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Do you consider yourself to be a Feminist? Serious Blog.

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by , 16th April 2013 at 01:58 PM (4932 Views)
Lately I've begun to definitely take an interest in Feminism, in a way to help curb some of my past misogynistic traits and ignorance of my own privilege in being a white male. I was never heavily misogynistic or anything like that, but you know, I was the typical angry, "nice guy" sexually-frustrated high school male with a victim complex that sometimes blamed women's rights and feminism for my problems. Thankfully, this was before Reddit and such, so I never found myself falling into the nastier side of MRA (which I think really needs to examine its modus operandi and general belief structure and mission) communities or anything like that, thankfully. Sometimes I still have those feelings pop up, but you know, I think it's good that I feel guilt over thinking that way and seek to change it--it's a positive trait, in my opinion, to not be stubborn and open to change.

But yeah, I really like to get involved in discussions revolving feminism issues lately such as abortion rights, the "rape culture", casual racism and misogyny, patriarchy, gender roles, etc. I've found myself to be pretty good at debating Feminist issues in a few threads here and there, although I wish I was a bit more active outside of the Internet if I could get over some of my social fears and anxiety.

So, anyone else here consider themselves to be a Feminist? And, despite popular belief, you don't have to be a female to take in an interest in women's rights. And does anyone consider themselves to be a MRA - Men Right's Activist? I'd like to hear from people like that and try to understand where they're coming from.

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  1. はるひ's Avatar
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    I consider myself to be a Men's Right Advocate. But people often shame me for it just because I am a *girl* sticking up for the *men*. I used to dislike women a long long time ago. It mostly stemmed from what I saw around me. I saw them getting away with certian things no one should ever get away with. Also things like stalking laws and rape laws seem to be only for women in most cases, stalking laws are more so. If you are a man and a woman is harassing you, they are NOT going to take you seriously. But if you were a woman and a man was doing the same thing... they will help you.

    Same goes with domestic violence and shelters of that sort. And it's very sicking. I don't hate women anymore since I've grown from that but I consider myself an MRA because I want to help fight double standards. I don't hate women, but that is a general conclusion most feminists make about us and it makes me upset.

    We all go through problems. So yeah, that's my story. :[
  2. H-con's Avatar
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    my own privilege in being a white male
    Stop. Just stop. Any "white male privilege" is just a way for feminists to feel smug. It's not like it's anyone's fault that they were born they way they were, why should they bother with some moronic idea of "white male privilege" as long as they don't go around thinking they're superior to everyone (nor should they feel they're inferior to others, but that's besides the point). If anyone went around boasting of being better than anyone by the virtue of their birth, I wouldn't call them out on some made up "privilege", I'd call them out for being a drooling moron.

    Thankfully, this was before Reddit and such,
    What the fuck is this even supposed to mean? That you're unable to make up your own opinions? Please elaborate

    MRA - Men Right's Activist?
    Says a lot when men's rights activists are branded as a hate group. If you go looking through radical feminists, you'd find a fair bunch of good old hatred against men as well.

    Now, I'm not really a activist, but to say that women don't have quite a few advantages over men is being delusional at best. For instance, I had to serve one year in the army (or similar service if I happened to be a pacifist). I could object, and face jail-time, but this is a non-issue for women (except for those who choose willingly to serve). Is this fair towards men, we have to, while they don't? Moreover, men are discriminated against in court on numerous occasions. So yes, there's valid reasons as to why you'd want someone to actually consider men's rights as well.

    Take note, I have nothing against anyone based on simply things like gender. I do have a problem with people trying to make me feel bad simply for being a man, something I really didn't have a choice in.
    はるひ and Pokelova like this.
    Updated 16th April 2013 at 02:50 PM by H-con
  3. GliscorMan's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say that I'm a Femininist, but that doesn't mean that I don't support women's rights. I believe everyone should get treated equally under the law. Everyone. Doesn't matter what gender, sexuality, color, or religion someone has, to me. We're all equal, I just wish everyone else saw it that way.
    Bishie Karis-chan likes this.
  4. はるひ's Avatar
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    Says a lot when men's rights activists are branded as a hate group. If you go looking through radical feminists, you'd find a fair bunch of good old hatred against men as well.
    I like your whole post but I'll respond to this one.

