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pokemon fan 132

Character replacing, when one more becomes one too many?

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As we know pokemon started with formula of replacing characters after every 4 years since 2002 and while concept seemed nice in start, it started to wear of its initial positive aspect causing several ex main companions to end up replaced while halfway developed with open stories, eventually becoming abandoned.

Somehow i fail to see point in constantly adding new companions when there exists potential in older ones to do more and be further developed, just starting all over again with someone else rinse and repeat being deprived of chance for more meaningful growth considering he will never have chance to stay long enough for this.

It discourage people from investing in characters when its already known from start how they will end up forever abandoned and unfinished after departure anyway, being deprived of stable continuity based cast.

Im sure many were disappointed when May left, when she had potential to be done more not developing her own style as coordinator and not resolving rivalry with several characters.

Or take for example Misty departure which left lot to be desired with departure with several things in story ending unexplored and unfinished. Such as her goal of becoming water master, not knowing enough about her past, motives and various ambitions she had. I remember many people being disappointed that she left just when writers started to do something more significant with story with Whirl Cup.

Or Max who is doomed to rot forever at gym never starting his own journey or receiving his own pokemon.
Same goes for other characters which came or are about to come in future.

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Now some people tend to say how it "keeps show fresh", but they are only dragged in false belief how they are getting something "new and exciting" ending up with essentially nothing more than new face. Its pretty poor justification too, since you can keep anime fresh with older characters too by giving them new outfits or change of design, new pokemon, new subplots in story or expanding on previous ones doing new, fresh things.

Plenty anime keep same cast and people still view show and characters fresh because writers continue to add new stuff, taking story and characters forward in undiscovered directions.

Its not needed for advertizing either when new games can be promoted without new characters necessarily joining main cast. Since older characters can promote new games through new pokemon or by partaking in new game side quests just fine as any new character would.

Which automatically gives them marketing value too being possible to promote games through them, while new characters being showed through guest appearances like they did with several game characters already like Lyra, Khouri, Jimmy etc. Never mind fact how many vital game protagonists over the years ending ignored in favor of keeping older cast like Ash, Brock or Jessie, James and Meowth.

Unfortunately because of their sexist, rather shallow reasons(mr. Shudo blogs or mr. Hidaka interview highlighted that) this show suffers from intermittent and unstable cast losing its identity.

Many people question why older main characters stopped making appearances,but in anime which changes so often cast its not hard to conclude why are past characters ignored.
So far 6 characters in total were replaced(Tracey, Max, May, Misty, Dawn and Brock)and there is no indication showing how such trend will change any time soon,so expect more to come in future.

With so many ex characters writers simply don't have time to include them anymore in each region even if its just cameos, regardless of unresolved story and potential character may have to bring more.

So what did excessive cycling brought up? Ton of unfinished characters being throw aside like garbage, getting rid of someone just when people finally grew attached to him and when writers dived into someone story allowing us to get character better.

It also brought nonexistent continuity and destroyed story with little to none references to past regions,friends or pokemon being presen, with anime which is supposed to exist in same timeline as one entity making it look like joke compared to other shows.
Yes there are shows which replace characters,but they also keep older one updating them and developing further("Inazuma Eleven Go" is one of better examples).

Every possible thing new characters brings older one can bring too, whether its humor, great interaction , new pokemon and exciting battles. But difference is that with older friends we can see them evolve and grow as persons more, with interaction changing and going to different level.
With constant cycling that cant be achieved because new incomers don't have any background starting out as beginners(in most cases) leaving after few years never to be seen again, preventing writers from doing continuation and inject more subtle changes to their story.

As series will continue on,number will increase more and more and years from now in future we will have some unknown girl or guy number 15, 17 or 20 traveling around with Ash, starting out and joining rest of crew of long forgotten and abandoned characters after usual 4 year run .
By than Misty,Brock, May, Dawn etc will be long forgotten ancient history, their stories will never receive closure, all potential which they might have to do more will diminish and with so many new characters joining main cast its unlikely if we will even see them ever again.

And as time flies forward all new girls about who people will out of joy jump around growing to like them will end up in same boat unfinished and erased like they never existed, just like it is happening with characters we older generations grew to like.

It definitely gives food for thought, making you ask yourself whats the point in all of this?

We already have so many characters with interesting personalities and unfinished stories on which writers could do build up taking them forward. There are so many new ideas and unexplored directions which could bring new life to Tracey, Misty, May, soon enough Cilan, Iris etc reinventing and adding a whole new interesting note to them.

We haven't seen them for so long that their return to cast would feel like getting new character, but someone with who we are familiar with injecting excitement of all entertaining things writers could do growing forward from where they stopped when leaving cast.

So why not have pokemon learn from writers of other shows which invest more in already popular characters doing sequel to their stories, becoming more deep (like Ben 10, One Piece, Naruto, Winx and many, many other shows out there)., instead of discarding them like trash?

Is our mentality really so narrow minded that we live under illusion how previous companions couldn't make this anime interesting?
Do we really need to end with ton of new companions in every region , just to see them erased forever once generation from which they came in ended?

Phrase "they had their time" doesn't mean it would be mistake to develop them more, and its always fresh and nice to see all time favorite return getting update going through new directions.

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Updated 29th October 2012 at 11:01 AM by pokemon fan 132

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  1. Madame Pika's Avatar
    Every possible thing new characters brings older one can bring too, whether its humor, great interaction , new pokemon and exciting battles. But difference is that with older friends we can see them evolve and grow as persons more, with interaction changing and going to different level.
    I can't see Shigeru bringing the tension to the anime that Shinji did. I can't see Kasumi bringing the character drive and split plots as well as Haruka did and when I try I see it being very forced. I can't see anyone bringing in the child's view as well as Masato did. Really, I just disagree but here especially.

