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Hellion

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...this was my response to this blog post, where the hatred against users who criticize Iris was on display.

I think the point I'm making still stands: if you disagree with someone, you disagree with their ideas, with their opinions. Portray their point fairly, explain how you disagree (or agree but reach a different conclusion) with the contents of their posts and that way you can actually have a discussion. If you can't do that, then don't subject yourselves to these posts, put those users on your ignore list and be done with them.

Not everybody's going to agree, think the same, like the same things, want the same things in a show and that's okay. Acting like there's only one way to think and that everyone who doesn't share in that is crazy, irrational and provocative is straight up bullshit and contributes to the problem rather than help reach a solution.

people who can't get over the fact that the writers aren't devoting fifty bajillion episode to "character development"
See, I don't mind people criticizing the Iris critics, but if you're gonna do that, actually have the intellectual honesty to portray their arguments fairly. BW's pacing is actually one of the thing that has been received the best across the board throughout the series. People have praised the rhythm, have liked not having to wait forever between gyms and tournaments, etc. I haven't seen one person complaining that there aren't endless training episodes and fillers.

I think if you asked Iris critics, myself included, most of them would actually agree with you that oodles of on-screen training isn't essential to good storytelling and "character development". I'll take an example from a show that is the pinnacle of good writing: Xena: Warrior Princess. :P More specifically the character of Gabrielle. She starts out with no fighting skills whatsoever and ends up pretty much matching Xena in skills by the show's end. They showed her getting some basic staff training briefly in an episode, showed Xena teaching her things in passing here and there, but there was never a "Gabrielle spends the day training" episode cause that would have been crap. But it still felt very believable because there was a gradual progression throughout the show, among other developments with her character. Because that's what makes things believable: a sense of progression, showing the character getting better gradually over time. Most of the training criticisms were centered around Kibago, because that's the thing, you never got the sense that Kibago progressed throughout the show. It's consistently portrayed as being a totally inept crybaby who can't battle when put into a real battle, but gets random powerups when its convenient to and discarded afterwards. There's no sense of progress, of growth or anything, both on-screen and off-screen. That's what the criticism is for most Iris critics that I read in the Animé section, not the pacing or lack of episodes dedicated to training.

Iris' main crime in the eyes of the complainers is not being Misty/May/Dawn (whichever of the girls the complainer most favors).
Again, let's make blanket statements about Iris critics, a statement not actually backed by anything and that only serves to demean and discard everything they're saying as irrational and worthless instead of actually trying to understand and discuss the criticism. What you're trying to pull is a logical fallacy, attacking the character of a person making an argument to discredit the argument. There's a latin expression for that.

I liked Haruka and Hikari a lot. I think neither was perfect, I think each lacked what the other had in spades. Haruka was entertaining, Hikari was compelling and when both their sagas were over, I was actually glad to see them leave the show before they became stale and I got bored with them. I, and a lot of the Iris critics I've talked to, welcomed the idea of a female character that was different, that wasn't going to be Haruka 2.0 or Hikari 2.0 or Kasumi 2.0, and totally accepted that Iris' story was going to unfold differently, wasn't going to get as much focus, etc. The problem I see raised in posts criticizing Iris is how well that story is executed within those parameters, are the things unique to Iris working well for her character and the overall story, not about the lack of elements from past characters.

Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
I don't want to mention you-know-who again


:P

were being a powerful trainer with powerful pokémon was somehow bad.
I don't even know what that's about. I see people who actually really like when Satoshi and other characters have evolved and powerful pokémon, because they usually capture them when they're small, battle with them, work with them, grow with them (which is the whole theme of the show) so that at the end of the day, a powerful trainer with a powerful pokémon is great because there's a sense that they worked and achieved this level as opposed to just have it be handed as a freebie at the most convenient time.

Oh no! Kibago learned a new move without training! Um, what? So Pokemon can only learn moves when it's not some real battle?
That's yet another logical fallacy. You're completely evacuating the context, trying to portray the Iris critics as wanting to establish a universal rule that will be true in every case, when that's again not the argument they're putting forward at all. Nobody ever said, "Pokémon should never ever learn a move mid-battle." People said, "That was cheap in this situation and only this situation because of the unique set of circumstance of what came before, how it unfolded, what it means for the character as a whole, etc."

