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Double standards about character development in fandom.

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by , 13th September 2012 at 03:05 AM (3771 Views)
Been awhile i posted blog, so i decided to make new one. Today im going to talk about double standards in pokemon fandom when it comes to character development.

We all know May and Ash are usually praised for apparently great character development they went through.Same goes for Dawn in story sense being viewed she got most fleshing out toward her dreams, although character wise she didn't changed much..

For Ash in general people view his maturity in Hoenn and Sinnoh as great step forward, welcoming when he was using more of his own head and taking mentor role to others while keeping some of his bratty side there.
Same applies to May , growing to like pokemon and deciding where she stands and what she wants to do in life.
But when Misty developed its a whole another story, with usual claims being how her change wasn't growth but "character derailment".

In here we can clearly see use of double standards. Because when May, Ash, Dawn or just about anyone else matured and personality changed they praised it like great growth which changed them for better. But when Misty matured apparently it wasn't development but "demolition of character".

Of course that doesn't go for everyone but lot of detractors tend to claim that describing maturity as "loss of personality" and "writers stopping to care".

Usual arguments:
1.
Regarding change in personality: " Misty stopped being so temperament not hitting people with objects like she did in Kanto, so therefore she lost character".

She didn't lost personality, she changed as character advancing forward. Its common knowledge how character can't stay exactly same like he was at start when he goes through development.

Didn't we also saw Ash becoming less reckless, impulsive and rash when maturing? Didn't we saw May became less ditzy and bubbly compared to start of pokemon series after she grew?

Just because character matured doesn't mean she lost personality,. It means she grew as person, with writers deciding to explore on various character sides doing build up from it to prevent stagnation and provide sense of going somewhere.
After maturing didn't we see Misty being full of competitive streak being all passionate about water types and battling,? Didn't we saw her being sarcastic having tendency to tease Ash and others about their mistakes, spunky and tomboyish being annoyed at others?
Wasn't she still deep romantic trying to pair other people which loved each other, being shy and embarrassed when others asking her on date(such as Georgio)etc? Wasn't she still hotheaded exploding if others provoke her(such as Ash, Daisy, Dorian etc)?

There was much more to Misty character than just hitting others and constantly yelling 24/7.

Whether you liked or not her character growth, doesn't change fact that she still had personality.

2.
Regarding argument how ."maturity=writers stopping to care".

If they stopped caring they wouldn't create Whirl Islands and water cup to expand on her water master career. They wouldn't focus on her past life explaining background and struggles she dealt with in childhood coming to appreciate friendship with Ash and Brock being noticeable how much she was attached to them by end of Johto.

They wouldn't focus on her issue of feeling less worthy toward sisters becoming more confident and proving herself to others like Dorian or helping others which had similar problems like Sakura.
They wouldn't focus on Misty learning how to cope with responsibility and get gym back on right track, to understand whats best for Togepi releasing it or trying to get over her longtime fear from Gyarados specie.

Seems like a lot of unnecessary work for writers to do, if they "didn't cared."
Whether people liked how Misty changed or not this was development and way writers intended to have her grow since very start.



Now if some didn't liked change i respect that and i like constructive criticism, but viewing others change as development, while denying same thing for other characters is use of double standards in reality.

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  1. Tsutarja's Avatar
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    I agree. I can't stand seeing people say 'Togepi destroyed Misty's personality' when in reality Togepi just brought out another, a gentler side of Misty and made her mature significantly.
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  2. HumanDawn's Avatar
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    Double standards are everywhere in this fandom.
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  3. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    I agree. I can't stand seeing people say 'Togepi destroyed Misty's personality' when in reality Togepi just brought out another, a gentler side of Misty and made her mature significantly.
    Not to mention, she was still hotheaded and snarky after maturing with writers providing nice balance between tomboyish and girly side focusing on her other traits beside temper(like romantic side coming on surface in OI, her sarcasm and love for battling in Johto etc).

    If anything it made Misty character more dimensional, having more to her than just one trait.
  4. Hellion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    In here we can clearly see use of double standards. Because when May, Ash, Dawn or just about anyone else matured and personality changed they praised it like great growth which changed them for better. But when Misty matured apparently it wasn't development but "demolition of character".
    Quote Originally Posted by Human
    Double standards are everywhere in this fandom.

    Waaaaaaaaaaah nobody likes my pet character as much as me... and everybody's so wrong to have their own opinion for only I holds the truth about my pet character and only I see the plenty of qualities that she had and how masterfully her story was written, and how she's the bestest fictional female character since Jane Austen' heroins and everybody else is just hating. This... again... *Kasumi's gone forever, so what's the point of trying to call double standard on people's opinion of a character that's, for all intents and purposes, dead and gone. First of all, bias, double standard, etc. You use these words without actually knowing what they mean. "Oh people liked Haruka and Hikari's development, but not Kasumi and Iris, BIAS!!!!!!" Bias is when you have different reaction to two completely identical situations, but Kasumi's character had a different role, different personality, evolved in a different way than Haruka and Hikari, and therefore it's not surprising to see two drastically different reactions.

    First off, Kasumi's sole purpose on the show originally was comedy. That's all she was there for and the writers didn't even bother giving her a goal until the Orange Island, and even then did nothing about it until Johto. She was just there to entertain and be comedic, which for the first part of Kanto, she did reasonably well. But then along came Togepi, which forced the comedic side to take a backseat in most episode. Sure, in some episodes, they still had Kasumi be funny or in 3-4 actually focused on her goal, but for the most part she drifted more and more to being just there in the background. Given that Kasumi's sole purpose of existing was to be comedic, that pretty much made her pointless in a lot of episodes. Of course there was a change in the character, but did it serve her or the story, not really.