    I like the character changing, always have, and always will do. The more I think about it, the more I do like it. I think that it proves that Satoshi really wants to have lots of friends if he can have different traveling companions. I think it forces more creativity out of the show.

    Now some people tend to say how it "keeps show fresh", but they are only dragged in false belief how they are getting something "new and exciting" ending up with essentially nothing more than new face. Its pretty poor justification too, since you can keep anime fresh with older characters too by giving them new outfits or change of design, new pokemon, new subplots in story or expanding on previous ones doing new, fresh things.
    So there's no difference between DP writing and Kanto writing? Or Houen and DP writing? Or Kanto and Houen writing? I know that there's a difference between Kanto and Jouto writing but doesn't that just prove further that cast changes bring refreshment to this anime.

    So why not have pokemon learn from writers of other shows which invest more in already popular characters doing sequel to their stories, becoming more deep (like Ben 10, One Piece, Naruto, Winx and many, many other shows out there)., instead of discarding them like trash?
    The fact that those shows do that puts off new viewers. One of my friends told me recently that there is no way he'd consider touching Bleach since with the amount of episodes it has, the characters must be completely dull by now. Whether it's true or not that that's happened, it does show how people tend to feel about shows that don't refresh themselves.

    It also brought nonexistent continuity and destroyed story with little to none references to past regions,friends or pokemon being presen, with anime which is supposed to exist in same timeline as one entity making it look like joke compared to other shows.
    DP didn't refer to the past at all? Ever?

    Yes there are shows which replace characters,but they also keep older one updating them and developing further("Inazuma Eleven Go" is one of better examples).
    Actually I agree here. In fact, I'd like a bit more experimentation in general with character replacements. Why wait till the end of the series to get rid of characters that no longer inspire you, Shopro? Why not bring in new characters in the middle of series just to improve group dynamics? Or older ones if you feel like it? Why bring back the last gen girl every gen then do nothing with her? In fact why keep it on such a structure at all?

    We already have so many characters with interesting personalities and unfinished stories on which writers could do build up taking them forward. There are so many new ideas and unexplored directions which could bring new life to Tracey, Misty, May, soon enough Cilan, Iris etc reinventing and adding a whole new interesting note to them.
    Again, I agree to an extent.

    Unfortunately because of their sexist, rather shallow reasons(mr. Shudo blogs or mr. Hidaka interview highlighted that) this show suffers from intermittent and unstable cast losing its identity.
    I haven't seen much to suggest that Hidaka was being all that serious and having read the fuller translation of Shudo's blog, I don't think he was being sexist (against woman at least anyway) either. Takeshi Shudo's Blogs In fact, his dedication to getting Kasumi just right and more than a token girl impressed me, even though I don't think his feelings really helped her...

    tr:dl I like old characters, new characters and character replacing.
  2. Bluelatios's Avatar
    I can understand bringing in new characters every once in a while, this is normal for any tv show. But I agree with Pokemonfan that it can be done too much, depending in the nature of the show. Pokemon is a brand built on solid roots; its designed to become easily attached to, therefore its at its best when the characters really grow on you. It can't thrive when its all about new Pokemon, new people, new Ash development, new, new ,new, because Pokemon spans across a multitude of generations that need to stay hooked. What Pokemon needs is a balance to maintain the most fans at the highest loyalty. If Pokemon is to last for many many more generations to come, then a conservative approach to adding new content needs to be implemented.
  3. Caseydia's Avatar
    I think changing characters feels fresh that there is something to keep us watching. I was bored with misty, became bored with May and then Dawn after a while, let's not forget Brock who was like he wasn't even there in some episodes. I think they do that because since replacing Ash and Pikachu isn't going to happen, giving him different kids to travel with will keep money flowing in this show.
  4. Bluelatios's Avatar
    Here's something they could consider doing; have deeper interactions with Pokemon and balance the spotlight each of them gets. If there's one thing that's easy and makes sense to rotate, its the Pokemon they meet in every region. Aside from a select few however, most of the Pokemon themselves don't get used for much other than the "cool factor". Not to say each of them don't get some degree of development, but many could be explored further. If they were consistent in maintaining a strong plot for each of the Pokemon, that would in turn lead to keeping the humans learning and improving in fresh new ways. The same goes for rivals; give them deeper relationships with their Pokemon. Simple as that. All in all, I'm confident that the "boringness" of characters is merely the result of unskilled or lazy writing.
  5. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Madame Pika
    I can't see Shigeru bringing the tension to the anime that Shinji did. I can't see Kasumi bringing the character drive and split plots as well as Haruka did and when I try I see it being very forced. I can't see anyone bringing in the child's view as well as Masato did. Really, I just disagree but here especially.

    I like the character changing, always have, and always will do. The more I think about it, the more I do like it. I think that it proves that Satoshi really wants to have lots of friends if he can have different traveling companions. I think it forces more creativity out of the show.
    No, but you could see different kind of interactions with such characters when meeting up with different ones bringing humor ad enjoyable interactions in different way. Who knows in what way Hoenn would be written if Misty stayed, what kind of rivals and events would be created than? How would Team Magma plot who wanted to eradicate water types be written if aspiring water trainer was present in cast at that time? How would contests look like if May stayed for DP, and if rivals like Harley or Drew would bring better dynamic than likes of Zoey and Kenny? How would Unova look like if Dawn stayed?