    Exactly! But it's not just radicals who brand the MRA a hate group, it's the majority of the liberal groups who do. Like I understand that in modern times, most kids my age are liberal democrats but they all make a person feel bad just because they have a trait that the majority has. My only majority trait is that I am straight and people shame me for being proud of that trait. But that's besides the topic.

    The MRA is NOT a hate group. Women join the MRA as well. Basically what an MRA does is bring awareness about male/female double standards. I am on a forum about misandry and we do have stories about cases people don't see everyday.

    *steps off her soapbox*
  5. Garren's Avatar
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    I consider myself to be a Men's Right Advocate. But people often shame me for it just because I am a *girl* sticking up for the *men*. I used to dislike women a long long time ago. It mostly stemmed from what I saw around me. I saw them getting away with certian things no one should ever get away with. Also things like stalking laws and rape laws seem to be only for women in most cases, stalking laws are more so. If you are a man and a woman is harassing you, they are NOT going to take you seriously. But if you were a woman and a man was doing the same thing... they will help you.
    I swear you were a guy...like, I recall that coming up during that Rape Thread the other day. My mistake there, I guess.

    The thing is though, the reason such laws are not commonly levied against women isn't their fault, it's the fault of the patriarchal, American judicial system which still operates under the old-school notion that men are tough and can take care of themselves, while women are weak and innocent, thus women stalking men is never considered a viable threat because, in the mind of the patriarchy, men can easily take care of a female attacker.

    Same with the ideas of men being drafted and women being exempt, it wasn't women who put those laws into place, it was mainly men, along the same lines of the old patriarchal belief that women are weak and need protection. Also, the idea of women getting custody is also stemmed in patriarchy...women are seen as being better care-takers, thus they often get the children. And getting the children isn't a universally positive benefit either...it's hard work raising a kid, especially on your own.

    That's my main problem with attacks against Feminism and MRAs in general, all your arguments literally have nothing to do with feminism...those problems are entirely rooted in Patriarchy which actual Feminism seeks to eliminate and change. Thus Feminism can also be of benefit to males. The problem I have with MRA is the same problem I have with white supremacists and homophobes, mainly that they have this victim complex where "women/blacks/gays" rule society and are responsible for oppressing white heterosexual males even though white, straight males still make up the majority of the ruling power in Western society and it's ridiculous to think that all these laws and practices negatively affecting them are caused by minority groups.

    Stop. Just stop. Any "white male privilege" is just a way for feminists to feel smug. It's not like it's anyone's fault that they were born they way they were, why should they bother with some moronic idea of "white male privilege" as long as they don't go around thinking they're superior to everyone (nor should they feel they're inferior to others, but that's besides the point). If anyone went around boasting of being better than anyone by the virtue of their birth, I wouldn't call them out on some made up "privilege", I'd call them out for being a drooling moron.
    But it's true, white man historically have more rights, and there's nothing wrong with realizing that and feeling guilty about it to some extent. The problem was that I was ignorant of that fact, and instead felt victimized and held the idea that I was being oppressed for it when, in reality, as a white male I have a lot of things going for me.

    What the fuck is this even supposed to mean? That you're unable to make up your own opinions? Please elaborate
    As an average teenager susceptible to peer pressure, I'm glad that such an echo chamber of misguided MRA beliefs wasn't around when I held some of those beliefs?
  6. Karamazov's Avatar
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    Glad to hear that, dude! I also see myself as a feminist because feminism is, at heart, about equality. Feminism just gets a bad rap because many people misuse the term to justify bad behavior and intolerance.