    Compare and contrast with Haruka and Hikari's development. Haruka didn't like Pokémon and didn't have a clue about what she wanted to do, while Hikari had confidence issues, was afraid of never living up to her mother's achievements and had a flash over substance problem in contests. Both of them had clear definite hurdles in front of them that Kasumi didn't really have and they had a full-fledged story of their own, their growth was very noticeable and actually compelling, helped their story move forward.

    Different characters + Different storylines = Different reactions. It's pretty simple math. XD
    Updated 13th September 2012 at 10:35 AM by Karamazov (That image wasn't necessary)
  5. HumanDawn's Avatar
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    @Hellion;

    Um... what xD? I was mostly referring to those nostalgic first generations fans who bash the newer generations without giving them a proper chance. I mean, how can somebody form a logical and respectable opinion without doing so? An example of biased through double standards newer generation hate is when people bash Trubbish solely because of its pollution theme and saying the generation sucks because of it, when there were more Pokemon based on that theme in the first generation. I'm extremely sorry for not making myself clear. I don't know how you came to that conclusion, though. I'd only have a problem with you if you never gave Kasumi a chance. You clearly watched through Kanto, OI and Johto so I have no problem whatsoever with you not liking Kasumi's role in this show.
  6. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion

    Waaaaaaaaaaah nobody likes my pet character as much as me... and everybody's so wrong to have their own opinion for only I holds the truth about my pet character and only I see the plenty of qualities that she had and how masterfully her story was written, and how she's the bestest fictional female character since Jane Austen' heroins and everybody else is just hating. This... again... *Kasumi's gone forever, so what's the point of trying to call double standard on people's opinion of a character that's, for all intents and purposes, dead and gone. First of all, bias, double standard, etc. You use these words without actually knowing what they mean. "Oh people liked Haruka and Hikari's development, but not Kasumi and Iris, BIAS!!!!!!" Bias is when you have different reaction to two completely identical situations, but Kasumi's character had a different role, different personality, evolved in a different way than Haruka and Hikari, and therefore it's not surprising to see two drastically different reactions.
    There is difference between not liking way character developed and i respect that. But trying to portray other characters change like Ash, May or Dawns as growth which pushed thwm forward, while ignoring all growth Misty went through which helped her to become stronger trainer and person applying it to "derailment"is hypocrisy and use of double standards at its finest.

    First off, Kasumi's sole purpose on the show originally was comedy. That's all she was there for and the writers didn't even bother giving her a goal until the Orange Island, and even then did nothing about it until Johto. She was just there to entertain and be comedic, which for the first part of Kanto, she did reasonably well. But then along came Togepi, which forced the comedic side to take a backseat in most episode. Sure, in some episodes, they still had Kasumi be funny or in 3-4 actually focused on her goal, but for the most part she drifted more and more to being just there in the background. Given that Kasumi's sole purpose of existing was to be comedic, that pretty much made her pointless in a lot of episodes.
    Her purpose was more than that.Her purpose in original series was to be supporting character who acted like Ash coach/mentor helping him along with Brock to grow as trainer and person By acting like someone who would balance out Ash impulsiveness and naivety and Brock's obsession over girls with her spunky, and timid personality giving identity to group with her strong presence.

    Misty didn't had luxury to have fully fleshed out storyline like May or Dawn had, but by all means she did things providing humor and great chemistry between group, had several notable achievements and aside from battling did many other things which influenced plot in one way or another playing role of heroine in classic sense.

    Also its hard to believe how Togepi pushed her more in background, when she battled more,helpd more in Ash growth as trainer, had more focus, character development and involvement in this show in Orange Islands and Johto, than she had in Kanto. Its rather noticeable that she had more spotlight in second half of show, regardless of not receiving as much as she should had.
    How much she contributed to anime in first 40 Kanto episodes or so? Much less than she did later on, but some people obviously don't remember this or believe what they chosen to believe regardless if its true or not.

    Of course there was a change in the character, but did it serve her or the story, not really.
    There was more to Misty story than just pursuing water master career. Because of developing in character sense she was able to get over complex of inferiority compared to older sisters gaining their respect, and helping others with similar problems(such as Sakura who i addressed earlier on). Because of maturing she grew to appreciate friendship with Ash and others learning how to be more patient and levelheaded , learned how to cope better with responsibility which can be best noticed by end of Johto. When despite wanting to continue traveling she decided to out her dreams on hold and help sisters out in saving gym from shutting down.
    Improved her skills as trainer with top 8 in water Cup, winning Seaking contest, Alto Mare race and being recognized by other trainers like Dorian being testament to improvement she made since early days.

    Getting over childhood trauma like Gyarados helped her to move forward as water trainer and enrich her team, with this fear standing on her way of growing forward.

    Different characters + Different storylines = Different reactions. It's pretty simple math. XD
    Not liking how some character developed is one thing, but portraying maturity as "derailment which destroyed his personality" denying that it helped hiom to go forward. While describing change in other characters as positive thing which moved their story forward is double standards.
    Updated 13th September 2012 at 07:29 AM by pokemon fan 132
  7. Shinneth's Avatar
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    Times like this I think, "are there seriously people who have never been to the Pokemopolis site before?"... because even when I in jest say that Togepi sapped Misty of all her personality and made her sentient wallpaper, I get a very wordy lecture about saying such an apparently awful thing. Which just sucks the fun out of everything. Or when I talked about Misty's (lack of) fashion sense besides that yellow hoodie she sometimes wore in Chronicles; I get a lecture-like response that all boils down to two words: "I disagree". And after being on the forums as long as I have, getting to know a lot of users and their prefereneces, I feel I don't need to be constantly reminded that my sentiments are not felt mutually by certain others. -_- Even now when I on reflex put up some sort of caveat that I'm aware my opinions are only opinions and not the truth, I still get nagging replies that talk down to me as if I AM trying to pass my opinions off as fact even if I openly state that I don't.