    Having new character going through same problems and being involved in repeated ideas taken from earlier episode isn't something to write home about.

    Benefit behind older character staying longer at least allows that writers do sequel to his story and give him more complex development ,since they already have background and developed story to pick up and work upon.

    If you want to get rid of repetitiveness and staleness than long term solution doesn't lie in constant cycling(being form of repeat too) because that's just writers excuse of not having to try implementing new ideas and doing more meaningful development with others, but in actually changing formula by adding new innovations, taking story and characters forward in undiscovered directions which allows to keep show fresh and have better developed cast.

    Constant character cycling actually limits writers creativity because they are not forced to think of innovative ideas to keep things fresh and inject more substance to someone story, with anime falling down in slump which basically follows same old cliche formula at start of every new generation;"Ash leaves all pokemon beside Pikachu, he meets 2 new people, becomes friends and after 4 years they leave like they never mattered"rinse and repeat. There is no progression, there is no build up on already existing friendship and development with pokemon suffering from poor and relatively simple plot since it changes cast way too often to allow for more structured storyline.

    Exactly because of writers not being forced to come with new ways to develop already existing characters just changing them , there are so many rehashes done in new series using as base plots we already seen in older series like whole "fire starter getting abandoned by its trainer issue", people get feeling "how they are basically watching Misty and Brock 2.0 with Iris and Cilain in BW" because of many common points characters share, they get impression how Trip is basically Gary expie etc".

    They don't have to develop characters in more substantial way being easier to simply introduce new one doing personality mixture of few new traits with rest of them being already taken from previous character going with simple basic growth of beginner growing to mature, competent trainer with storytelling stopping at that like it happened with his predecessors since he is bound to be replaced.

    So there's no difference between DP writing and Kanto writing? Or Houen and DP writing? Or Kanto and Houen writing? I know that there's a difference between Kanto and Jouto writing but doesn't that just prove further that cast changes bring refreshment to this anime.
    Your missing the point in here. Message im sending with this blog is that series can be just as interesting with same cast with new companions not being necessary to keep anime fresh. Even if you get bored of certain character same could happen with new one right away defeating purpose behind new companions reinventing people interest in that way.

    Never mind ignoring fact how becoming bored of someone doesn't mean he/she can't become interesting to you in future again. It all depends in what direction writers take him and with what new, fresh ideas they come up for them.

    In comparison many shows keep same cast and they are still interesting with fandom every day learning something new, keeping them enjoyable to watch.

    Take DBZ for example. Have you ever asked yourself why this anime aired for so long and why it was so popular? Its because it kept same characters like Goku, showing him pass through various stages in life, got tested through new obstacles and villains surpassing his borders becoming stronger. If he got replaced with his son Gohan like it was initially intended dragon ball wouldn't last that long without doubt.

    Why people didn't grown tired of long running shows which keep same cast like One Piece for example? Because you see Luffy, Nami, Robin, Zoro etc changing, going through deeper growth, they change interactions keeping them fresh and interesting with new subplots being opened in their stories to have viewer see them in different/fresh light and find out things he didnt knew about originally.

    When you have stable established cast this soils ground to create brend in some show and keep viewers loyal toward anime because it keeps them interested to see how will characters they grew to like end up and with what new things writers can come up. Which means having large group of followers which are willing to stay with anime from start to very end to see how will things conclude, it makes them invest in cast starting to care with that number only increasing even more when new people starts watching such show spreading out its popularity.

    Constant rinse and repeat pokemon does cant maintain loyalty among watchers because there are no characters in which they could invest growing to actually care ad there is no continuity based story, since every storyline certain cast establish immediatelly gets flushed down the toilet when new companion joins in going from scratch.

    The fact that those shows do that puts off new viewers. One of my friends told me recently that there is no way he'd consider touching Bleach since with the amount of episodes it has, the characters must be completely dull by now. Whether it's true or not that that's happened, it does show how people tend to feel about shows that don't refresh themselves.
    Opinion from your friend doesn't speak in everyone name. Never mind that he didn't even gave this shows chance to see if his assumption would be true or not. One Piece, Naruto and similar anime which keep same cast are incredibly popular, with new viewers joining to watch this shows contrary to some belief.
    If you do survey among viewers which watch this anime you would be surprised how many of them never got bored of show and same characters, because writers know how to tell long story without making it stale.

    And yes writers refresh such shows, but not through cast changes. They refresh anime like Ben 10, One PIece etc through new and innovative ideas, having their characters go through changes and updates growing in more complex way which prevents audience from becoming bored of it.Bringing new ones while keeping older ones to do experiments with different dynamic between previous and new characters etc.
    Pokemon is apparently one of those anime which suffers from courage to try out new things with established cast breaking its overused formula, only relying on cast cycling.

    And as result of that show is in constant decline with every new generation having lower ratings than its predecessor. If character replacements in such frequent manner is good idea to go with returns would as result of it go up, instead of down. You would be surprised how many people quit pokemon just because they got sick of constant cycling through characters instead of making good use of something you already fleshed out to extent, along with extremely predictable principle this formula follows.

    DP didn't refer to the past at all? Ever?
    Small bits here and there you see through couple of flashbacks and random short appearances of previous characters only creates further confusion among new generations with anime suffering from intermittent story and very scarse continuity not having cohesive story.

