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Evil Figment

The ridiculous hatred against Iris

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by , 14th July 2012 at 01:37 AM (4171 Views)
Frankly, from reading around, all the complaints about how Iris "doesn't work toward her goals" sounds like people who can't get over the fact that the writers aren't devoting fifty bajillion episode to "character development" (in bracket because decent character development is the results of the events of the main plot, and happen concurrently with them, not something you put the main plot on hold for, and (generally) not the main plot itself. IE, not something you devote an episode to).

...BECAUSE THEY DECIDED TO WRITE A STORY THAT'S NOT BULLCRAP MOVING AT A FREAKING SNAIL PACE (see: everything between Kanto and BW.).

The sort of character development these people are looking for is just a slightly more sophisticated form of filler, ie a way for the writers to take three or four years to tell a story they could tell in one or two.

Could be wrong about the anime itself; three generations of the aforesaid snail-paced bullcrap have first driven me out then killed any interest I might ever have had in going back in (yes, your lauded DP did that, because it was still snail-paced). Even if BW actually sound like watchable.

Am definitely certain a very large number of Iris haters would write horribly neverending stories and think that's proper storytelling.

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Updated 14th July 2012 at 01:50 AM by Evil Figment

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  1. Evil Figment's Avatar
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    The idea that an all powerful trainer cannot be developed shows a very sad lack of imagination when it comes to storytelling.
  2. Musashi's Avatar
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    The ridiculous thing is this silly notion that Iris is somehow powerful and gets all these wins without training. Oh no! Kibago learned a new move without training! Um, what? So Pokemon can only learn moves when it's not some real battle? If it's only get to a win I can understand, but what was wrong with Kibago learning something when battling Shirona? That was more of a training battle, and it sure as fuck made no difference to the outcome, so what do people want?

    Training more is not happening. For anyway. BW is too fast paced to waste time of that. Just accept that it happens off screen. That's where Musashi clearly did her Contest training in DP. We barely saw it but it was referenced that it happened. Did I like that we didn't see it? No, not really, but I didn't expect the writers to really devote time to the Rockets training their Pokemon. And in a fast paced series like BW, no one should accept seeing lots of training for side kick characters either.

    I'm not going to bothering speculating on Kairyu because the damn thing hasn't even appeared yet. All it is is this year's Lizardon, so I don't get the problem. I don't care if it's some pseudo-lengendary in the games. It should be treated the same as Hikari's Manmoo.
  3. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment
    The idea that an all powerful trainer cannot be developed shows a very sad lack of imagination when it comes to storytelling.
    If this was any other series I'd agree with you but the Pokemon writers seem to only be able to develop one type of character archetype correctly and that's the clueless beginner role.

    As much as I like Cilan, I know good and well he'll wind up as stagnant as Brock became if they keep him for another generation.

    This is why it's better for Ash to have new travel companions every saga, it's one of the few things that keeps he show fresh. It's something Johto could have benefited too.

    Also I think a lot of the bias against Iris is because she came directly after Dawn who was handled much differently.
  4. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    If this was any other series I'd agree with you but the Pokemon writers seem to only be able to develop one type of character archetype correctly and that's the clueless beginner role.

    As much as I like Cilan, I know good and well he'll wind up as stagnant as Brock became if they keep him for another generation.

    This is why it's better for Ash to have new travel companions every saga, it's one of the few things that keeps he show fresh. It's something Johto could have benefited too.

    Also I think a lot of the bias against Iris is because she came directly after Dawn who was handled much differently.
    Not true, Misty started of as somewhat experienced and knowledgeable trainer and while it wasn't enough she got some believable and good development becoming more independent. Dawn started of as overly confident and too sure in herself learning harder way how good name isn't enough to make you succeed. Etc.

    Brock could have been definitely developed more, but writers never really expanded on his breeder career or introduce much flaws to begin with to allow for more significant growth showing to be mistake eventually.