    Iris actually made me appreciate Misty, but that still doesn't mean I like her. Some people are huge superfans of Misty or other characters and put in a lot of insight to their characters based on what the canon gives. I'm the same way with Paul. But every time I see someone say he was a dull character, that he was just an evil bully who treated everyone like crap (the latter part is the only one I butt in about because it's obvious plain as day that he does not treat EVERYONE like crap :P), or even worse in TV Tropes where they call him a VILLAIN SUE, Karma Houdini, and many other nasty tropes that I feel are overexaggerated or just plain untrue... well, despite all those inaccuracies, I don't feel the need to butt in and rant or lecture directly at the culprits about how wrong they are. I feel there's nothing to be gained in doing so; I'll only incur the wrath of more people for barging in on their community just to tell them they're wrong. :P

    But the important thing I keep in mind is that I try my best to not project my fanon/extension of canon of my favorite characters onto other people. There are lots of people who don't see what I see in Paul, just as not everyone bears the kind of insight into Dawn's character that @Hellion does. If you see a lot of depth and complexity and potential in Misty's charater, more power to you. But it's not cool to keep forcing that on everyone every single time the dreaded M-word pops up in any post, even if it's just a passing mention. There are plenty of people who don't care and aren't interested in an extended view of Misty's character.

    That's not to say I don't condone debating or discussions, but it's important to know when you're taking your love of fictional characters too far. And that applies to ALL fans of ANY character. :P Cries of double-standards, bias, haters gonna hate, all of that is because everyone has a different perception of every character. There's a difference between being misinformed about a character and just having an alternate, educated perception of a character. Most people on this forum fall under the second category. And the more people try to force in their specific view of a character to everyone who mentions their name, the more annoying it gets and the less people will be inclined to hear it out.

    I hear there's a great way to vent out all of the depth and insight a fan puts into a fictional character and make it into something people would wanna read and possibly affect their own perception of the character based on how good the writing is. I think it's called fanfiction.
    HumanDawn and Dragonfyre like this.
  8. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    To clear up any misunderstanding, im definitely not one of those fanboys which obsess over anime characters or this show with pokemon being nothing more than one of my spare time hobbies.

    But reason i decided to make this blog, is because im surprised by sheer ignorance of some people not knowing what character development is. Or are turning blind eye to it when it comes to some characters(like Misty)while at same time praising other characters which matured trying to pass it of as fact.
    You don't encounter such claims with any other character which changed and grew in this show, nor you see people saying for them how development=disappearance of persona traits.

    But with Misty any development she went through is discarded, with usual comments being "Togepi deprived her of personality", "she never did anything", "that wasn't maturity, but derailment"etc which is wrong on so many levels.

    Because Misty had plenty of personality with maturity not making character traits disappear(yes to everyone shock hitting others with objects was just one of many traits she had/has with temper never disappearing either, ). Aside from that she contributed to this show and developed which can be backed up with several facts and examples.

    It is easy to ignore something when it happens rarely and occasionally, but when you encounter false claims about certain characters on daily basis with detractors trying to force them out as some "universally accepted truth"than it starts to get annoying. If other side don't agree, its natural that this will lead to reply with discussions. Which is part of this forum after all with people having to defend their view, if they try to pass it of as legit and accurate claim.

    If someone didn't liked change in character or his development that's his opinion and he shouldn't be questioned because of that. But claiming how character A developed with maturity being indication of that, while denying same thing about character B which matured backing it up with blatant untruths is what i call hypocrisy.
    Updated 13th September 2012 at 09:52 AM by pokemon fan 132
  9. HumanDawn's Avatar
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    @Shinneth;

    I don't feel the need to butt in and rant or lecture directly at the culprits about how wrong they are. I feel there's nothing to be gained in doing so; I'll only incur the wrath of more people for barging in on their community just to tell them they're wrong. :P
    Which contradicts:

    Even now when I on reflex put up some sort of caveat that I'm aware my opinions are only opinions and not the truth, I still get nagging replies that talk down to me as if I AM trying to pass my opinions off as fact even if I openly state that I don't.
    So... You first say that your opinion on how Paul's tropes on TvTropes should be are fact... and then you later state you know that your opinion isn't the truth...

    Um... What xD? Oh and I've checked TvTropes. Paul isn't listed as a Villian Sue, so I don't know how you came up with that. I frequent the comments pages as well. I haven't seen a single soul call him one.

    Could you please explain and be more clear?
    Updated 13th September 2012 at 10:27 AM by HumanDawn
  10. CrackFox's Avatar
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    @Hellion Just what!? Dawn didn't change her attitude or her personality at all. She got stronger but there's nothing special about that, she's the same girl now she was from day one. Only difference is that she has some experience, her attitude remains the same and May's stint of not likeing Pokemon lasted about as long as Misty not liking Ash's Caterpie. I don't know how you have the face to mock 'obsessive' Misty fans when all you do in the anime section is moan about Iris because she replaced your favorite female. And one last thing, if discussing Misty's character is pointless because she's insignificant now, why do you bother writing a bible's worth of text in every thread/ blog about her?
  11. Karamazov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Human
    Um... What xD? Oh and I've checked TvTropes. Paul isn't listed as a Villian Sue, so I don't know how you came up with that. I frequent the comments pages as well. I haven't seen a single soul call him one.
    He has before there were YMMV pages. He's listed as Jerk Stu/Villain Stu on there. Not...not that I go on TVTropes. That place sucks and I hate it.

    And guys, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but remember to keep cool. Don't go around throwing accusations, don't "call people out." You can debate all you like, just remember not to use the debate as a way of insulting other people.
  12. HumanDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox
    when all you do in the anime section is moan about Iris because she replaced your favorite female.
    Even though I disagree with Hellion's strange and odd methods of debating, I must say that, like Karmazov has just said, that that was completely uncalled for.