    Making constant character replacing is ultimately pointless. Why not invest more in already established and successful characters , capitalizing on their popularity? That way we could have more continuity based cast, familiar faces we grew up would be taken forward in hew directions doing sequels to story, and it would bring boost to ratings too.

    I haven't seen much to suggest that Hidaka was being all that serious and having read the fuller translation of Shudo's blog, I don't think he was being sexist (against woman at least anyway) either. Takeshi Shudo's Blogs In fact, his dedication to getting Kasumi just right and more than a token girl impressed me, even though I don't think his feelings really helped her...

    tr:dl I like old characters, new characters and character replacing.
    When you see someone in blog mentioning how one of reasons why character had to go was because "he doesn't have enough charm, beauty", it reveals sexist nature. Same applies to mr. Hidaka and that interview openly admitting how they are for constant change of girls companions to try out new designs and bathing suits they can use for them, bringing new piece of fanservice for fandom.
    Updated 31st October 2012 at 03:24 PM by pokemon fan 132
  6. Madame Pika's Avatar
    No, but you could see different kind of interactions with such characters when meeting up with different ones bringing humor ad enjoyable interactions in different way. Who knows in what way Hoenn would be written if Misty stayed, what kind of rivals and events would be created than? How would Team Magma plot who wanted to eradicate water types be written if aspiring water trainer was present in cast at that time? How would contests look like if May stayed for DP, and if rivals like Harley or Drew would bring better dynamic than likes of Zoey and Kenny? How would Unova look like if Dawn stayed?
    I agree that seeing these things would have been more interesting. My point in pulling out the former quote was purely to defend the newer characters. I love character interaction and also enjoy the idea of seeing how different character do under different writing styles.

    Having new character going through same problems and being involved in repeated ideas taken from earlier episode isn't something to write home about.
    They haven't gone through the problems in the same way though and that makes things very different. It's not like any of the replacements are 'older character version 2'. I'll profess that there are repeated episodes but that would happen whether the cast changed or not.

    Opinion from your friend doesn't speak in everyone name. Never mind that he didn't even gave this shows chance to see if his assumption would be true or not. One Piece, Naruto and similar anime which keep same cast are incredibly popular, with new viewers joining to watch this shows contrary to some belief.
    If you do survey among viewers which watch this anime you would be surprised how many of them never got bored of show and same characters, because writers know how to tell long story without making it stale.
    Yep, he isn't a truly effective source. I gave him as an example. His opinion isn't rare though. My point was about gaining interest from new fans. I tend to find that most people I've talked too aren't into getting into a long running anime without a significant change. However, like you said, it's not really a reliable source, I'll admit that.

    And yes writers refresh such shows, but not through cast changes. They refresh anime like Ben 10, One PIece etc through new and innovative ideas, having their characters go through changes and updates growing in more complex way which prevents audience from becoming bored of it.Bringing new ones while keeping older ones to do experiments with different dynamic between previous and new characters etc.
    Pokemon is apparently one of those anime which suffers from courage to try out new things with established cast breaking its overused formula, only relying on cast cycling.
    Each show needs to be written differently. Pokemon can't/won't do what a lot of shows do for whatever reason, that can bring about refreshment: character aging for example since then they'd feel they'd have to bring in elements that they don't feel comfortable with. Tone changes tend to need another change to push them through: character change being the one that the pokemon anime uses.

    Small bits here and there you see through couple of flashbacks and random short appearances of previous characters only creates further confusion among new generations with anime suffering from intermittent story and very scarse continuity not having cohesive story.
    DP has still got the strongest sense of continuity in the show. It kept things in from past seasons yes, only on occasion. However, it's past references also were referring to itself, (like Shinji and Satoshi's first battle being referenced in their last battle or Shinji calling Satoshi out for his using his pokemon for power building in the Mukuri Cup rather than to win it or even just the amount of build up certain events had.) I don't think that having returning characters reflects on the continuity levels at all.

    When you see someone in blog mentioning how one of reasons why character had to go was because "he doesn't have enough charm, beauty", it reveals sexist nature. Same applies to mr. Hidaka and that interview openly admitting how they are for constant change of girls companions to try out new designs and bathing suits they can use for them, bringing new piece of fanservice for fandom.
    From Takeshi Shudo's blog as provided in the link I gave you. "As a digression, I have a strange theory, but I think that when courting a woman, it’s more efficient to tell her 100 times “You’re pretty” or “You’re beautiful” than attract her attention. Of course, it’s not worth considering if you don’t know her beautiful features nor features you want to get beautiful…. If you do so, your partner also will become beautiful for real. I agree with the opinion saying that it’s because both partners, a man flattering a woman with compliments and a woman who’s being complimented get under influence of autosuggestion.
    This is also the secret of creating a charming woman in the script. This is another digression, but in the most recent movies, dramas and anime created by male scriptwriters and supervisors, women are so uncharming, that it’s shocking. Even if it may look like they’re charming, but this is only thanks to actress’ looks, acting ability and sense of existence. Occasionally, when charming female characters appear in various productions, it turns out that supervisors and scriptwriters are female. In other words, women understand the charm of their own gender and they’re good at getting it out. And then, you would think that male supervisors and scriptwriters are good at creating charming male characters, but it’s not like that. They appear as male figures distorted in some way, someone who you wouldn’t want to associate with as friends. Back in the old days, there were male supervisors and scriptwriters who were skillful at getting out female charm, but I wonder what happened to people these days? But enough of digressions. The one who couldn’t create charming Kasumi was me, responsible for the series’ construction."
  7. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Madame Pika
    I agree that seeing these things would have been more interesting. My point in pulling out the former quote was purely to defend the newer characters. I love character interaction and also enjoy the idea of seeing how different character do under different writing styles.
    So than you agree how with older character you can put him in new situations, explore on different sides of his personality and create different interactions as he continues to grow and meet different characters(like rivals, new cast members, new friends etc).?