    Iris being portrayed as powerful trainers doesn't mean nothing, because there are always new directions through which she could advance forward , new problems which writers could introduce on her way etc being more exciting for audience to watch experienced trainer going on bigger things for change instead of seeing same old song and dance with done to death cliched route of "someone starting as complete clueless rookie becoming more experienced eventually. We saw enough of those with Iris thank God breaking that pattern.

    As for Cilan does it really matter how long he will stay? As long writers do new things and support his stay with good writing there is no reason for him to end up neglected. Even if he becomes stale, again with good writing and fixing mistakes he can be again interesting. Beside "stale or not"is very subjective varying from person to person.

    Since i know Johto would have been brought up. Johto was perfectly fine in using same characters to do sequel on stories, problem was in plots like GS ball being dropped, too many fillers being included and insufficient amount of character development(although that changed in Master Quest)which drove people away.
    Most fans supported original trio,.

    In order to keep show fresh you don't need new character swiping real core of problem under the carpet. What you need is better storyline, better paced sagas and more variety when it comes to development of characters . Ton of anime out there don't change cast and they remain fresh. How? Because they do build up on story of already existing characters gaining new, fresh aspects to them.
    Something which is possible to establish in pokemon if writers ever reuse older companions again.
  5. Chiplet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    Although admittedly that Dragonite capture came in extremely rushed and poorly planned way not helping her Axew growth much at all.
    How do you know that? Really, we barely know anything yet, right? People have been speculating from the information given, but we can't for sure state that Dragonite will only bring Axew's development down to the bottom, considering that we do not know how Iris' way of training and bonding with Dragonite will influence on the relationship she has with Axew.

    Both Axew and Dragonite are Dragon-types, and as far as we all know, Axew is still not that very powerful. That's where Dragonite's role comes in, to help Axew grow. This capture might prove to be beneficial for both Axew and Iris. For Iris in the way of helping her connect to one more powerful Dragon-type, as well as helping her to learn more about bonding and controlling it, which surely will prove to come with hardships due to it previously not to have had a trainer before (or maybe it has, we don't know). And for Axew, Dragonite might prove to become some kind of mentor/big brother for him, and might help him grow, train and as well to help him learn some new moves.
  6. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet
    How do you know that? Really, we barely know anything yet, right? People have been speculating from the information given, but we can't for sure state that Dragonite will only bring Axew's development down to the bottom, considering that we do not know how Iris' way of training and bonding with Dragonite will influence on the relationship she has with Axew.

    Both Axew and Dragonite are Dragon-types, and as far as we all know, Axew is still not that very powerful. That's where Dragonite's role comes in, to help Axew grow. This capture might prove to be beneficial for both Axew and Iris. For Iris in the way of helping her connect to one more powerful Dragon-type, as well as helping her to learn more about bonding and controlling it, which surely will prove to come with hardships due to it previously not to have had a trainer before (or maybe it has, we don't know). And for Axew, Dragonite might prove to become some kind of mentor/big brother for him, and might help him grow, train and as well to help him learn some new moves.
    It doesn't change fact that she received it with no build up before that capturing it just one episode before tournament though. That seems pretty rushed to me and given how she will use Dragonite through whole Junior Cup without relying on other pokemon despite being disobedient from what we know so far, doesn't make it seem that Axew is going to receive any spotlight in here. Now that's not to say how Dragonite capture and issue Iris need to deal with wont help Axew to benefit from it in future, nor i ever denied that. But im working with present and what we know so far.
  7. Bubble Frog's Avatar
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    I don't care what anyone says, Excadrill deserved to kick Pikachu's ass. Pikachu is my favorite Pokemon and I'm a big fan of him. But, there was no way in hell Excadrill was gonna lose Pikachu without some extreme DEM bullshit. Outrage, yeah Outrage. The move that hasn't been used in 50 episodes? People are still complaining about it. Pretty much retconned and gotten rid of, so what's the problem? I really don't see the problem, Outrage only got Axew one win and hasn't been used since. Problem? What is it? "Emolga gets over obedience issues"? Too bad Emolga never actually had any obedience issues. Emolga is "lazy" "laziness" is a characteristic, not a super-flaw that needs development, Emolga is just a Pokemon that chooses to battle when she wants. Fast-forward to BW2. Axew learns Giga Impact against Garchomp? I don't see the problem, it didn't change anything and Garchomp and Axew were in a training match. Learning a move in a "training" match is the aim of Cynthia and Iris' battle. Again, problem? This same thing happened with Ash's Scraggy. BW has already established that it has its training off-screen anyway. Look at the Onix episode, you see Iris training her Excadrill and Axew before the episode begins. We just aren't having episode-upon-episode focused on training like we did in DP. Like that awful Dawn Contest Ice-Chandelier School filler, "Teaching the Student Teacher".