Just accept that it happens off screen.
The writers could show us signs that it's happening off-screen with a general sense of progress in the characters. There's not, therefore I don't see why I should assume there's off-screen training from Iris.

That's where Musashi clearly did her Contest training in DP.
And we saw a slow and steady progression that was very believable. That's not the case here. That's what the criticism is, not that there isn't a lot of training episodes.

----

By the way, I think there's some valid criticism to be made about how myself and other Iris critics sometimes act. I think we sometimes, in preview threads, and that's something I've been guilty of, put too much emphasis on how crap Iris' storyline is, which it is, but sometimes to the detriment of the episode itself. Like in the BW092 thread, yes it's cheap, yes Iris never should have made it past the first round, yeah the writers can't seem to actually have a sense of accountability for the character, and yes it's going to be awful if Iris wins and just add to the bullshit that is her character but in all of that, we barely discussed the actual battle, what strategies could be used, how it'll look, what other matchups we might see in the episode, how would the other characters fare, etc.

That being said, one criticism you can't make about Iris critics is accuse them of hating fellow users. Personally, I find it boring when there's too much agreement. I like the debate, I like the argument and I treat other's arguments and responses with respect and humour, as do a lot of Iris critics. But when I see personal attacks being thrown around in reaction to opinions about a fictional character in a children's show, when I see fans of a character having a deep seething hatred for other users just because they respectfully express a negative opinion about the character completely within the rules, when I see blogs like this that just fuel the feud and enable users hating on other users, I think that tops everything in terms of ridiculousness. One thing that I am sick of seeing is everyone (both sides of the issue) playing the martyr card. The thing that I find the most ridiculous is seeing users who hate people who criticize their pet character, yet insist on subjecting themselves to these opinions just so they can complain about other users and how they're sick of their posts. If you don't want to read someone's posts or feel hurt, attack, angry, then there's a tool, it's called the ignore list, use it.

Simple as that.

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  1. Trainer Gabriel's Avatar
    Honestly, I'm glad you saved that reply (or most of it, at least); it was the best explanation I've seen for us Iris critics to those who take our "hatred" for the character way out of context. I felt as though you got cheated when that post got deleted.
  2. System Error's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel
    Honestly, I'm glad you saved that reply (or most of it, at least); it was the best explanation I've seen for us Iris critics to those who take our "hatred" for the character way out of context. I felt as though you got cheated when that post got deleted.
    It was deleted?

    You could always try calling mod/admin abuse, as I really don't see any reason as to why it should have been removed. Maybe the last paragraph was too epic a callout for some to handle.
  3. Winterdaze's Avatar
    Okay, so first off I should state that I'm not an Iris fan. I enjoy her character sometimes, but overall she just isn't a big deal to me.

    I think the problem that needs to be addressed is that the forums aren't here to just cater to one group of people (for example, those that want to debate characters) and the topics they wish to discuss. A key issue on display in Evil Figment's blog was not hatred against Iris critics, but the fact that people watch the show for different reasons. While a lot of people follow the show for it's storyline and character development, just as many people don't. I think the complaints about Iris' progression and random power-ups are mostly legitimate and well reasoned, but frankly I just couldn't care less.
    The biggest gripe I have with Iris critics is their tendency to centralise discussions around themselves; I've lost count of the number of times an upcoming review thread has been consumed by yet another Iris debate, and I just end thinking "fuck it" and don't post. I know for a fact there are a number of other users who do the same. A lot of the time these discussions aren't even particularly substantial, but users just repeating the opinions they've stated multiple times in the past in other threads over and over again (there's a Latin term for that too :P). You'd be surprised how many times I've seen the maligned Don Battle tournament brought up in preview threads that have nothing to do with tournaments. Because you can't just ignore what constitutes up to 80% of the posts in some of these threads, it's not "simple as that". It's frustrating for people who just want to talk about this animated fantasy children's show without being caught up in the tenets of its mediocre-at-best storytelling.
    I'm not saying people should withhold their opinions on how the story is handled if that is the part of the show that interests them, but rather to think how they might affect the discussion before diving into a long rant, and whether they've already stated their point elsewhere.
    Updated 18th July 2012 at 02:03 AM by Winterdaze (how do i grammar)
  4. Yoshi-san's Avatar
    Winterdaze hit the nail over the head.