    They haven't gone through the problems in the same way though and that makes things very different. It's not like any of the replacements are 'older character version 2'. I'll profess that there are repeated episodes but that would happen whether the cast changed or not.
    They aren't same, but you would be surprised how many people called "Dawn as May clone", "Iris and Cilan being Misty and Brock clones", "Trip being watered down version of Gary "etc. Granted i disagree with such viewpoint, but in one hand i can see from where they're coming from because in anime which changes cast so often similarities between previous and new characters cannot be avoided which limit writers creativity greatly.

    All this character replacing is surely taking away from anime identity with show losing on its continuity not having stable cast and plot driven story .

    We think it helps keep show fresh, but in long turn it brings contra effect with viewers becoming less attached and interested in following anime with such shallow, repeated story taking away loyalty and eagerness in staying tune toward it., Considering it gets rid of characters at such speed that it completely stops any chance of companions being progressed to such degree which would allow more significant growth and addition of more layers and dimension to them becoming elevated and actually deep.

    With approach "out with old, in with new" writers don't have any need or motivation from investing more in characters they work with,doing only most basic things which necessitate minimum of their effort and before you know it protagonist is gone and forgotten(like it never existed or had impact on story) leaving us with product which is called "unfinished character".

    Yep, he isn't a truly effective source. I gave him as an example. His opinion isn't rare though. My point was about gaining interest from new fans. I tend to find that most people I've talked too aren't into getting into a long running anime without a significant change. However, like you said, it's not really a reliable source, I'll admit that.
    Show with stable cast and strong continuity creates brand around themselves and loyal viewers , while at same time attracting new fans toward it becoming interested in characters and storyline who still didn't went into it.

    Anime which manage to keep older characters relevant doing mix of both older and new as result become appealing not only to new kids, but older ones as well gathering large group of followers. Like One Piece, Naruto and similar ones are, since because of their approach trying to appeal to both older and new fans they maintain strong following and loyal fandom, while not losing appeal required to get new generations hooked on it.

    In pokemon writers would have ultimately more success in maintaining popularity if they did mix of old and new. Such as toning down of character replacing and reusing some of all time favorites taking them forward(like May, Misty, Max etc).

    Which is recipe for bringing new angle to anime by injecting new and unpredictable twist ,maintaining people interest and reaching beyond current audience attracting more older fans toward it.

    More viewers means more customers, better ratings and in end more money. But because of traditional approach preferring to keep status quo, we have messed up story, low continuity and only fragments of development with anime being in constant decline rating wise.

    Each show needs to be written differently. Pokemon can't/won't do what a lot of shows do for whatever reason, that can bring about refreshment: character aging for example since then they'd feel they'd have to bring in elements that they don't feel comfortable with. Tone changes tend to need another change to push them through: character change being the one that the pokemon anime uses.
    Character aging is one of possible ways to keep current cast fresh without replacing them, but its not only one. There are other ways like introducing new subplots in stories and obstacles put in front of them they would have to overcome, exploring on their past bringing up things which were forgot to b included first time around, growth of relationship between characters by taking their personalities and interactions to different level.

    Expand on their current role by giving them new interests and quirks giving to fans something they didn't knew about him until now etc. Change of interactions between pokemon and trainers like Bluelatios suggested is an option too.

    If anything keeping characters for more than one generation would allow us to see them developed to more significant degree gaining more depth and mystery,it would allow us to see their backstories and personalities be explored to deeper level along with characters,their pokemon and plots which form story being taken to new directions being treated as continuation.

    Furthermore this would refresh them,their pokemon and dreams,definitely having potential bringing in end same entertainment value as new ones provide(sometimes even more),having people appreciate them even more because of growth they might receive.

    Most of fans i met would have preferred if writers stick with one of them instead of going through endless repetitive cycle of rinse and repeat.

    DP has still got the strongest sense of continuity in the show. It kept things in from past seasons yes, only on occasion. However, it's past references also were referring to itself, (like Shinji and Satoshi's first battle being referenced in their last battle or Shinji calling Satoshi out for his using his pokemon for power building in the Mukuri Cup rather than to win it or even just the amount of build up certain events had.) I don't think that having returning characters reflects on the continuity levels at all.
    But like you mentioned yourself those are just fragments and tiny bits which bring more confusion than help, with anime suffering from mauled continuity and weak story.

    Random short appearances don't add much either, but through reusing some of older characters would allow to have more stable and filled with continuity storyline. Since they already know main protagonist Ash from before with form of friendship, connection being already established in past making big part of anime history interactions would surely be more profound/different than we see with new characters which join cast with flashbacks and references to past becoming stronger. Nonetheless this would also help new generations to better understand anime past providing connection to past sagas,and test out if they would be accepted among new viewers like they were among older fans leading to pleasing all group of fans rather than only one.

    Which equals higher ratings and more money.