    He has before there were YMMV pages. He's listed as Jerk Stu/Villain Stu on there.
    Yeah, and after some discussion was put in, it got removed. If Shinneth doesn't open her mouth or bother to put the correct tropes, how does she expect them to be changed? I guess she has a good point with how it's not beneficial to her.
    Updated 13th September 2012 at 12:20 PM by HumanDawn
  13. Shinneth's Avatar
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    Ugh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Human
    So... You first say that your opinion on how Paul's tropes on TvTropes should be are fact... and then you later state you know that your opinion isn't the truth...
    You're awfully quick to draw conclusions. Let's see what I wrote again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    I'll only incur the wrath of more people for barging in on their community just to tell them they're wrong. :P
    Uh, that's not me contradicting myself. That's me being hypothetical; if I had the inclinations of the casual fanatic who would do this. Because it kinda happens around forums like these (especially Serebii) all the time. I like to think I have more self-control than that.

    Some of these people on TV Tropes *still* refer to Paul as a Villain Sue, and this is in relation to a discussion about Iris. Pff.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox
    I don't know how you have the face to mock 'obsessive' Misty fans when all you do in the anime section is moan about Iris because she replaced your favorite female.
    Uhh... not only is that way out of line, but that's inaccurate. Anything Hellion holds against Iris is because of Iris herself and no one else. Dawn has nothing to do with it. Same goes for me and nearly everyone on this forum who doesn't like Iris. Seriously, I've not seen one person here being bitter over Iris because she replaced Dawn. I really wish that misconception would die off already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Human
    If Shinneth doesn't open her mouth or bother to put the correct tropes, how does she expect them to be changed?
    I never said I expected any changes. While it would be nice to see everyone treated evenly on TV Tropes, I know that's pretty much impossible, so I don't actually EXPECT anything to change in how TV Tropes portrays Paul. I wish it would change, but wishing for something and expecting something are different.
  14. HumanDawn's Avatar
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    @Shinneth;

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth
    Uh, that's not me contradicting myself. That's me being hypothetical; if I had the inclinations of the casual fanatic who would do this. Because it kinda happens around forums like these (especially Serebii) all the time. I like to think I have more self-control than that.
    But have you at least tried? If you kept on going for five days straight or on regular intervals, I'd agree on getting the fanatic status. But if you've never tried bothering to fix it then I see little reason to complain. Think there's a wrong trope? Try to fix it. People going against what you think is the correct trope? Try to debate with them a few times. You failed? Well, what can you do? It's extremely easy to ignore such people. If somebody is going up on your ass because you think that Misty isn't fashionable or something like that, just ignore it like how I do with all the Youtube comments bashing newer Pokemon. I tried reasoning sometimes with such people to calm them down for their sake, but when highly extremely offensive insults were thrown in behind my friggen back offsite I cried. I could ignore some small little indirect insult that is meant for the "lulz". But... ughhhhh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth
    Some of these people on TV Tropes *still* refer to Paul as a Villain Sue, and this is in relation to a discussion about Iris. Pff.
    That's odd. I remember reading that page a month ago. I think I missed it because I was skimming it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth
    Uhh... not only is that way out of line, but that's inaccurate. Anything Hellion holds against Iris is because of Iris herself and no one else. Dawn has nothing to do with it. Same goes for me and nearly everyone on this forum who doesn't like Iris. Seriously, I've not seen one person here being bitter over Iris because she replaced Dawn. I really wish that misconception would die off already.
    I agree with this. It must be because Hellion was getting on her nerves, and so with her anger, said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth
    I never said I expected any changes. While it would be nice to see everyone treated evenly on TV Tropes, I know that's pretty much impossible, so I don't actually EXPECT anything to change in how TV Tropes portrays Paul. I wish it would change, but wishing for something and expecting something are different.
    Then the best thing to do(unless you haven't already) is to let it go.
  15. Hellion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    Her purpose was more than that.
    Enlighten me.

    Her purpose in original series was to be supporting character who acted like Ash coach/mentor helping him along with Brock to grow as trainer and person By acting like someone who would balance out Ash impulsiveness and naivety and Brock's obsession over girls with her spunky, and timid personality giving identity to group with her strong presence.
    a.k.a. Comedy

    Misty didn't had luxury to have fully fleshed out storyline like May or Dawn had, but by all means she did things providing humor and great chemistry between group
    a.k.a. Comedy

    had several notable achievements
    Losing in the Whirl Cup... err... mmm... err... if you really stretch the definition of achievement, I guess a comedy episode like the Princess Festival does count... So that's pretty much three episodes. The other 270, just there for the comedy. And when she's not being funny for entire episodes (with or without Togepi) which makes her sentient wallpaper, that just makes her useless. The thing is they were going full on comedy with Kasumi early on then really really toned it down later on while not compensating on a regular sustained period with a solid storyline. That left a truck load of episodes where Kasumi was just there, so while there is a change in her character, it didn't actually serve any purpose.

    Not liking how some character developed is one thing, but portraying maturity as "derailment which destroyed his personality" denying that it helped hiom to go forward. While describing change in other characters as positive thing which moved their story forward is double standards.
    So wait, it's okay to not like how a character developed, but you can't then like how other characters developed, in a different way, cause that's a double standard even though the difference in reaction is based on the difference in how the storylines were constructed...

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    If someone didn't liked change in character or his development that's his opinion and he shouldn't be questioned because of that.
    Then this blog is for...

