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...this was my response to this blog post, where the hatred against users who criticize Iris was on display.

I think the point I'm making still stands: if you disagree with someone, you disagree with their ideas, with their opinions. Portray their point fairly, explain how you disagree (or agree but reach a different conclusion) with the contents of their posts and that way you can actually have a discussion. If you can't do that, then don't subject yourselves to these posts, put those users on your ignore list and be done with them.

Not everybody's going to agree, think the same, like the same things, want the same things in a show and that's okay. Acting like there's only one way to think and that everyone who doesn't share in that is crazy, irrational and provocative is straight up bullshit and contributes to the problem rather than help reach a solution.

people who can't get over the fact that the writers aren't devoting fifty bajillion episode to "character development"
See, I don't mind people criticizing the Iris critics, but if you're gonna do that, actually have the intellectual honesty to portray their arguments fairly. BW's pacing is actually one of the thing that has been received the best across the board throughout the series. People have praised the rhythm, have liked not having to wait forever between gyms and tournaments, etc. I haven't seen one person complaining that there aren't endless training episodes and fillers.

I think if you asked Iris critics, myself included, most of them would actually agree with you that oodles of on-screen training isn't essential to good storytelling and "character development". I'll take an example from a show that is the pinnacle of good writing: Xena: Warrior Princess. :P More specifically the character of Gabrielle. She starts out with no fighting skills whatsoever and ends up pretty much matching Xena in skills by the show's end. They showed her getting some basic staff training briefly in an episode, showed Xena teaching her things in passing here and there, but there was never a "Gabrielle spends the day training" episode cause that would have been crap. But it still felt very believable because there was a gradual progression throughout the show, among other developments with her character. Because that's what makes things believable: a sense of progression, showing the character getting better gradually over time. Most of the training criticisms were centered around Kibago, because that's the thing, you never got the sense that Kibago progressed throughout the show. It's consistently portrayed as being a totally inept crybaby who can't battle when put into a real battle, but gets random powerups when its convenient to and discarded afterwards. There's no sense of progress, of growth or anything, both on-screen and off-screen. That's what the criticism is for most Iris critics that I read in the Animé section, not the pacing or lack of episodes dedicated to training.

Iris' main crime in the eyes of the complainers is not being Misty/May/Dawn (whichever of the girls the complainer most favors).
Again, let's make blanket statements about Iris critics, a statement not actually backed by anything and that only serves to demean and discard everything they're saying as irrational and worthless instead of actually trying to understand and discuss the criticism. What you're trying to pull is a logical fallacy, attacking the character of a person making an argument to discredit the argument. There's a latin expression for that.

I liked Haruka and Hikari a lot. I think neither was perfect, I think each lacked what the other had in spades. Haruka was entertaining, Hikari was compelling and when both their sagas were over, I was actually glad to see them leave the show before they became stale and I got bored with them. I, and a lot of the Iris critics I've talked to, welcomed the idea of a female character that was different, that wasn't going to be Haruka 2.0 or Hikari 2.0 or Kasumi 2.0, and totally accepted that Iris' story was going to unfold differently, wasn't going to get as much focus, etc. The problem I see raised in posts criticizing Iris is how well that story is executed within those parameters, are the things unique to Iris working well for her character and the overall story, not about the lack of elements from past characters.

Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
I don't want to mention you-know-who again


were being a powerful trainer with powerful pokémon was somehow bad.
I don't even know what that's about. I see people who actually really like when Satoshi and other characters have evolved and powerful pokémon, because they usually capture them when they're small, battle with them, work with them, grow with them (which is the whole theme of the show) so that at the end of the day, a powerful trainer with a powerful pokémon is great because there's a sense that they worked and achieved this level as opposed to just have it be handed as a freebie at the most convenient time.

Oh no! Kibago learned a new move without training! Um, what? So Pokemon can only learn moves when it's not some real battle?
That's yet another logical fallacy. You're completely evacuating the context, trying to portray the Iris critics as wanting to establish a universal rule that will be true in every case, when that's again not the argument they're putting forward at all. Nobody ever said, "Pokémon should never ever learn a move mid-battle." People said, "That was cheap in this situation and only this situation because of the unique set of circumstance of what came before, how it unfolded, what it means for the character as a whole, etc."

Just accept that it happens off screen.
The writers could show us signs that it's happening off-screen with a general sense of progress in the characters. There's not, therefore I don't see why I should assume there's off-screen training from Iris.

That's where Musashi clearly did her Contest training in DP.
And we saw a slow and steady progression that was very believable. That's not the case here. That's what the criticism is, not that there isn't a lot of training episodes.


By the way, I think there's some valid criticism to be made about how myself and other Iris critics sometimes act. I think we sometimes, in preview threads, and that's something I've been guilty of, put too much emphasis on how crap Iris' storyline is, which it is, but sometimes to the detriment of the episode itself. Like in the BW092 thread, yes it's cheap, yes Iris never should have made it past the first round, yeah the writers can't seem to actually have a sense of accountability for the character, and yes it's going to be awful if Iris wins and just add to the bullshit that is her character but in all of that, we barely discussed the actual battle, what strategies could be used, how it'll look, what other matchups we might see in the episode, how would the other characters fare, etc.