    And I agree with H-con; don't let people make guilty for your gender, race or what kind of life you were born into. Yes, white men have had more right and have oppressed people in the past. Those people weren't you, and as long as you can acknowledge the past, you shouldn't let it get to you. And on a personal level, you realized your own errors and have overcome them. There's no need to feel guilty.
    Lugion likes this.
    Updated 16th April 2013 at 03:20 PM by Karamazov
  7. H-con's Avatar
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    But it's true, white man historically have more rights, and there's nothing wrong with realizing that and feeling guilty about it to some extent. The problem was that I was ignorant of that fact, and instead felt victimized and held the idea that I was being oppressed for it when, in reality, as a white male I have a lot of things going for me.
    Give me one good reason. Give me one good fucking reason as to why I should feel guilt for something that I had no choice. Go on, I dare you. I have not contributed to the oppression of women worldwide. I have never made legislation that limited womens choice in life. I have never looked down on a woman because she was just that, a woman. Now give me one good reason as to why I should feel guilt of anything.

    As an average teenager susceptible to peer pressure, I'm glad that such an echo chamber of misguided MRA beliefs wasn't around when I held some of those beliefs?
    Compared to what? Peer pressure of feminists? It works both ways, evidently.

    The thing is though, the reason such laws are not commonly levied against women isn't their fault, it's the fault of the patriarchal, American judicial system which still operates under the old-school notion that men are tough and can take care of themselves, while women are weak and innocent, thus women stalking men is never considered a viable threat because, in the mind of the patriarchy, men can easily take care of a female attacker.
    I ... what...

    So I guess it's okay that the legal system is biased against men in several ways. I don't see any major trends towards changing it now that women have a say in legislation. You're making excuses as to why women are abusing the legal system. Hardly gender equality at all when it favors one and not the other.

    Thus Feminism can also be of benefit to males
    Enabling a larger part of the human population to educate and contribute to society doesn't just benefit men, it benefits everyone. I hope that one day this will be the case.
  8. Gama's Avatar
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    @H-con;

    Certain things do confer privilege for reasons that are out of your control. If you are privileged as a result of things that are out of control, crucially things that work to the disadvantage of other people, you should recognise that. You needn't feel guilty because it's definitionally not your fault, but you should recognise the special place you hold in society, and maybe make some small efforts to ensure that your privilege is as little at the expense of others as possible. Most people are privileged in some ways and underprivileged in others (though frequently far more in one direction than the other). Recognising both will take you far. Perhaps you have not actively contributed to the situation at hand, but have you contributed to sorting it out? Has, perhaps your inactivity and ambivalence contributed towards sustaining it?

    Regarding the central issue of this blog, I do not identify as a feminist, but share the central views of most feminists. The reason for this is explained in your comments, @Tendou Soujirou; Before I explain further, I'd like to point out that of course there are crazy extremists in both ideologies, like there are in every ideology. That doesn't necessarily discredit them completely.

    Anyway, when people object to feminism on the grounds of it being men, the typical response is something like yours, Tendou. It's a reasonable one too. Here's my issue: feminists will typically say that feminism supports men too because the kind of gendered discrimination that men face is caused by the patriarchy, which is the very thing that feminists want to destroy. Fair enough. My issue is that the rhetoric of feminism rarely espouses this until the point where it is asked to defend itself. This is seen even in its name. I believe in the patriarchy and the general concerns of feminism, but I'm not a huge fan of feminism's approach to them.

    That said, there are many feminists that share almost exactly my view, which is that we should be tackling the patriarchy with a view to fixing the ways in which both genders (and anyone between or outside) are affected by it. I feel like the very name "feminism" and the central principle of feminism (which is ultimately the only thing that holds together the incredibly fractured ideology of feminism) identifies women as the overwhelming victims of the patriarchy and all too often implicates men as benefactors of it. The issue is that men and women are both hugely negatively impacted by the patriarchy (I think very plausibly women are affected worse, but I think the negative impact of it experienced by men is also considerable). I'm a man and even for completely selfish reasons I would much rather that the patriarchy did not exist. Additionally, I think an incredibly large number of the ways in which men and women are differently affected by the patriarchy are interlinked (the difficulties men typically face getting working conditions that are conducive to balancing a career with childcare and similar things contribute to the difficulties women typically face in getting higher pay and job opportunities, particularly when they reach the age where they expected to soon be having children).