    But claiming how character A developed with maturity being indication of that, while denying same thing about character B which matured backing it up with blatant untruths is what i call hypocrisy.
    Characters develop in different way because they're different characters, they have different personalities, different roles on the show, go to different changes and interact with different Pokémon/characters... is it really so shocking to see different opinions on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox
    @Hellion Just what!? Dawn didn't change her attitude or her personality at all. She got stronger but there's nothing special about that, she's the same girl now she was from day one.
    I disagree with that, I know you and a lot of people have that opinion, but it's just that. An opinion, not worth more or less than mine. You just come at it from a different perspective than mine, have different tastes than I, like different characters which results in a different perspective. I make no martyrdom claims about how everyone who doesn't agree with me is biased nor do I feel the need to wage a Crusade to rehabilitate Hikari and make everyone share my opinion.
    @Karamazov; The image was so very necessary.
    Caseydia likes this.
  16. Shinneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Human
    Then the best thing to do(unless you haven't already) is to let it go.
    I have let it go... for like, ages, now. In fact there's really no point in dragging this particular thing out to the extent you have because I was using the TV Tropes' gross exaggeration of Paul as an example for how things could always be worse, yet I don't let things like that run my life and don't dedicate my rant fuel to how criminal it is to misinterpret Paul's character that way (which is sarcasm in case that wasn't obvious); unlike all this tl;dring because some people might misjudge Misty's character, or not give her enough credit, or make some assumptions, et cetera. This is why I don't sympathize with anyone who goes out of their way to whine about people who don't like/hate their favorite character. Pretty much every time it's just a case of needless drama because they can't handle people who think differently from them. And if not that, it's needless drama for being unable to resist lecturing people that one might think are misinformed when they could just be sarcasting/joking and couldn't care less about accuracy in the first place.

    Also backing up @Hellion that martyrdom and crusading is not the way to handle people who don't like/respect/whatever your favorite character(s). His point is actually what I was trying to make with my Paul on TV Tropes example. If I had actually tried to barge in there and make a giant, dramatic protest about some of the grossly exaggerated/inaccurate tropes he's been given (while certain other characters tropers have a hard-on for and turn a blind eye to any negative tropes that apply to them), that would basically be me leading some needlessly extravagant crusade for a fictional character. :P I don't like it when people crusade here, and the last thing I want to do is become what I despise.
    HumanDawn likes this.
  17. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion
    Enlighten me.
    Im pretty sure i already counted this things, so i don't really feel need to repeat it again.


    a.k.a. Comedy
    How is exactly serving as someone coach and mentor classified as comedy? You should really rewatch some of older episodes(even though it would be torture for you).

    There are several examples where Misty helped Ash to recover and grow as trainer, such as:Warning him bout type advantage like she did with Caterpie when he send it out against Pidgeotto, when he sent Phanphy against Pryce Dewgong,when she suggested what pokemon to use during Indigo league, in Blaines gym etc. Helping him along with Brock to come up with strategy in Whirl Cup or against trainers in Johto league such as Macy or Gary,.

    She often motivated him and pushed to go forward, when losing in Kanto league not allowing him to stay in room whole day to self pity himself, when she encouraged him in battle against Rudy in Orange Islands when he was in losing position, leading to Squirtle learning hydro pump and in many, many other instances.

    She always had certain rivalry with Ash often arguing each other to prove their point and trying to surpass themselves claiming to be better trainer than he was, with her remarks pushing him to try harder. This can be especially noticed whenever they battled each other, with things always being at high stake.

    a.k.a. Comedy
    Chemistry isn't only made of humor. She often helped Brock about romance issues having their small talks, she often supported Ash in moral sense giving him encouragement, served as evaluator and critic bringing voice of reason in group etc.

    Losing in the Whirl Cup... err... mmm... err... if you really stretch the definition of achievement, I guess a comedy episode like the Princess Festival does count... So that's pretty much three episodes. The other 270, just there for the comedy. And when she's not being funny for entire episodes (with or without Togepi) which makes her sentient wallpaper, that just makes her useless. The thing is they were going full on comedy with Kasumi early on then really really toned it down later on while not compensating on a regular sustained period with a solid storyline.
    Downplaying character achievements wont help your argument.

    She played more of classical heroine role than other girls did influencing more along with Brock Ash growth as trainer and always fighting for the weak helping them to stand up for themselves.
    Such as getting everyone out of sunk ship and coming up with plan to escape St. Anne, battled various trainers like Giselle at pokemon school, bridge bike gang , Marina which shared same dreams like she did, Andreas at Seaking contest showing she has big knowledge about fishing, air currents etc, Dorian, Sakura and her sister Sumomo and many, many others(im not even counting all those TR battles when she battled by herself or teamed up with Ash). She often helped others to build confidence and fight for themselves helping Mikey whose Eevee and him got teased by brothers, Sakura whose sisters were over protective not letting her to go on journey, Marcellus who had trouble with his Octillery etc. Often baited group out of danger such as, disguising herself to get Ash and Brock out of jail, ,managed to convince Tentacruel and Tentacuel from stopping to destroy town, get group out of forest thanks to befriending Hoot Hoot, saved people lives on several occasions(Ash twice, Tracey once, sister of gym leader Rudy, took care of sick Brock in Johto etc list goes on), .

    Entered various other competitions like pokemon race in Kanto which Ash won with Rapidash, tournament to get Togepi, Alto Mare race, battled gym leader, won Princess festival which played important part in her storyline giving us insight in why doll set is so important for her etc.

    Helped Ash to earn right to battle gym leaders solving puzzles from Blaine, giving him her water pokemon to help him out(like in fire distinguish competition from Johto), played often role of detective trying to solve mystery behind pookemon in breeding center run by Butch and Cassidy, trying to figure out mystery from Gligarman in JOhto, why Ninetales deceived Brock to decode to stay with him, mystery behind disappearance of pokemon in Orange Islands, mystery behind Snubull etc.