    From Takeshi Shudo's blog as provided in the link I gave you. "As a digression, I have a strange theory, but I think that when courting a woman, it’s more efficient to tell her 100 times “You’re pretty” or “You’re beautiful” than attract her attention. Of course, it’s not worth considering if you don’t know her beautiful features nor features you want to get beautiful…. If you do so, your partner also will become beautiful for real. I agree with the opinion saying that it’s because both partners, a man flattering a woman with compliments and a woman who’s being complimented get under influence of autosuggestion.
    This is also the secret of creating a charming woman in the script. This is another digression, but in the most recent movies, dramas and anime created by male scriptwriters and supervisors, women are so uncharming, that it’s shocking. Even if it may look like they’re charming, but this is only thanks to actress’ looks, acting ability and sense of existence. Occasionally, when charming female characters appear in various productions, it turns out that supervisors and scriptwriters are female. In other words, women understand the charm of their own gender and they’re good at getting it out. And then, you would think that male supervisors and scriptwriters are good at creating charming male characters, but it’s not like that. They appear as male figures distorted in some way, someone who you wouldn’t want to associate with as friends. Back in the old days, there were male supervisors and scriptwriters who were skillful at getting out female charm, but I wonder what happened to people these days? But enough of digressions. The one who couldn’t create charming Kasumi was me, responsible for the series’ construction."
    Mr. Shudo blogs if anything revealed several contradictions in his thoughts and opinions. If he thought Misty didn't had charm among fans, he was clearly mistaken because popularity and iconic status she left on anime and audience showed otherwise with highest demand for return of past characters to main cast being for her.
    Misty was popular because of her multi faced personality, touching background and unique and mysterious goal with people finding her outstanding. What mr. Shudo failed to do with her was in creating more solid and stronger role through which character could stay more relevant to anime.
    Updated 1st November 2012 at 01:50 PM by pokemon fan 132
  8. Madame Pika's Avatar
    Okay, I'll tell you something. YOU would find that character replacement limits YOUR creativity. Do the show's creators find that? Well, judging by how much more complete and less full of staleness the characters have got since they brought in the idea that the characters time on the show could and would end, I'd say that THEY feel a lot happier that way. I support the writers writing at the pace and with characters that they feel comfortable with. Kasumi left with a bad ending because they were worried that they'd have to bring her back. Her story with her sisters often repeated itself and she got very well, nowhere-ish in her goal. With Takeshi too, he only did well in the first series and in DP. DP being when they were rounding him up. Though I wish they'd shoved all his stuff at the beginning of DP and then replaced him. The writers have experimented and found that 'four years' is a good run for them writing characters though.

    (Sorry about all the italics, bold text and capitals there. I don't usually do that sort of thing but I feel strongly about this.)

    Every person who has creativity, has a different stamina that they can continue writing that character for. The shortest I've come across is Tex Avery who created Bugs Bunny, and hated having characters lasting a couple of shorts but mainly liked to do one shots. He even tried to kill off Bugs Bunny at one point. Sure there are many exsamples of people continuing with the same characters for years.

    Actually, now I've said that... erm, have you ever tried writing the same character continuously? Doing so without losing inspiration?

    They aren't same, but you would be surprised how many people called "Dawn as May clone", "Iris and Cilan being Misty and Brock clones", "Trip being watered down version of Gary "etc. Granted i disagree with such viewpoint, but in one hand i can see from where they're coming from because in anime which changes cast so often similarities between previous and new characters cannot be avoided which limit writers creativity greatly.
    Good point, I forgot about Shuuti. Mainly people who don't actually watch the show. I have heard yes, it from those that do too with 'Shuuti being Shinji Lite' and 'Hikari being a mix of Satoshi and Haruka' the most common. Actually, some writers, like the ones on the show, find that getting simular characters and showing why they're different is an interesting challenge. They like to show off and do what they are good at. They have always been pretty good at this, as can be seen by the amount of unique COTD especially back in Kanto.

    Character aging is one of possible ways to keep current cast fresh without replacing them, but its not only one. There are other ways like introducing new subplots in stories and obstacles put in front of them they would have to overcome, exploring on their past bringing up things which were forgot to b included first time around, growth of relationship between characters by taking their personalities and interactions to different level.

    Expand on their current role by giving them new interests and quirks giving to fans something they didn't knew about him until now etc. Change of interactions between pokemon and trainers like Bluelatios suggested is an option too.

    If anything keeping characters for more than one generation would allow us to see them developed to more significant degree gaining more depth and mystery,it would allow us to see their backstories and personalities be explored to deeper level along with characters,their pokemon and plots which form story being taken to new directions being treated as continuation.

    Furthermore this would refresh them,their pokemon and dreams,definitely having potential bringing in end same entertainment value as new ones provide(sometimes even more),having people appreciate them even more because of growth they might receive.
    Are all things that the writers should be doing/are doing when writing characters anyway, just on an episode to episode basis. I don't see anything here that counts as 'refreshing' change. I also thought of something else that could bring about refreshing change that the writers can't do: setting changes. The exploring the world of pokemon is the whole point to the show, and actually by replacing the characters we get to see more world points for it.

    But like you mentioned yourself those are just fragments and tiny bits which bring more confusion than help, with anime suffering from mauled continuity and weak story.

    Random short appearances don't add much either, but through reusing some of older characters would allow to have more stable and filled with continuity storyline. Since they already know main protagonist Ash from before with form of friendship, connection being already established in past making big part of anime history interactions would surely be more profound/different than we see with new characters which join cast with flashbacks and references to past becoming stronger. Nonetheless this would also help new generations to better understand anime past providing connection to past sagas,and test out if they would be accepted among new viewers like they were among older fans leading to pleasing all group of fans rather than only one.

    Which equals higher ratings and more money.
    Continuity is more than just referring to the past all the time. DP was full of build up, full of logical writing (including realistic stuff), and full of rules that remained rules throughout. ... Well, the rule breaking was lower than usual anyway.