That being said, one criticism you can't make about Iris critics is accuse them of hating fellow users. Personally, I find it boring when there's too much agreement. I like the debate, I like the argument and I treat other's arguments and responses with respect and humour, as do a lot of Iris critics. But when I see personal attacks being thrown around in reaction to opinions about a fictional character in a children's show, when I see fans of a character having a deep seething hatred for other users just because they respectfully express a negative opinion about the character completely within the rules, when I see blogs like this that just fuel the feud and enable users hating on other users, I think that tops everything in terms of ridiculousness. One thing that I am sick of seeing is everyone (both sides of the issue) playing the martyr card. The thing that I find the most ridiculous is seeing users who hate people who criticize their pet character, yet insist on subjecting themselves to these opinions just so they can complain about other users and how they're sick of their posts. If you don't want to read someone's posts or feel hurt, attack, angry, then there's a tool, it's called the ignore list, use it.

Simple as that.

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  1. Musashi's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion
    Well, the post was posted, it stayed up long enough to get three likes then magically disappeared while I wasn't on. Maybe it was a glitch... that only affected that one post... that must be it... :P
    You must be getting blogs mixed up. There was no comment.

    HellionPro tip: If you don't want to start a debate, then don't start a debate. Simple as that.
    I wasn't starting a debate. Evil Figment's blog was to rant, not to debate.
  2. Garren's Avatar
    I dunno, I think Hellion and Shinneth are correct.

    Evil Figment at one point literally goes
    Keep your conspiracy theories to your own freaking blog, user whose comment I just deleted. Your nonsense is already painful enough on the forum without having to endure it on my own blog too.
    That sounds like he deleted Hellion's post to me.
  3. Karamazov's Avatar
    That wasn't Hellion. The comment came from a different user.
  4. Evil Figment's Avatar
    This is the specific comment I deleted. I stand by that; it was conspirational nonsense of the first magnitude not even worth debunking.

    It's the only comment I deleted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghetsis Dennis
    I have a personal reason to hate Iris. It's not mostly because of how poorly written she is as a character; it's because of the fact that she ruined the chances of having any of the popular/more deserving female trainers to appear in the upcoming Super Smash Bros. for the Wii U and 3DS by simply co-starring in the anime rather than Gen V's female lead (like May in Gen III and Dawn in Gen IV). You see, the Pokemon series get their reps in SSB based on their popularity from the anime in Japan (it's how Jigglypuff and Lucario got in the game in the first place, and Red looked similar to Ash since his design was based off of Red), and if Iris' popularity is higher than the other existing female leads in the anime, she'll have the best chance at appearing in SSB thus ruining my experience with the crossover fighting game. I'll explain in more details in one of my future blogs by the time the Iris vs. Dawn episode airs a few weeks from now, unless you want me to explain more of it now.
  5. Musashi's Avatar
    I'd like to see the screenshot of this comment.
  6. Shinneth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi
    @Shinneth; You must be getting blogs mixed up. There was never a comment.
    Well, these screencaps (really hope that link works; Photobucket was shrinking the pics) say otherwise. The only thing screencapped was his comment, but note the tab reads "The ridiculous", as in the blog's title, "The ridiculous hatred against Iris". Also noteworthy is the different time in which the comment was posted, which is not the same as this post's. It says "Today" because the tab was not refreshed from the night before, obviously. :P

    I'm quite certain I'm not getting blogs mixed up.

    Edit: actually, I just now noticed the URL is in these screencaps, so there's no room for doubt that this was on that particular blog post.
    Updated 18th July 2012 at 10:45 PM by Shinneth
  7. Evil Figment's Avatar
    Why delete that when I could have reported it to just about any admin and gotten Hellion infracted (flaming and baiting) for it?

    That first part (which I note he did NOT repost in this blog) would have gotten him in deep trouble with just about any moderator.
  8. Garren's Avatar
    But he added a ":P" to the end of them so he was just joking though. :P
  9. Sweet Veil's Avatar
    Are you being sarcastic? Being serious and asking, not trying to sound rude ^^;;
    Updated 18th July 2012 at 11:25 PM by Sweet Veil
  10. Garren's Avatar
    I'm just saying that posting a flame like that (although I don't think it's that mean myself) and adding a "silly" face at the end just seems a bit passive-aggressive and intellectually dishonest myself. Like, you wanna say something mean, but you have to add a goofy face at the end because you're afraid of just speaking your mind, but I think personally the ":P" just makes it ruder.
  11. Evil Figment's Avatar
    But he added a ":P" to the end of them so he was just joking though. :P
    Adding ":p" is not a free card to say whatever you want in public on the forums (including the blogs and social group).