    Dragonite, Dragonite. I don't even give a damn about speculating about it anymore since my post get ignored anyway and no one actually wants to discuss it, at least here. In a nutshell basically, the thing is basically the new Charizard and we don't know the circumstances of the capture. All we know is Iris captures it and can't control it and it wins the first round of the World Tournament against Georgia's Beartic.

    "Psuedo-Legendary", is nothing but a made-up Poke-nerd term to give hype to Pokemon with BST Totals over 600. BST don't exist in the anime, they're just POKEMON. There's no such thing as a "Psuedo-Legendary".
  8. Phoenixphlare's Avatar
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    @Gotpika;

    Okay first one saying IIRC "BST totals" is redundant like ATM Machine. But from here on out I will address your points in order. Knock back the focus blast with Iron tail and use iron tail Akido boom! Not bullshit Pikachu wins they could have had Ash try use those techniques given how easy I thought of them. Second outrage still happened and still got a win you can't undo it like that. In my head it is still outrage level because IT WAS SHOWN USING OUTRAGE. The when writers spent time building up it's weakness and suddenly it stopped being weak it kinda fucks with brain. No a flaw that needs dev time? what about in the episode volt switch was introduced what about the fact that Iris didn't want to use it against Trip. What about for the fact that in the first BW movie it used volt switch and got disqualified wouldn't the same thing happened and if they showed it doesn't that kinda imply that that is something to be expected I expected it. Why did it happen one time and not the other WTF. They still the same thing as the outrage thing and they didn't show us a bunch of Axew battles of strongness in between the move so we never finished swallowing the idea of it being strong and doesn't the Giga impact negate the retconned outrage point. Dragonite uuum the anime build up psuedo lengendaries some what Giving Drake's dragonite all those moves ring a bell Salamence only being owned by Silver J and Drake and not really being defeat in match IIRC ringing a bell. The Metagross winnning the tournament and metagross taking on Ash's two best out of his six ring a bell so yeah it is different.
  9. Bubble Frog's Avatar
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    @Wyvernphlare; Pikachu losted and was at a type disadvantage. Sometimes type advantages in the anime coming into work and actually working is actually logical and that's that. Outrage, Outrage. Once it had happened. Let's compare that to Scraggy's newly learned Hi Jump Kick and how he OHKO'd a fully-evolved Flying-type. Emolga had no problem battling under Iris' order against Pignite and then Minccino, she chose to leave when she got tired. Iris chose not to battle Trip, not Emolga. I will give that in a practice or random battle she MIGHT be lazy, but in the clutch of an official battle, Emolga will come through for Iris. Even when begged to go up against a wild Simisear threatening to burn her and Snivy to ashes. Giga Impact was trained for, prob?

    That happens with all powerful Pokemon. Gyarados, Ursaring, ex. There's no such term as "Psuedo-Legendary" it is a nerd term for Pokemon fans, invented by Pokemon fans with zero connection to the franchise.