    Although many people who do identify as feminists take the exact same approach as me, I would be reluctant to label myself a feminist because I believe at the core of feminism is an unhelpfully focused idea. That said, I support most feminist efforts.
    Karamazov and Cerberuswaltz like this.
  9. はるひ's Avatar
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    I swear you were a guy...like, I recall that coming up during that Rape Thread the other day. My mistake there, I guess.
    Everytime gender issues come up, people always assume I am a guy until I show them otherwise. It's okay :]

    My problem with feminism is that I feel that they don't represent me at all. I am a girl who is conservative and brought up with beliefs that the key to femininity is submission. ei: I think women should follow the husband and that is also a cultural beliefs as well. Feminism and their followers doesn't support those kinds of women. They shame them. :[

    I don't know about you, but I don't want to be shamed just for being submissive to whatever husband I have in the future.
  10. Garren's Avatar
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    I ... what...

    So I guess it's okay that the legal system is biased against men in several ways. I don't see any major trends towards changing it now that women have a say in legislation.
    I didn't say that, the point is the bias against men is simultaneously caused by men, and patriarchal ideas that Western Society was founded upon and continues to largely abide by. You do realize that a majority of people who make the laws still are white males, correct?

    Enabling a larger part of the human population to educate and contribute to society doesn't just benefit men, it benefits everyone. I hope that one day this will be the case.
    That's literally what I just said, Feminism can benefit women, obviously, and men. I don't get why you're trying to turn this around since, you know, men have historically been given way more opportunities to contribute to society (like being able to go to school and vote decades before women) than women have. Women are the ones who need to catch up in terms of equality, not the other way around.

    Give me one good reason. Give me one good fucking reason as to why I should feel guilt for something that I had no choice. Go on, I dare you. I have not contributed to the oppression of women worldwide. I have never made legislation that limited womens choice in life. I have never looked down on a woman because she was just that, a woman. Now give me one good reason as to why I should feel guilt of anything.
    Because you're given more opportunity based on who you are from the moment you are born if you belong to a certain group? And that I have a good feeling that you probably have looked down on a woman before, intentional or not, for being a woman?
  11. Gama's Avatar
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    Also, I would just like to point out that the legal system (of pretty much any country in the world) is not ridiculously in favour of women. Some are ridiculously in favour of men, almost exclusively, though I am guessing you aren't really talking about countries like that.

    In the countries you are talking about, both men and women are advantaged and disadvantaged by the system in different ways. If you want to start saying the legal system favours women over men, I suggest you start looking up rape statistics.
  12. はるひ's Avatar
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    Because you're given more opportunity based on who you are from the moment you are born if you belong to a certain group? And that I have a good feeling that you probably have looked down on a woman before, intentional or not, for being a woman?
    So people should be ashamed of being a while, straight, cisgendered man?
  13. Garren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi.
    Everytime gender issues come up, people always assume I am a guy until I show them otherwise. It's okay :]

    My problem with feminism is that I feel that they don't represent me at all. I am a girl who is conservative and brought up with beliefs that the key to femininity is submission. ei: I think women should follow the husband and that is also a cultural beliefs as well. Feminism and their followers doesn't support those kinds of women. They shame them. :[

    I don't know about you, but I don't want to be shamed just for being submissive to whatever husband I have in the future.
    No, I swear I remember you telling me you were a guy in a blog, I had thought you were a girl before then. But no matter.

    And, to be honest, I'm not sure how to respond to your example. I mean, I'm all for living your life the way to want to, yet at the same time I'm not really sure if I quite agree with your argument. Yes, it's your life to live the way you want it, but are you really living your life if you're completely submissive to whatever man you end up with simply because you were raised to act that way?
    Gama likes this.
  14. mariowie's Avatar
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    people should fight for equality no matter the sex, skin color, believe, nose lenght , whatever.

    In the current situation you have a bunch a females fighting for their rights, ultimately losing sight of what they want to achieve
    and that is equality.