    She often acted like older sister to Ash warning him about dangers such as Tr traps warning him about their tricks, often hold him back when he got carried away bringing sense of realism into him, lifting up his spirit whenever he lost battle, often recognized Jessi and James under their disguises stopping Ash from falling in disaster etc.

    She was strong ad independent female which didn't took bull from anyone, helped others to believe in themselves and follow their dreams, didn't cared what others think being herself serving as good role model and providing zealous and balanced interaction between characters.

    Her story and role only increased with time, gaining bigger marketing value ever since she got Togepi since it foreshadowed release of new games.
    Trying to portray receive of egg pokemon as "bad thing"makes such argument moot, when she was much more active and influenced plot more often, battled more and received more development in Orange Islands and Johto than she did in Kanto.

    That left a truck load of episodes where Kasumi was just there, so while there is a change in her character, it didn't actually serve any purpose.
    Except it helped her to build self confidence not feeling inferior to sisters anymore, helped her to become more open toward others growing to appreciate Ash and Brock friendship viewing them as new family which made her more levelheaded and tolerant allowing to better cope with responsibility. It helped her to grow in stronger trainer and get over childhood trauma etc.

    So i say it definitely served purpose.

    So wait, it's okay to not like how a character developed, but you can't then like how other characters developed, in a different way, cause that's a double standard even though the difference in reaction is based on the difference in how the storylines were constructed...
    You very well know what i said.
    Not liking how some character developed, while being content with development of others has never been point of this blog.

    But using maturity and change in character as indication of their growth moving them forward, while denying same thing with Misty turning blind eye to her maturity and development she went through as character applying it to "derailment"is hypocrisy.
    Same goes for lies about "losing character"when writers only revealed more traits about her personality showing various emotions beside only temper not staying flat one dimensional character(having more to her than just one trait), with violent aspect of her never disappearing either only becoming less explosive after she developed.

    You can dislike how character developed, but still acknowledge that he received development moving his story forward. You can dislike change in his personality but still acknowledge that he had personality regardless how you feel about change. Like most people which disliked how Dawn, May, Ash etc changed do still not denying that they developed nor saying how their personality got eradicated.

    Characters develop in different way because they're different characters, they have different personalities, different roles on the show, go to different changes and interact with different Pokémon/characters... is it really so shocking to see different opinions on it?
    Constrictive criticism acknowledging that character grew, simply disliking change in his personality and explaining reasoning behind it is opinion. But denying that someone received any growth whatsoever and ignoring presence of his personality whether he liked it or not, while using different approach with other characters is blatantly obvious use of double norms.
    Updated 14th September 2012 at 01:41 AM by pokemon fan 132
  18. Hellion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    How is exactly serving as someone coach and mentor classified as comedy?
    I'll quote Shinneth here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth
    But the important thing I keep in mind is that I try my best to not project my fanon/extension of canon of my favorite characters onto other people. If you see a lot of depth and complexity and potential in Misty's charater, more power to you. But it's not cool to keep forcing that on everyone every single time the dreaded M-word pops up in any post, even if it's just a passing mention. There are plenty of people who don't care and aren't interested in an extended view of Misty's character.
    I don't see Kasumi as ever being a coach to Satoshi, what I saw at the very beginning (like... episode 3) was her bitching at him when he was doing something goofy, a.k.a comedy. But other than that... she never made strategies for Satoshi, never really impacted the way he was as a trainer. If anything, episode 5 showed Satoshi rejecting Kasumi's advice and finding his own way. I guess she sometimes said that Type X wasn't effective against Type Y, but then everyone's a coach. She encouraged him and rooted for him, then I guess every main character is a coach and had a huge impact on Satoshi's growth as a trainer.

    Most of the time, she was there for the interactions, the entertainment value. Whether or not she succeeded in that at different stages in the show is a different question.

    She always had certain rivalry with Ash often arguing each other to prove their point and trying to surpass themselves claiming to be better trainer than he was, with her remarks pushing him to try harder.
    Again, that's headcanon, not facts. Satoshi never considered Kasumi a rival, Satoshi was never motivated by the idea of catching up to Kasumi or proving his strength by defeating her.

    Downplaying character achievements wont help your argument.
    I'm not downplaying her achievements. I'm just not considering every single thing that a character ever did on the show to be "an achievement", as in... achieving something.

    She played more of classical heroine role than other girls did influencing more along with Brock Ash growth as trainer and always fighting for the weak helping them to stand up for themselves.
    Headcanon. You're listing things that pretty much every character (not just female characters) did on the show in some variation. Everyone helped the weak build their confidence, everyone cheered for one another, and Kasumi did it on a less regular basis, despite having 100 more episodes than everyone else. As for Kasumi battling many many trainers, you and I both know that she only battle other trainers (not TR) in about 20 out of 273 episodes.

    providing zealous and balanced interaction between characters.
    Zealous interactions?

    Her story and role only increased with time
    I guess you're right about that since she started with no story whatsoever and ended with a barely used goal.

    Same goes for lies about "losing character"when writers only revealed more traits about her personality showing various emotions beside only temper not staying flat one dimensional character(having more to her than just one trait), with violent aspect of her never disappearing either only becoming less explosive after she developed.
    Again, that's your interpretation, but that's not everybody's interpretation. I actually agree with you that Kasumi matured, that Kasumi changed, but since her sole purpose was to add entertainment value to the show and the traits that made her entertaining where downplayed and replaced with traits that really did not let her have the same impact on episodes as before, the idea that she "lost her personality", which is by the way a figure of speech called hyperbole and not to be taken to the letter, is not far fetched. More maturity and a more maternal side is fine and all, but it didn't really lead anywhere to me, nor did it add entertainment value to the show. Therefore, in most episodes of Kasumi wasn't really doing anything to contribute, but also was contributing in terms of entertainment and therefore served no purpose whatsoever. She was sentient wallpaper.