    I recall I posted a comment about this on one of Shinneth's blogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshi-san
    IMO constant negativity in a fandom can ruin it in my eyes. If the only place that I can have "intelligent" discussion about a show I love is constantly negative, and I only have good things to say, I feel I won't be noticed or no one would care about how I feel about the matter.

    Negativity is everywhere yes, however too much can be a downer on those who want to focus on the positives. Yeah yeah fanclubs and all that but most of the time either fan clubs are mostly dead or all about complaining about the negativity.
    I believe it's still relevant.
  5. CommanderPigg's Avatar
    Okay, I'm at a bit of a conflict with this situation because I have sympathy for both sides.

    But I'm more readily willing to support criticisms of those actually actively watching the anime and are somewhat engaged in the fandom, just saying.

    That being said, I don't think that anyone should be withheld from saying their opinions, no matter how repetitive they may seem, as long as they aren't breaking the rules (I mean seriously, I might as well just copy and paste all my Paul-gasms, they're so frequent and annoying XD). But at the same time, we're all in this fandom hopefully to be entertained...either by arguing or joking around or just simply watching and fangirling.

    I made a blog a looong time ago on the issue of Misty threads in the anime forums and how many people were being hurt that their favorite character was being bashed and how a lot of threads often derailed into a clusterfuck of criticisms and wank over her.

    I just think that...if you don't support the opinion of another user, just accept it, (or) refute it, (and/or) move on. Same for both sides. Because when you start hating PEOPLE over a cartoon, it becomes problematic. It may not seem like it at times because I'm an asshole, but I really do care about the anime forums and I just want everyone to get along and eat some cupcakes or something.

    I'm sad that a lot of people who wish to side step these debates in a peaceful manner are shoo'd off the threads. Please don't do that. I want the debaters and the "entertainees" to co-exist. Make a coalition, be charismatic. Trust me, people will follow. (Either that or just...get a tumblr XD)

    tl;dr - why can't we be franz
  6. Shinneth's Avatar
    I liked your comment enough to actually screencap it all (since I had left the tab open overnight before it got deleted) just in case you didn't save it all yourself. Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of the blog (and a great deal of the comments) was other than to needlessly exaggerate the issue and make a lot of innocent people look bad just for speaking their mind (by also vastly exaggerating what has been said). We already have enough people who have actually watched this series and the preceding ones trying to cause shitstorms for a fictional character's sake; there's just really no way to take that one to heart at all.

    I'm not even gonna get into how many comments contained bad or irrelevant analogies, glorified opinions passed off as facts, Freudian bullshit (that I don't believe applies to ANYONE who dislikes Iris), the whining about passing judgment on events that have not yet happened (if people have something against that, they just need to avoid the preview topics altogether, as that's part of why they exist to begin with :P), or assuming we have highly unrealistic expectations.

    How much complaining is "too much" complaining will always be a subjective sort of thing, and but obviously it hasn't happened to a point that any mod or admin has felt the need to step in to put an end to it. VERY few times was it ever considered off-topic (which only required one or two mod reminders at best from what I recall), and even fewer times has it been grounds for infraction, usually based on the (much more serious) notion that the discussion started targeting actual users rather than the character herself.