    I will no argue the fact that woman are being threatened less than men, but feminism or mra? Are opposing forces who feed each other and will not lead to anything constructive. I there is a group that will fight and stand up for equality for all then
    we as a human race will get somewhere.

    But grouping people together is just easier I guess :|.
  15. はるひ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendou Soujirou
    No, I swear I remember you telling me you were a guy in a blog, I had thought you were a girl before then. But no matter.

    And, to be honest, I'm not sure how to respond to your example. I mean, I'm all for living your life the way to want to, yet at the same time I'm not really sure if I quite agree with your argument. Yes, it's your life to live the way you want it, but are you really living your life if you're completely submissive to whatever man you end up with simply because you were raised to act that way?
    I don't remember ever saying I was a guy since I do post pictures of myself; But no matter ^6;

    Well, I do believe that submissiveness will make me a better partner and a better woman as a whole. I was brought up that way, yes but not only just that, but because I respect men as a whole.
  16. Garren's Avatar
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    I think flat-out submissiveness isn't showing respect for the other individual though. It's kind of a phony type of respect, you're respecting them because you've been told to because of your gender, not because they've earned it.

    That's just my opinion, though. Some men probably like that kind of women, although I'm not sure if I'd say that's a positive aspect for a man to have either.
  17. Gama's Avatar
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    @mariowie;

    I definitely agree, but the group that most closely encompasses what you're saying (or at least the group that has members that most closely believe what you just said) is feminism. For you reasons, I'm reluctant to call myself feminist, but in their defence, they, in practice, very very rarely anti-men.
    @Haruhi.;

    I find ideas about what the "key to femininity" is, and what a woman should do very concerning. I don't think women should feel burdened to behave in a particular way because they are women. If you want to be submissive, that's obviously fine, many people are more comfortable behaving in that manner (and it is wrong when feminists attack or disapprove of women who make this choice as is an unfortunately frequent for the less pleasant members of that group), but you should not choose to behave in a particular way or subscribe to a particular moral code because of your gender and ideas about ideal behaviour for your gender. That is the very definition of patriarchy.
  18. H-con's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gama
    If you are privileged as a result of things that are out of control, crucially things that work to the disadvantage of other people, you should recognise that. You needn't feel guilty because it's definitionally not your fault, but you should recognise the special place you hold in society, and maybe make some small efforts to ensure that your privilege is as little at the expense of others as possible
    The point is that this privilege thing is taken to the absurd by some. I hate it, it's not my fault, I don't give a flying fuck. And I will have a problem with feminists that focus on this thing rather than focusing on the actual problems that certainly isn't solved with complaining about the patriarchy and white male privilege.

    I'm sorry if came out as very angry (nothing personal), but I'm just fed up with it. I just want to live my life without having things like this tacked onto it. I recognize womens problems, but I do want them to recognize ours as well. Most people don't bother with this in their day to day life, and realizing you're privileged or not have no bearing on it at all. It doesn't matter, and I don't believe it would change a thing.

    I didn't say that, the point is the bias against men is simultaneously caused by men, and patriarchal ideas that Western Society was founded upon and continues to largely abide by. You do realize that a majority of people who make the laws still are white males, correct?
    And I'm not happy with how things are right now? Is that a problem? Besides, it becomes a problem when women takes advantage of this and still cry foul. Having a focus on men's rights in these cases could bridge that gap.

    Also, stereotypically, men are more expendable than women. Not really hard to realize why, but still wrong. You can't say that this is not at least somewhat present in today's society.

    I don't get why you're trying to turn this around since, you know, men have historically been given way more opportunities to contribute to society (like being able to go to school and vote decades before women) than women have. Women are the ones who need to catch up in terms of equality, not the other way around.
    I'm not, it's just that a lot of feminists have a completely wrong focus. To say that women are being denied education and work en masse (discrimination and sexism still happen, but things have changed very much in a few decades) in the west. This is not a problem anymore. A lot of things women can do now, would be unheard of 100-200 years ago. The problem is not women's role in western society in this regard, nor should we act as it is.