    You can dislike how character developed, but still acknowledge that he received development moving his story forward. You can dislike change in his personality but still acknowledge that he had personality regardless how you feel about change. Like most people which disliked how Dawn, May, Ash etc changed do still not denying that they developed nor saying how their personality got eradicated.
    Really? I think you need to look at CF's comment above. XD But of course, Kasumi is the only one whose development and personality are ignored... LOL
    Shinneth and Caseydia like this.
  19. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion
    I don't see Kasumi as ever being a coach to Satoshi, what I saw at the very beginning (like... episode 3) was her bitching at him when he was doing something goofy, a.k.a comedy. But other than that... she never made strategies for Satoshi, never really impacted the way he was as a trainer. If anything, episode 5 showed Satoshi rejecting Kasumi's advice and finding his own way. I guess she sometimes said that Type X wasn't effective against Type Y, but then everyone's a coach. She encouraged him and rooted for him, then I guess every main character is a coach and had a huge impact on Satoshi's growth as a trainer.

    Most of the time, she was there for the interactions, the entertainment value. Whether or not she succeeded in that at different stages in the show is a different question.
    She was coach, that isn't debatable.
    Purpose of coach is to teach trainer about his mistakes lifting up his spirit and helping him to recover after loss. To help him prepare strategy and teach him new things, and Misty did that quite often in this show.

    Like when she flirted with Danny in OI causing in Ash jealousy of being ignored serving as motivation to try best in passing gym tests, when she criticized him of just standing there and doing nothing with Squirtle against Rudy Starmie giving him encouragement and wake up call to snap himself out of trans and try harder, which resulted in Squirtle learning hydro pump. She continued to give him advices on several occasions such as warning him about ground types being weak to ice types like Dewgong suggesting someone else with Phanphy losing to Pryce because of Ash stubbornness. Offered him her own pokemon in fire extinction contests in Johto helping him with selection of water types and which one to use, what pokemon to use in Whirl Cup, helped him with Brock to prepare strategy when battling Macy or Gary in Johto league and what pokemon he should use insisting that he use water types etc, etc. Helped him to recover after loss in Indigo league not letting him to stay in depression, kicked Ash out of house when he was watching TV whole day instead of preparing for Indigo league to start training his pokemon etc.

    She served as mentor too because thanks to her advising along with Brock and warning him about various dangers, TR traps into which he would recklessly fall into and bringing him back to earth when he got carried away helped him to advance and develop both as person and trainer.

    Writers made it clear several times how her role is to be like Ash coach with character itself claiming that several times. Last time she said that in OS before departure was when arguing with Macy at Johto league claiming to be Ash coach.

    Whether you want to admit her involvement in this or not, it doesn't change fact that she was coach as well.

    Again, that's headcanon, not facts. Satoshi never considered Kasumi a rival, Satoshi was never motivated by the idea of catching up to Kasumi or proving his strength by defeating her.
    They were rivals in character sense.
    During course of series Misty even stated few times how she is Ash rival(she considered him one) with competitive spark wanting to prove themselves of being better than another being showed several times.

    There always existed certain competitive fire between her and Ash trying to portray herself as better battler serving as push for Ash to try his best and prove himself as trainer. Such as when battling for Totodile, for Togepi, for gym badge or in Whirl Cup, with arguing and underestimation of his trainer skills causing in him revolt wanting to prove her wrong.

    I don't even need to mention how her critics and sarcastic remarks pushed Ash to try harder when it comes to training and battling when he was provoked by her statements wanting to show her that she isn't right. And all those arguments to prove other side that he/she is wrong.
    Which helped Ash indirectly to bring best out of his pokemon to surface and use them to full potential.

    I can't even count number of times when Ash stated"she thinks she knows everything, we will show her".
    It wasn't real rivalry persay, but it pushed Ash to try harder.

    I'm not downplaying her achievements. I'm just not considering every single thing that a character ever did on the show to be "an achievement", as in... achieving something.
    When character affects plot or story of someone else, when he makes progress toward his goal or change current of plot that can be considered as achievement too.

    Entering tournaments isn't only thing which classifies as accomplishment.

    Headcanon. You're listing things that pretty much every character (not just female characters) did on the show in some variation. Everyone helped the weak build their confidence, everyone cheered for one another, and Kasumi did it on a less regular basis, despite having 100 more episodes than everyone else. As for Kasumi battling many many trainers, you and I both know that she only battle other trainers (not TR) in about 20 out of 273 episodes.
    Facts=/=head cannon. Misty was more of classic heroine than other girls were.
    Compared to other characters Misty was more of straight forward who doesn't cares about what other people think about her, who is brave enough to follow her dreams and goals and isn't afraid to say what she wants. She was known for intelligence usually recognizing TR under disguise, solving clues or several various issues under which group was put in, for quick thinking under pressured situations acting accordingly to it always standing out for others even if it involves sacrificing her own life. She was more involved in saving other lives and bringing group out of danger, helping others which had issues with older siblings and friends to fight for themselves and helped Ash to grew as trainer more than any other character in this show did listing already things others never did in this show.

    Just like May, Dawn, Brock etc did things she never did with each character being unique in that aspect.

    Zealous interactions?
    Feisty, fiery, zealous. Call it whatever you want.

    I guess you're right about that since she started with no story whatsoever and ended with a barely used goal.
    She had story from very start. Goal of becoming water master wasn't only thing centered around her and if you reread what i said in previous two responses you'll see what i mean..