    So, I'm done because I'm not too keen on getting into a lengthy debate.
  10. Chiplet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    It doesn't change fact that she received it with no build up before that capturing it just one episode before tournament though.
    I don't remember saying that it would either. All I was saying is that it might prove to be beneficial for both Axew and Iris, which you doubted it would

    That seems pretty rushed to me and given how she will use Dragonite through whole Junior Cup without relying on other pokemon despite being disobedient from what we know so far
    Rushed, yes. But if she doesn't win the tournament, which I don't see happening, it won't actually be that bad, as Dragonite will surely bring forward development for Iris and Axew. And if you were to ask me, using a disobediant Pokémon in a tournament like this shows that Iris is rather courageous. She's willing to take a risk in order to bond with a Pokémon, while she could just have gone with the safe card and use Excadrill instead.

    doesn't make it seem that Axew is going to receive any spotlight in here.
    As long as Dragonite helps it in the future I'm alright with that.

    Now that's not to say how Dragonite capture and issue Iris need to deal with wont help Axew to benefit from it in future, nor i ever denied that. But im working with present and what we know so far
    You did kinda stay that it's not helping Axew grow at all, and yet you were saying that you're ''working'' with what we already have.
  11. Phoenixphlare's Avatar
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    @Gotpika; Still think the methods I outlined was an easy way to get around that and him not trying when he did things similar in past is bad story telling. That's bullshit to now that you mention it. That still a tad of a plot point, if Iris saw Emolga as unusable then the audience will see it as unusable. That tournament was no more official then the one in the movie and that movie negates your point of having no problem fighting. I explained the problem -_-. Not to the same extent.

    I respect that but then why did you reply BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE getting the last word and I have just as much of a right to get the last word then you do but out of respect I won't respond if you respond that fair?
  12. Musashi's Avatar
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    Cool it you guys. No need to get snippy over a children's cartoon.
    Caseydia likes this.
  13. Bikini Miltank's Avatar
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    To hear people complain, you'd think Axew had beaten Cynthia's Garchomp.
  14. Hidden Mew's Avatar
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    I'll be perfectly honest here. I am not upset at the quality of Iris' character because they aren't using a ton of episodes to focus on her. I wasn't really expecting her to get nearly as much attention as Dawn did because she doesn't have an active sidequest like Contests or Gyms. I thought that she would get a bit more focus than she has, but not a huge amount more. Still, the amount of screentime she gets for a sidekick character is fine for the most part. However, I truly don't think that she works for her accomplishments. Her conflicts thus far have been solved for her with little to no effort on her part. Axew learned to control Dragon Rage on its own, as I don't think that those practice matches really did much to help it out in that department, Excadrill listened to her again with one apology, despite all of the years of not listening to her and how Cilan had to point out the problem for her. and Emolga's attitude was resolved off-screen just so that she could advance through the first Club Battle tournament. It also annoys me that the series establishes all of these flaws for Iris right from the start and no one, aside from Georgia, calls her out on those flaws.

    It feels like instead of allowing Iris to grow as a result of her journey, her team gets power ups just to avoid working more on her character. The fact that she gets a Dragonite prior to the Junior Cup makes that pretty clear to me. I realize that it hasn't happened yet and there could be a valid reason for her to capture it, even though it feels like a stretch to me at the moment, but it seems rather cheap to hand her such a strong Pokemon when Axew is still pretty underdeveloped. I don't really see a reason to root for her when she pretty much everything she already needs to reach her goal. She already has the knowledge of Dragon Pokemon and the battle skills, despite how they weren't present at the start of the series. All she needs is to evolve Axew and it's rarely battles. She could have trained off-screen with Axew, but I find that rather hard to believe considering how its battles have gone and she certainly didn't work for Axew to learn Outrage or Giga Impact.