    If people want to discuss something other than the Iris factor in an episode, maybe rather than complaining about it, there should be efforts made to strike up a discussion about another element of the episode. Don't be so quick to give up because you're afraid you'll be ignored or have been ignored in the past; if you really put all of your effort into the topic - your heart and soul and all that junk - people will see that and be more inclined to pick up on it. Trying to start another topic just because you're tired of the current topic isn't likely to work and people will see right through it. If at first you don't succeed, try try again... but only if you have the inspiration to do so. Forcing it out won't help anyone and it'll just come off as a wasted effort. It's rather unfair to judge BW090/092 on these merits because Iris vs Georgia and Iris vs Dawn are literally the only things we know for sure about these episodes (besides the Caitlin/Cynthia exhibition match, but I feel there's only so much that can be said against an exhibition match of an E4 and Cynthia, since we've seen plenty of those in the past :P); most other details that can be confirmed are minor and everything else, we just don't have enough information to go by to carry on a big discussion. One thing I know that keeps me wanting to discuss Iris (besides venting PMS or general IRL anger) is that the story elements surrounding her make for more interesting topics, mostly because there's proof in earlier series that the writers can do better than what they're doing now. :P And I don't think it's unreasonable to want the writers to maintain the level of quality that I felt was excellent, for the most part, during the AG and DP series. It's sort of a baffling mystery how (in my opinion at least) the writing quality has generally been steadily improving since the end of Johto until the end of DP - then, all of a sudden, for no apparent reason, it's taken a nosedive. For similar reasons, that what makes the subject of Iris a more interesting one to talk about, because even by previous sidekick standards she feels like a major step down for me. As time goes on and they pull stunts like giving her a Dragonite right before a major tournament and throwing her main rival under the bus just so she can have a win she doesn't need (and likely doesn't deserve), the direction of the writing more and more resembles a preteen's first fanfic... and yet the writing staff has not changed. Tis an enigma!

    Of course, I know you know this stuff already, brosef. :P This is just what I'd be saying if I didn't feel that my comment would end up having the same fate as yours in that post.
    Updated 17th July 2012 at 09:24 PM by Shinneth
  7. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    I find this incredibly amusing because these Iris "arguments" aren't even a big deal. Some people don't like the way she's being handled, who cares?

    She's only 1 of 4 female protagonists, and if the 5th gen really does end in 2013 she has but a year left in the anime. Its obvious not every female protagonist will appeal to everyone.
  8. Garren's Avatar
    I think avoiding any anime thread with "Misty/May/Dawn/Iris" in the title is a rule to live by.

    They ALWAYS, ALWAYS turn out bad.

    (but really, female character discussions always seem to heat-up the most in any fandom I've seen...some kind of misogyny at the core?)
  9. Musashi's Avatar
    Nothing was deleted. Not sure what you guys are talking about.

    @Hellion; If you're going to reply to people's quotes, you could at least say who said what. I wasn't trying to say anything about Iris critics, so please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't post that to debate, so stop trying to start one.
  10. Tsutarja's Avatar
    This constant negativity and bashing doesn't only happen in Iris threads. Even when the episode doesn't revolve around her, someone always finds a way to call her out on something, like Debbie Downer, when she reacts snarkily, for example. Even when there's a justification for her reactions, people are like - nope, still Debbie Downer. Why? Well it's obvious, we hate Iris.

    And I also believe Yoshi-san and Winterdaze put it the best - the amount of negativity and overall pessimism in that thread is incredibly high, some people just feel repelled by it, some are even afraid to post - some simply don't want to get caught up in your negativity. You have to understand that your ridiculous amount of negativity is making anime forums a not very comfortable place to post in - especially if it's a thread crowded with people who dislike Iris immensely.

    How is an Iris fan supposed to feel in there?

    I get it, like Shinneth already told me in one of my blogs, it's not an Iris fan club.

    But it's not an Iris hate club either. -.-
  11. Iteru's Avatar
    Anime isn't a user hate club. That's my main opinion on the matter xD
  12. Shinneth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    I get it, like Shinneth already told me in one of my blogs, it's not an Iris fan club.

    But it's not an Iris hate club either. -.-
    How quaint that you reference to a comment of mine that you deleted (along with the whole blog post) before I had a chance to respond. :P I basically would've said what Iteru just said. Well, that and you're blowing the "Iris hate" way out of proportion. The forums are not a club, period. Not an Iris fan club, not an Iris hate club, and most importantly, definitely not a user hate club. I'd really like to understand how you and others are so repulsed by any criticism of Iris, yet have no problem bashing actual real life people ad nauseum.