    Never was, never will be.
  12. Satoshi-kun's Avatar
    Now, this is weird. I just did some checking and there is no deleted comment in the blog. Now, if it was "hard deleted," it wouldn't show anyway, so I did a quick peek through the admin log to see if it showed anything, and it shows no blog comments being deleted there either.

    Now, the only thing that I can say is that this could be a bug in the blog system. I know of a few cases in the past that have happened to some users, and have happened to me personally, where I (or someone else) will make a comment on someone's blog, and it will suddenly disappear later in the day. The blog's author, when asked, says that they deleted nothing, and there is no deletion mentioned in the admin log either. It just disappears into thin air. Makes no sense why it happens, but I'm also not a programmer, so I can't pinpoint what is going wrong with the blog side of our forum software. I am guessing that this is what happened to your original comment on Evil Figment's blog.
  13. Iteru's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena
    Although I will say there are some definite racist remarks I've seen aimed at Iris' design...not flat out "n-word", but I remember someone calling her a "barbarian" basically. That's a pretty racially-charged word to aim at a ten-year old girl, even if she is a "wild child".
    If you see anyone making racist comments about a character please report it. That's a case where targetting a character is unacceptable as it has very obvious thoughts to other users in the process. That will definitely help us out to delete the post/VM/comment and infract accordingly as quickly as we can.

    I said I think the fact that female characters in fandom tend to have the most heated discussions around them (and it's true, don't pretend it isn't) probably has some root in misogyny, or sexism to make it less charged. And I mean on BOTH sides. They're compared far more than their male counterparts (sure, we have Brock vs. Cilan debates, but it's never as vicious) and often held up to various standards I don't see applied for the male characters.
    Personally I think this is because there's simply more interest and more competition with the girls. There's 4 of them, all at least notable characters in the games who tend to be the 2nd most focused travelling companion every saga. Compare to Brock and Cilan who don't have as much focus generally, and also with Brock getting so many years on the cast. He wasn't really taken away without any notice, he had around 13 years and enough time had passed for what seemed like a lot of people wanting him to be written out. You don't really get that with the girls in my opinion. When one subset is around for a limited time and has been more interchangable then you're likely to want to give more of an investment in them when they're around.

    I think it also doesn't help that the general Pokémon fandom is pretty young and (teens) and not really the best example of maturity. I'll take the whole racist thing earlier. I've seen people claim others of being racist because they don't like a character's development or feel there isn't any. I think that just makes our fandom look terrible.
  14. Musashi's Avatar
    The comment has been returned.
  15. Evil Figment's Avatar
    FYI: accordign to Zhen Lin, our techy type, the glitch is essentially an issue involving (at least) apostrophes in user name and liking posts.

    Yes, in this case exactly the user-name-with-an-apostrophe you're thinking of.

    (Zhen Lin fixed the code issue that caused apostrophes to cause such bugs)
  16. Hellion's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi
    I wasn't starting a debate. Evil Figment's blog was to rant, not to debate.
    So you're complaining about a group of users because of a wrong and flawed perception of what their argument is, then you're arguing against what you think they're saying. You're debating already. The least you can do is to be open to clear any misconceptions about the people you're complaining about, which there were aplenty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment
    Why delete that when I could have reported it to just about any admin and gotten Hellion infracted (flaming and baiting) for it?

    That first part (which I note he did NOT repost in this blog) would have gotten him in deep trouble with just about any moderator.
    For what exactly? Saying that you were wrong about your perception of the Iris critics? Saying that misconception came from you not watching the Pokémon Animé, not being part of its fandom and rarely if ever reading the posts in the Animé Section? That the blog complaining about the hatred towards a fictional character actually derailed in the comments about hatred towards other users? Apparantly, mocking other users and all but calling them ridiculous haters is only acceptable from staff members.
  17. Musashi's Avatar
    @Hellion; Why is this such a big deal? It's just a children's anime. Not worth getting so worked up.

    Now leave Figgy alone and just drop this. You're the only one doing the attacking.
  18. $aturn¥oshi's Avatar
    No more bickering in the blogs. This topic is DONE.
  19. Caseydia's Avatar
    Hellion, I liked how you adding Claire Huxtable in there like that. I agree with somewhat of what you're saying. I like certain characters myself. And yes, I am a fan girl for some of them. But I've noticed that all characters have things that needs work on and I know what they are. I just don't want people to say that just because others hate my character that they should be kicked off the air. I don't like Iris but I won't say she needs to leave. The writers can make her go when they are ready. But that's their decision not ours. For example, I love Ash but there is a ton wrong with him and I know and voice that. Doesn't mean he needs to leave. So does the other characters but I think people all need to be respected of their characters. People should also be opened to critism because it's not to you but it's to a character on screen. I wish people wouldn't get so angry and offended by fake children anime characters. This should go for Cilan and Misty fans as well. I sometimes see you write rants to fans and I just sit back and watch. It gets crazy sometimes and I wonder if people can be opened to see how the writing in this series is affecting their character.
    Updated 4th October 2012 at 03:50 PM by Caseydia
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