    Different series have different pulls. Pokemon can by now claim to have a pull from the fact that it changes casts. With the fact that it's in reruns of other series, if you don't like one flow of one series you can just watch another. Also, changing casts allows the current generation of viewers to claim 'ownership' of a series.

    Mr. Shudo blogs if anything revealed several contradictions in his thoughts and opinions. If he thought Misty didn't had charm among fans, he was clearly mistaken because popularity and iconic status she left on anime and audience showed otherwise with highest demand for return of past characters to main cast being for her.
    Or maybe he wanted more than that for her. That was the feeling I got from reading the blog. That he wanted a strong charm that do more than 'here have a girl, girls'. Also, I've been wondering how is Kasumi iconic? Most people I mention pokemon too, nostalgia over other things. She may be the first girl but that doesn't mean much. There are loads of un-iconic firsts, especially in animation.

    Misty was popular because of her multi faced personality, touching background and unique and mysterious goal with people finding her outstanding. What mr. Shudo failed to do with her was in creating more solid and stronger role through which character could stay more relevant to anime.
    Which is why most fanfics portray her as a wussy romantic with a mallet! Or just a plain Tsundere! Or being a generic love interest for Satoshi. I think that that's a matter of opinion. I tend not to spend much time in the Kasumi fandom so I can't argue. For the second point though, isn't that just what he said. He felt he could have justified her better but lacked the skill.
  9. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Madame Pika
    Okay, I'll tell you something. YOU would find that character replacement limits YOUR creativity. Do the show's creators find that? Well, judging by how much more complete and less full of staleness the characters have got since they brought in the idea that the characters time on the show could and would end, I'd say that THEY feel a lot happier that way. I support the writers writing at the pace and with characters that they feel comfortable with. Kasumi left with a bad ending because they were worried that they'd have to bring her back. Her story with her sisters often repeated itself and she got very well, nowhere-ish in her goal. With Takeshi too, he only did well in the first series and in DP. DP being when they were rounding him up. Though I wish they'd shoved all his stuff at the beginning of DP and then replaced him. The writers have experimented and found that 'four years' is a good run for them writing characters though.

    (Sorry about all the italics, bold text and capitals there. I don't usually do that sort of thing but I feel strongly about this.)

    Every person who has creativity, has a different stamina that they can continue writing that character for. The shortest I've come across is Tex Avery who created Bugs Bunny, and hated having characters lasting a couple of shorts but mainly liked to do one shots. He even tried to kill off Bugs Bunny at one point. Sure there are many exsamples of people continuing with the same characters for years.

    Actually, now I've said that... erm, have you ever tried writing the same character continuously? Doing so without losing inspiration?
    Constant character replacing limits creativity because writers aren't forced to write in deeper, more complex way for characters and anime story. Because they don't have to create innovative, fresh directions through which pokemon series could become continuity based show which gradually develops characters since every individual they bring in anime leaves before he would even have chance for more meaningful growth.

    Take for example Misty. When writers finally started to do something significant with story creating Whirl Islands and explaining concept of water master shedding new interesting light on story, when she started to mature and grew as person, when her pokemon team become better defined with addition of Corsola and Politoad they got rid of her in half of development being deprived of chance to go forward.

    When May finally started to change realizing how she needs to revamp whole approach toward contests and develop her own style she left with viewers becoming deprived of opportunity to see character growing in more refined directions.

    When Max learned how books and computers aren't everything, instead of starting to do something with his story he got abandoned.

    Because of getting rid of characters constantly we don't have groundwork to create stable established cast which can receive build up, writers aren't forced to write more creatively finding things through which they could keep cast interesting and develop them in different way.

    Which leads to lose of brand, opportunity to create loyal fandom and stands in way of anime evolving and becoming more appealing.

    We can see lack of creativity with same basic development they implement when dealing with new characters consisting of someone starting out as rookie or close to that eventually learning lesson or two becoming more confident and mature. Rinse and repeat, not putting to test writers potential and imagination to bring whole new angle to show and develop characters and story in whole new way we never saw. Since every character and every story they came up with which was developed to the point where you can take them to new level doing more complex development got scrapped in favor of new companions going all over again with similar formulaic approach they have been using for past 12 years.

    Same thing happens with plots in new sagas often being nothing more than replica of ideas we already saw in previous series.

    And people are getting tired of this wanting anime to be more plot driven and stable for change investing in characters and taking them on bigger, better things instead of constantly going through redo with every new companion.

    You say it gets rid of staleness, but let me ask you this.
    Aren't people interested in seeing older characters updated, aren't we excited to see what new clothes, new pokemon, and new challenges they had in mean time? Aren't we in general more attached to them with unexpected returns making us feel more excited, than new characters about who we are indifferent do? Its unexpected surprises like this and exciting new story lines writers comes up with older characters to add new life to them which are adding extra flavor to main series, making them even better.
    Everything you mentioned which new character brings, older one can bring as well but actually better. Because they have history and groundwork to go on bigger things.

    Are all things that the writers should be doing/are doing when writing characters anyway, just on an episode to episode basis. I don't see anything here that counts as 'refreshing' change. I also thought of something else that could bring about refreshing change that the writers can't do: setting changes. The exploring the world of pokemon is the whole point to the show, and actually by replacing the characters we get to see more world points for it.
    And why such things we don't see with new characters? Because they stay in cast for so short that any chance to develop them in more profound, complex ways falls in water. Since with new character there doesn't exist any background starting out as beginners(in most cases) leaving after few years never to be seen again, preventing writers from doing continuation and inject more subtle changes to their story.