    Bulbagarden is not a forum partial to either side of the spectrum; it's for everyone. If there is a notable amount of Iris criticism, it's there for a reason. And honestly, this is something you have to accept for a place that treats everyone equally. I'm repulsed by how overwhelmingly negative and unfair TV Tropes is to Paul (and that is a MUCH bigger social hub than this forum), especially when the information and tropes they give him are huge exaggerations or blatant lies. But despite that, I'm not inclined to go incite a revolution over there to change everyone's mind or make them feel bad for believing what they believe, or even to change what's been posted about him. I suck it up, move on, and enjoy the rest of the site. It doesn't matter how widespread it allegedly is; it can be balanced out, but that requires honest effort without alienating people. Iris fans are not a minority. Her fanbase may not be in the leagues of Misty/May/Dawn's, but it's not like she's in the leagues of Casey or Ritchie.

    These forums are a place for everyone to freely express what they feel about the show in any way they'd like, so long as it isn't targeting any real-life people. Just because there's an exceptional amount of negativity for one particular character does not make it a "hate club". And really, Iris is far from the only thing myself and others dislike greatly in the current series - but the fact that she is one of the three main human characters and is thus going to be in every episode whether we like it or not undoubtedly plays into why she's criticized to such an extent. Again, this is something we have to accept. How we deal with it is nobody's business (again, unless real-life people are targeted). To put limitations on how often we say something negative is stifling our freedom. And like several users have said before, the forums would be a boring place if everyone had the same opinion about everything.

    The sooner this is truly understood, the sooner this gets resolved. Iris fans have an open floor to speak their mind just as much as the non-fans do. There are limits, but that is strictly related to the wellbeing of the actual members of the forum.

    Important life lesson all should keep in mind: Iris, like everyone in the anime, is a fictional character made of digital lines and paint. She cannot feel anyone's love or hatred, because she is not real. Therefore the concept of being "unfair to Iris" is a statistical and literal impossibility from every possible perspective. :P
    Updated 18th July 2012 at 09:11 AM by Shinneth
  13. TeddiUrsa's Avatar
    Putting someone on a ignore list isn't always possible, sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterdaze
    The biggest gripe I have with Iris critics is their tendency to centralise discussions around themselves; I've lost count of the number of times an upcoming review thread has been consumed by yet another Iris debate, and I just end thinking "fuck it" and don't post. I know for a fact there are a number of other users who do the same. A lot of the time these discussions aren't even particularly substantial, but users just repeating the opinions they've stated multiple times in the past in other threads over and over again (there's a Latin term for that too :P).
    I can't agree more. This is part of the reason why posting in the anime forums isn't nearly as fun as it used to be.
    Updated 18th July 2012 at 11:47 AM by TeddiUrsa
  14. Garren's Avatar
    Putting someone on a ignore list isn't always possible, sadly.
    Are you saying that there's someone here in a position of power that had a posting style that wasn't memorable, didn't make you feel anything, wasn't relatable, and their personality chip was always turned off?

    Because, well, that's just an ad hominen attack!
  15. Hellion's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterdaze
    I think the complaints about Iris' progression and random power-ups are mostly legitimate and well reasoned, but frankly I just couldn't care less.

    I'm not saying people should withhold their opinions on how the story is handled if that is the part of the show that interests them, but rather to think how they might affect the discussion before diving into a long rant, and whether they've already stated their point elsewhere.
    I agree with mostly everything you posted in your response, but I would add some nuance. I can perfectly understand your point of view that too much negativity can be frustrating and that there needs to be some branching out of topics, especially in preview threads, and that Iris debates could be more centralized in the Iris debate thread instead, so that the preview thread are more welcoming for people who don't want.