    Again, that's your interpretation, but that's not everybody's interpretation. I actually agree with you that Kasumi matured, that Kasumi changed, but since her sole purpose was to add entertainment value to the show and the traits that made her entertaining where downplayed and replaced with traits that really did not let her have the same impact on episodes as before, the idea that she "lost her personality", which is by the way a figure of speech called hyperbole and not to be taken to the letter, is not far fetched. More maturity and a more maternal side is fine and all, but it didn't really lead anywhere to me, nor did it add entertainment value to the show. Therefore, in most episodes of Kasumi wasn't really doing anything to contribute, but also was contributing in terms of entertainment and therefore served no purpose whatsoever. She was sentient wallpaper.
    Only thing which was reduced was violent aspect not exploding as often as she used to in start.
    Which didn't made her any less interesting, unless you only found slapstick humor which was part of series until early second half of Kanto when Misty smacked people heads as "only interesting trait" about her. There was much more to it to Misty character with most people enjoying in her girly side, passionate love for hobbies and dreams, hotheaded side, tendency to tease, fact that she was outspoken, determined and perky while also showing that she can be very caring and compassionate too being one of character qualities.

    Misty brought plenty of humor, clash, and enjoyable dynamic in second half of Kanto, Orange Islands when Tracey joined cast and in Johto as well interacting with several characters while showing that her friendship with Ash and Brock grew stronger.

    So no such perception of maturing=losing character isn't excusable considering how Misty showed all traits which made her fun in first place frequently, with only difference being that she was less aggressive with temper still being there.

    When May matured she was significantly less ditzy and insecure but you don't see people saying "she lost her character becoming boring background". Same goes for others.

    And yes it helped her to move forward already listing which things got resolved in Misty story thanks to becoming more mature.
    Just because people ignore them doesn't erase their existence.

    Growth through Misty went served purpose and advanced her being more confident and independent person, as well stronger trainer. But people always turn blind eye to it while describing change in other characters as development which served its purpose.
    Fandom is full of hypocrites and since my blog managed to stir things up gathering so much attention, only further proves my point.

    Which is how many people tend to use double standards in here.

    Really? I think you need to look at CF's comment above. XD But of course, Kasumi is the only one whose development and personality are ignored... LOL
    Irrelevant to discussion. And i don't see anything debatable in there, since she is right about Dawn development. She improved as coordinator, but as character she never developed as much as Misty and May did imo.
    Updated 14th September 2012 at 07:17 AM by pokemon fan 132
  20. Hellion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    She was coach, that isn't debatable.
    I think that we're having this debate undoubtedly makes this debatable. As @Shinneth; said, the most important thing is not to force your head canon on other people. If you want to see Kasumi as this huge influence on Satoshi and that she was his coach, more power to you. Was she ever portrayed as such in the Animé? No, she was not. The Animé always made it very clear that Satoshi was the better trainer and actually did better when he was not listening to her "advice".

    Purpose of coach is to teach trainer about his mistakes lifting up his spirit and helping him to recover after loss. To help him prepare strategy and teach him new things, and Misty did that quite often in this show.
    Then Takeshi, Kenji, Haruka, Masato, Hikari, Iris and Dento, not to mention a truck load of recurring character where Satoshi's coach. Just take Hikari, she got Satoshi out of his funk after he lost his first full battle against Shinji, and she taught Satoshi the spin technique, inspired counter shield (actual contributions, not like... "Hey, fire types, you should use water pokémon!" Cause commenting on type matchups on the sidelines of a battle while having no impact whatsoever on the battle isn't being a coach, it's called commentary). Does that make Hikari a huge influence on Satoshi and Satoshi's coach? None of this means "coach"

    what pokemon to use in Whirl Cup
    Misty: "Wow, we have a 2-on-2 Water Pokémon battle coming up!"
    Ash: "I only have 2 Water Pokémon"
    Misty: "Well then I advise you to either use Totodile and Kingler... or... Totodile and Kingler!"
    Ash: "That's why you're my coach!"

    LOL at this point, Misty breathing is considered an achievement.

    They were rivals in character sense.
    Repeat after me: Headcanon. It's cool that you saw the two of them as rivals, but the Animé never actually treated them as such. They teased each other as friends often do, but in no way was Kasumi the benchmark that Satoshi must reach the way he refered to Shigeru or Shinji. He was obsessed with beating those two, it was what kept him going forward in a way that Kasumi never did.

    Entering tournaments isn't only thing which classifies as accomplishment.
    Nor did I ever say it was, but I don't consider an achievement something that everybody does. "She helped several people deal with confidence issues" or "She commented on type matchups", everyone and their cousin does that on the show. I see no reason to celebrate it as something unique and character defining, when it's shared by every character under the sun.

    Facts=/=head cannon.
    Well, then maybe you should start using facts.

    Feisty, fiery, zealous. Call it whatever you want.
    Feisty and Zealous aren't synonyms...

    She had story from very start.
    She, and I quote, "Left home and vowed not to return until she became a strong trainer". Episode 7, she comes home, her sisters recognize she's a strong trainer after a pathetic attempt at battling and that was pretty much the end of that story. Then, she just vegetated until the writers realized this was going to last longer than a year and a half and decided to make up a role that she spent more time talking about than pursuing.

    Hellooooooo story.

    unless you only found slapstick humor which was part of series until early second half of Kanto when Misty smacked people heads as "only interesting trait" about her.
    That and the snark were pretty much the only thing she had going for her in Kanto. She had Pokémon she didn't use and a degree in wallpaping through episodes, so yeah, when both of those were reduced and they didn't compensate with a consistent story, then yeah... she became dull.

    And i don't see anything debatable in there, since she is right about Dawn development. She improved as coordinator, but as character she never developed as much as Misty and May did imo.
    So... it's not okay for people to not like Misty's development or pretend it didn't exist but it's alright for Misty fans to do so. That, by the way, is a text book example of a double standard. XD
    Shinneth and Caseydia like this.
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