hoenn!), so I have to disagree.

    The ones I took out are the ones I fully agree with. You should add this:

    -It ended in the first place.
  7. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=pokemon fan 132;bt281185]
    And negative reception over original cast dismantle goes without saying.[/QUOTE]


    Agreed. Something inside the series began to die when the original Trio parted ways at the end of Johto. While I still liked Hoenn and to some degree the early portion of Battle Frontier, it still didn't feel the same as Kanto-Johto without Misty. Still, I didn't mind Hoenn that much only because Misty still made some actual cameos, unlike in Sinnoh and Unova, where she has yet to make a physical appearance in an episode as opposed to an intro or an ending (the lure and the Galactic Battles intro in Sinnoh had a few throwbacks to Misty, while the most recent ending in Best Wishes! shows everyone holding hands, but they don't really count as much as actually seeing her on the show again).

    Still Hoenn and the beginning of Battle Frontier still felt somewhat like Pokemon to me because Misty still made some cameos, and in the dub, the original English voice actors for Ash and the others were still there for Hoenn and the beginning of Battle Frontier.

    The show really felt like it died to me when Pokemon Intl. dropped the original English voice actors in Season 9, and Misty gradually began to fade from the picture after Battle Frontier. Add to that May and Max left at the tail-end of Battle Frontier, and things really felt like they were changing way too fast for my tastes. It didn't really feel like Pokemon to me anymore.

    Sure I think seeing Misty's lure in DP and bringing back some of the old VA's in minor COTD roles in DP and BW has been rather nice, and the show in general was on the road to recovery in mid-DP and the character chemistry was in BW, the show really feels nothing like it used to. It's sad, but yeah, that's kinda how I feel.

    BW really feels like Pokemon for the next generation of children. I actually quite enjoy it myself, but it feels both very similar and very different from the original series to me. :)
  8. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    I agree, BW does feel like a new gen Pokemon, but theres still no excuse for its bad writing
  9. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Misty Calls Masquerain;bt284452]I agree, BW does feel like a new gen Pokemon, but theres still no excuse for its bad writing[/QUOTE]

    Agreed.

    "Not too big of a deal, the show doesn't center around JP culture"

    I swear, are you the only person who realizes this besides me?

    Is having a riceball over a sandwich really THAT important to people in the Pokemon anime? I mean, seriously, people.

    For example, in Unova, there are NO riceballs: Cilan even make them sandwiches now.

    Don't get me wrong. While I'd easily rather have more JPN culture in the show to respect the creators more and to expose children in the US to different cultures, it wasn't a big enough of a deal in Pokemon to make valid warranted complaints, IMHO. I don't approve of 4Kids' actions in those scenes, yet it had no real effect on the show, so I'm very indifferent to it.
    Updated 25th May 2013 at 06:24 PM by Pokémon Master Ash
  10. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    I'd rather have 25 minutes of badly edited riceballs than 25 minutes of horrible voices...

    I'm just saying.
  11. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=stickerstaryoshi;bt284499]I'd rather have 25 minutes of badly edited riceballs than 25 minutes of horrible voices...

    I'm just saying.[/QUOTE]

    ^Intelligence, thy name is StickerStarYoshi.^

    Seriously, it's just common sense: you nailed it. Completely agreed.

    Thing is, it was only 30 seconds for when Brock called riceballs "jelly-filled donuts," 45 seconds when Ash said "it's a giant sandwich," and 20 seconds with Morrison saying something like Ash. It's for such a short duration of time, and doesn't pertain to the storyline at all, so it doesn't overall detract from one's enjoyment of the show.

    Is it stupid and unnecessary? Definitely. Is it bad enough to say it makes things worse? Definitely not.
    speedingbulletbill likes this.
  12. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Jelly filled donuts are funny, Zoppi is not.
  13. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=stickerstaryoshi;bt284505]Jelly filled donuts are funny, Zoppi is not.[/QUOTE]

    I now know what Dogasu meant by "TRio is intolerable in this dub" when I read his review of "The Treasure Is All Mine!" At first, I honestly didn't agree with him, but they are indeed pretty unbearable in TPCi's dub.

    Occasionally Zoppi has his moments where he does improve the original JPN lines (like 3% of the time), but 97% of the time he makes things much worse than they have to be.
  14. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    The Treasure is All Mine wasn't a good episode, period.
    It was better than Noodles: Roamin' Off!, though.
  15. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=stickerstaryoshi;bt284511]The Treasure is All Mine wasn't a good episode, period.
    It was better than Noodles: Roamin' Off!, though.[/QUOTE]
    Very true.

    "A Lean Mean Team Rocket Machine!" was probably TRio's best episode in DP, IMO.
  16. speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Too bad they couldn't be like they were in ALMTRM throughout DP...
  17. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=stickerstaryoshi;bt284516]Too bad they couldn't be like they were in ALMTRM throughout DP...[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, it's a shame.
  18. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    DP trio is indeed not too good, but I still prefer them to Bland Wannabe TRio.
  19. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Misty Calls Masquerain;bt284552]DP trio is indeed not too good, but I still prefer them to Bland Wannabe TRio.[/QUOTE]


    The BW TRio was bland as ****. The writers completely effed up their characters this arc. Even now that they reverted back to themselves, I still don't like them this arc due to how awful their characterizations were for such a long time. I even prefer the DP TRio in the original to them, and that's saying something.

    Conversely, in the dub's case, and I hate to say this, it was an improvement for them, because they actually had to use dialogue actual human beings use as opposed to:

    Jessie: "We're pilfering a bunch of primo Pokemon for the boss!"

    James: "Too true, and they were too pooped to pop!"

    Meowth: "Dig it! Thing has a nice ring to it!"

    I swear, I can't even actually understand what they are saying most of the time in the TPCi dub. The recast of the VAs only makes things worse for the comedic TRio in their case.
    Updated 23rd May 2013 at 09:03 PM by Pokémon Master Ash
  20. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Brock and Team Rocket both should have left back when AG ended.

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