    That being said, when you say "80% of the posts" (that it reaches that level is more the exception than the norm by the way) in a thread are negative towards a character, often times, it's because that's the information we have about the episode, and preview threads are designed to do just that, discuss and speculate about upcoming episodes based on the information we have. Sure the BW092 thread is negative towards Iris because the only information we have is the title and that Iris makes it past the first round, beating Georgia in a questionable victory. So, of course that's gonna monopolize the discussion. Second, that 80% isn't a monolithic bloc of people who all think alike and say the same thing. It's made up of individual users acting individually expressing their individual opinion. There are nuances in opinion since some of the negative comments actually come from fans of the character, from people who are lukewarm about it, liked the idea of but were disappointed by it, etc. While you can't ignore 80% of the posts in a thread, you can look at the posters, figure who you feel is an irredeemable user in your eyes, who gets under your skin and makes you angry, and act on that by putting them on your ignore list. If you think a thread is derailing, report it to moderators. Lead by example, post positive things, act the way you would like others to act and they'll respond.

    That's the thing. The negativity might not be in your control, but how you react to it is. I think if more people said what you said in the above quote or just, "I respectfully disagree with you, to me Iris is entertaining and interesting, and I don't mind this element. I'm even glad it's happening, because I love Iris no matter what," then this general feeling of tension and negativity would greatly diminish, because when you cross that line and start hating and mocking and demeaning people just because they disagree with you, then you're part of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena
    some kind of misogyny
    *facepalms* Criticizing Iris is not sexism, or racism. Male characters (Satoshi, Paul) have been just as criticized or (like Kenny) reviled by the fandom. Same goes for Team Rocket or certain Pokémon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi
    Nothing was deleted. Not sure what you guys are talking about.
    Well, the post was posted, it stayed up long enough to get three likes then magically disappeared while I wasn't on. Maybe it was a glitch... that only affected that one post... that must be it... :P

    If you're going to reply to people's quotes, you could at least say who said what.
    I did that the first time around (maybe that's what caused the glitch XD), but I didn't want to bother you guys with two notifications for the same post.

    I wasn't trying to say anything about Iris critics, so please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't post that to debate, so stop trying to start one.
    As the pinnacle of wisdom Judge Judy once said, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining." XD Pro tip: If you don't want to start a debate, then don't start a debate. Simple as that. But if you're going to criticize a chunk of users's opinion, misrepresenting it in the process, and try to present an argument as to why that opinion is wrong... then yeah, I don't think you should marvel at the fact that people would challenge your point and want to rectify your misconceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    This constant negativity and bashing doesn't only happen in Iris threads. Even when the episode doesn't revolve around her, someone always finds a way to call her out on something, like Debbie Downer, when she reacts snarkily, for example. Even when there's a justification for her reactions, people are like - nope, still Debbie Downer. Why? Well it's obvious, we hate Iris.
    In those three lines, you have actually proved my entire point. Congrats!

    First off, constant negativity? Constant? As in every preview thread? Sure, let's go. Let's look at last episode, an episode that focused on Iris for the most part. Not one negative things said in there, most people, myself included, actually looked forward to seeing her in the episode and looked forward to what appeared to be funny interactions between Hikari and her. Most of the preview threads that don't revolve around Iris make very little mention of her, and half of those that do, like BW066 or BW082 are generally favorable to Iris. And for review threads, in most of the BW043-BW084 threads make little or no mention of her when she's not the focus and there was even praise from Iris critics of the Raimon arc and the Homika gym for how Iris seemed to gel more with other characters. The review thread for the most part reflected that, with a few people who didn't like Hikari using Iris' catchphrase but generally liked the rest of the episode. The preview thread before that, next to no one mentions Iris. After the Don Battle tournament, there aren't that many preview threads where you would find a lot of Iris negativity and the ones where there is, generally revolve around Iris' story which a lot of the people on this forum feel is being mishandled. People give credit where they feel credit is due. To some people, it's 100% of the time, to some it's half, to some it's 5%, but I haven't seen anyone be negative about Iris 100% of the time. Not everyone is gonna see things the way you do, not everyone is gonna share your tastes, but I think most people in the Animé section have given a chance to this character and have no problem saying when they actually thought it worked in an episode.