    Because you're given more opportunity based on who you are from the moment you are born if you belong to a certain group? And that I have a good feeling that you probably have looked down on a woman before, intentional or not, for being a woman?
    There is no guilt. If I should feel guilt for my birth, I might as well go kill myself now, because I don't want the guilt for all the bad things my ancestors did. The point is that such guilt is absurd, it's the same notion as original sin, why should I be responsible for the acts of others, when I had nothing to do with it (case, not being born)?

    I mean, me and my male friends joke around. I do it with my female friends as well, and they joke back about males too. At the end of the day though, nobody thinks they're superior to others based on their gender, and by the way you're blatantly generalizing.

    not ridiculously in favour of women
    Never claimed that. I do however, hold by that in some fields, they have a clear advantage (and men in some). Point being, this is not really a thing we should want, but it's worth pointing out.


    As a side-note.
  19. Cerberuswaltz's Avatar
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    I think any subject like this is a rough one because people will either feel like they're being attacked, call out other injustices in the world to make the problem at hand seem minor, or ignore the fact the problem is a problem in the first place. Or, so I've noticed.

    I also think it depends on where and who you get your sources from- you can look at it, as an example, as a church. Some churches (*cough Wesboro Baptists cough*) are extreme and let themselves being known, setting a bad example for the groups in genreal, when there are other groups who come at it at a logical, fair point. Luckily I have met with some feminist groups that have explained to me and shown me a lot of things, numbers, facts that women are indeed oppressed; being treated differently in society then men are. You can argue this isnt' the fact with many women, but then again many women sometimes dont' care about their rights and would rather be modeled into what the media and society say is an "acceptable woman".

    Does this make me a feminist? No, it doesn't. I still have a potty mouth and use the words slut often (though not as you would think intended) with friends and such. It does, however, open my eyes and makes me want to work towards making things equal for everyone, no matter which way. So I take those steps but I know I'm not a feminist. I support them fully, though.

    And I'm done with the whole men's rights. Are men so scared of women being equal and not being the "inferior sex" any longer that they need to make their own rights, when men have had rights since the dawn of time? I don't think that allowing a woman to have control of her own body, whether she wants children or an abortion, should be a man's decision at all unless they are a couple and make those decisions together. Men are taught this way, as are women.
    But a woman's body should be hers no matter what, or, so I believe. And this is coming from a male himself who can admit these things instead of say that "I need my rights, too."

    I have seen people talk about this before, too, and about how they shouldn't feel guilty. And you shouldn't, but why should women feel guilty for their own views and want of equal rights when they didn't ask to be born a woman? To have to deal with birth control, odd bodies, child birth, being harassed often by men and the like? No one asks for it, but if you want to say you don't want to feel guilty, then don't expect others to do so, either, nor feel anything else but respect for their views.

    There was more I was going to say, but I think I forgot by now. Always a tricky subject.
    @Haruhi.; I see that you mentioned being conservative. There is nothing wrong with this at all, as I grew up one, too. Hell, my father is a preacher so you learn things from both sides. However, you must remember that in MOST conservative households (I am not directing this at you exactly) that is how things are. Women are taught their place is at home and that they are inferior and meant to serve their husbands all their lives. Well this isn't a bad thing always, and if the women is conscious and wants to, then that is fine. I've always fancied myself a stay at home guy and wouldn't want people telling me that I should be out "earning for my family". But I think that feminists are a little meaner (though not always) to women, even if it is their cultural belief (which is also up for a lot of debate), if they are in that because it still conforms to gender roles. You know what I mean? So, I can't say I full agree, nor disagree with your post, but I'm just coming from another view about this whole subject.
  20. CrackFox's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say so. I think men and women should be treated equally depending on the individual. For instance, i'm stronger than my brother, i've proven that on many occassions, therefore if we're ever carrying something heavy, I don't take offence if he asks me to carry it. There's a certain charm in feminism and believing that women should be treated a certain way my men, but it's very outdated and in the days of equality, i'm happy to be treated like everybody else.
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