    Personally, I'm more of a fan of a slower-paced series rather than a fast-paced one. I think that faster-paced series tend to miss more opportuntieis with its stories and characters than slower-paced ones. That's not the case all the time, of course, but that's my personal preference. Even so, I understand that they couldn't have Iris train for episodes upon episodes. However, I think that they could more than show her battling Scraggy with Axew every now and then. Even just a few minutes in a few episodes could have worked. Using the tournaments to train could have worked, as I was generally okay that Jessie trained during her Contests in DP, if nearly all of her victories, except for maybe Excadrill vs. Pikachu, weren't cheap and undeserved. Even though I prefer a slower paced story for the most part, I don't think that it was necessary to have one in order to make Iris a better character and have better quality in the writing around her character. I think that even with the faster pace of BW, they could have made Iris a more compelling and interesting character by working on Axew, realizing that she needs to grow and mature along with Axew and actually doing more work on-screen to become a better trainer and a better person. Something like that could match with the faster pace of BW. However, I don't think that there's enough effort behind Iris' character, or enough likability in her personality for me at least, to make her work in either a slower or faster paced series.
    Updated 23rd July 2012 at 02:15 AM by Hidden Mew
  15. Caseydia's Avatar
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    I never really hate Iris for any of the reason in the topic. There is actually several things I liked about her. I'll even make a list.

    -She carries a dragon in her hair for crying out loud! That's the best thing ever!
    -Finally there is a girl on this show that is darked skinned and not some boy with his eyes closed.
    -Dragon master goal. Speaks for itself.
    -She's not a coordinator.
    -She's waering decent clothes. Pants for a change.
    -I like her voice.
    -Her being in the Don battles and such made her more active if they weren't there to compete in.

    Now there are a few things that needs work. For example, you can tell that the whole anime is rushed. And all of this talk about training off screen doesn't sit for me. Alot of people including me has gotten angry whenever Ash trains or does anything off screen so why can't Iris or Cilan be in that some boat? They only have a few Pokemon anyways. It's not like they have a bunch to take care of. If that was the case, then sure.

    Now this thing with Pikachu. Type disadvantages has been Ash's battle strategy focal point for years now. Now suddenly it matters in BW? That sounds odd. Yet somehow Dragonite and Serperior get passes for beating their type disadvantage opponents. There could have been a way for Pikachu to beat that mole. Whether if Pikachu would have learned a (fighting type) move or something, or would have figure out a way. I mean this is a Pikachu who took a Latios down for Christ's sake! Since we have pokemon learning stuff off screen I don't see why some can't learn it on screen like in a battle like that.

    Now let me make a disapproved list for Iris now.

    -I was hoping that a disobedient Zweilous or Druddigon would have been a better choice for her. I mean would it have killed them to do that?
    -What was wrong with a Dratini or Dragonair for the Junior Cup? Why such a Pokemon at that time? Something smaller would have proabably done okay.
    -Her Pokemon seemed forgotten lately. Training off screen is nice but when you haven't see one like Emonga seen battling, it gets fustrating. Then there is Axew. It's cute yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be powerful in more battles. Look at Pikachu and Piplup. They have been shown to be very active and they haven't evolved yet. So what's Axew's deal?
    -Attitude is also a big issue. Since we know Ash is in another region he knows little about, and he has been through alot before. I think it would have just better for me if they would have dropped the "such a kid" pun. It was okay at first but later on it was not necessary. I wish the writers wouldn't make gymleader/gymleader game-like girls like that.
    -Her hair is crazy. Yes, I know the others have strange hair too but is the buns are unnecessary? She's got pretty eyes and long hair, why not move them out the way and do justice for the girl?
    -This saga being rushed doesn't mean that things couldn't have been done better of Iris. Unless she will be champion once this saga is over, I don't think they need to throw everything and have her win so much at once. There is still so much she needs to learn.

    After all of this, I don't and never did hated her but I wish more was done for her own good.
    Updated 1st October 2012 at 11:52 AM by Caseydia
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