    Secondly, you're making the association that a criticism of Iris means that the person making it is an irrational hater whose point is therefore worthless. See, someone posts an opinion about an episode, "Wow, that scene was really entertaining until Iris came in and killed the mood the way Rachel Dratch's Debbie Downer did it on SNL. That was boring." That's a legitimate opinion, the person isn't targeting you, isn't trying to anger you, isn't trying to piss you off, but just likes different things than you. Instead of treating the opinion with respect, and that doesn't mean agreeing with it, you're making it about the person making the argument instead. You're choosing to get angry and hate someone because they said a tongue-in-cheek comment about a children's cartoon character.

    How is an Iris fan supposed to feel in there?
    If you like Iris no matter what, then what does it matter what other people think? Ignore them, Move on, Reply if you feel like it, but hating people because they don't like your pet character is just adding to the problem and the tension, rather than solve it. How you react to that negativity is entirely on you. You chose to react to it by being antagonistic and going after people, attacking and insulting them. You know, when I see someone criticize Dent or Hikari, I don't say "Well all of you can just F--- off." I don't suppose they're trying to piss me off or that they're trying to get back at me for something I said about their pet character. If they are, then they're the haters, they're ridiculous, they're becoming the very thing they accuse me and others of being and that's their problem, but it won't change how I react to them. I'll debate their point, share my point of view and why I was or wasn't bothered by X situation. I'll stick to arguments and the topic at hand and leave the person in front of me out of it and if I can't or don't want to do that, I just ignore it, not even put it on my ignore list, I just don't bother with it. Simple as that.

    Bottom line, I think both sides of this issue need to bring some change to how they interact with one another with more respect and stop imagining that the other is out to get them. Disagreeing with someone, not sharing their love of a character, and expressing that disagreement is not disrespecting them. Work on solving the problem on your end before complaining ad nauseam about the other side. Again, that goes for both sides.
  16. Karamazov's Avatar
    I checked Figment's blog, and I couldn't find the comment. If a blog comment is deleted, I'd be able to see it.
  17. Garren's Avatar
    *facepalms* Criticizing Iris is not sexism, or racism. Male characters (Satoshi, Paul) have been just as criticized or (like Kenny) reviled by the fandom. Same goes for Team Rocket or certain Pokémon.
    I didn't say that though. :/

    Although I will say there are some definite racist remarks I've seen aimed at Iris' design...not flat out "n-word", but I remember someone calling her a "barbarian" basically. That's a pretty racially-charged word to aim at a ten-year old girl, even if she is a "wild child".

    I said I think the fact that female characters in fandom tend to have the most heated discussions around them (and it's true, don't pretend it isn't) probably has some root in misogyny, or sexism to make it less charged. And I mean on BOTH sides. They're compared far more than their male counterparts (sure, we have Brock vs. Cilan debates, but it's never as vicious) and often held up to various standards I don't see applied for the male characters.
  18. Sweet Veil's Avatar
    Speaking of which.

    Still not understanding the argument that those that are indifferent or like Iris go after and hate and bash other members. While I'm not completely free of this sin(This was done like a year ago apologizes were attempted to be given) neither are some of the Iris criticizers. I'm not going after or attacking anyone for hating on Iris, nor threatening them. I'm just stating how I feel about the matter. In review threads I will say that a certain user or group said so and so about this but, I'm not attacking them or trying to chastise them. Just stating how one thing contradicts the other in these arguments, just the same way as many Iris criticizers do.

    Also, even though I haven't done so, the hating people part. Please remember and keep in mind. It works both ways. Not that I'm calling anyone a hypocrite.
    Updated 18th July 2012 at 10:15 PM by Sweet Veil
  19. Shinneth's Avatar
    @Karamazov I screencapped the blog comment, as I left the tab open overnight well before it was deleted. It was definitely posted... so if it wasn't deleted, what happened to it?
  20. Musashi's Avatar
    @Shinneth; You must be getting blogs mixed up. There was never a comment.
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