    Using new character instead of putting more effort in already established companion going through same formulaic patter through which his predecessor was developed isn't creativity, but writers laziness.

    Interesting that you brought up adventure aspect of anime, because character cycling only lowers appealing aspect of it. There is nothing new and refreshing in seeing same boring cycle after every 3 to 4 years which follows same basic principle: "Ash goes back to Kanto leaving all pokemon behind except Pikachu, somewhere on road he meets new character, they develop initial friendship, after few years that companion leaves forever doing same overused and bland approach with every new generation.

    With stable cast where characters don't get constantly replaced you can better decant on screen idea of Ash and friends exploring world of pokemon, going through new adventures and challenges, having us learn new things about them with very day etc. Since you already have characters with groundwork behind them, they passed long ago point of introducing themselves to each other which allows that friendship and interactions between them grow forward in new directions considering they already have history together.

    It soils ground to create plot driven story with more continuity and connections to past sagas Ash traveled through along with companions going in undiscovered directions growing more.
    You say concept of pokemon is to explore its world and creatures, but exactly because of excessive cycling through characters that same concept of having close friends which discover new things, go through both good and bad things and adventurous aspect learning new things about themselves and how to develop their relationship disappears with new cast not having history and close bond to fully evoke such experience.

    If you ever watched long lasting anime which keep its characters developing them further im sure you would notice this as well.

    Continuity is more than just referring to the past all the time. DP was full of build up, full of logical writing (including realistic stuff), and full of rules that remained rules throughout. ... Well, the rule breaking was lower than usual anyway.

    Different series have different pulls. Pokemon can by now claim to have a pull from the fact that it changes casts. With the fact that it's in reruns of other series, if you don't like one flow of one series you can just watch another. Also, changing casts allows the current generation of viewers to claim 'ownership' of a series
    Issue in here isn't continuity for specific saga of pokemon, but continuity of series as whole.

    Whenever new generation begins and new characters are added continuity and connections to previous regions Ash traveled through are almost nonexistent, previous companions which played major part in pokemon history and Ash life are forgotten, there isn't elaborated and plot driven story which transfers to other regions cast travels through.

    Take for example original series. Johto maybe had several flaws but because of same cast there existed connection to past sagas Ash traveled through with several references and return of past individuals strengthening idea of having entity formulated anime. There existed storyline which expanded itself to future regions Ash travels through such as GS ball with more continuity being present. Same cast allowed that friendship between Ash and traveling companions grow becoming more close and familiar with both their qualities and flaws.

    Original series tried to treat anime in such way, but because of poor writing in Johto and mr. Shudo stepping out from head position idea wasn't elaborated in good way. But at least Ash wasn't restarted and anime was more treated like lasting entity.

    Point is that with presence of older companions, already stable cast we have elevated story which pays attention to its history, because of already developed friendship Ash doesn't regress going through same lessons again, since anime would go back to its roots emphasizing on continuity and past travels Ash had with familiar faces reminding audience of that .This also provides more references and flashbacks to Ash past helping character to maintain maturity.

    Or maybe he wanted more than that for her. That was the feeling I got from reading the blog. That he wanted a strong charm that do more than 'here have a girl, girls'. Also, I've been wondering how is Kasumi iconic? Most people I mention pokemon too, nostalgia over other things. She may be the first girl but that doesn't mean much. There are loads of un-iconic firsts, especially in animation.
    Im not so sure about that. If he wanted more for character than he wouldn't have planned to get rid of Misty already after Kanto. He never cared much for her but since people in charge didn't supported idea of replacing Misty he didn't had choice but to keep her until opportunity to replace character didn't arise. Of course that doesn't mean he didn't wanted to expand more on her role, since he was was after all obliged to handle cast in best possible manner. But that doesn't change fact how he never cared much for character.

    Many people wouldn't agree with his view on character describing her as plain "token fill up space",because Misty was much more than that.

    As for your question, its not only Misty who is viewed iconic, but Brock and Ash as well. In fact all members of original trio are considered iconic in fandom because they were group which started this show introducing us to pokemon world. They were original promoting anime worldwide helping it to become globally popular and accepted with most people who you ask about pokemon immediately associating it with Ash, Misty and Brock being most known characters.

    For same reason Yugi, Joey or Kaiba are most recognized characters of Yugioh, first cast from Digimon is most recognized and viewed as legend which started everything etc. Its not only pokemon, in many shows original characters are considered iconic.

    Add to that strong personality and interesting story and its not surprising why even after 10 years since leaving cast and after so many cycled generations of kids Misty still has huge and loyal following.

    Which is why most fanfics portray her as a wussy romantic with a mallet! Or just a plain Tsundere! Or being a generic love interest for Satoshi. I think that that's a matter of opinion. I tend not to spend much time in the Kasumi fandom so I can't argue. For the second point though, isn't that just what he said. He felt he could have justified her better but lacked the skill.
    Its common misconception that Misty was generic tsundere, but as we can see in later half of Kanto and onwards character showed various sides to it having characteristics of kuudere and other types of characters.

    As for second point that's not same. He wanted to increase her role and strengthen it, but regardless of if he had done that or not in his view "Misty wasn't enough pretty and charming" as female protagonist.
  10. Madame Pika's Avatar
    Constant character replacing limits creativity because writers aren't forced to write in deeper, more complex way for characters and anime story. Because they don't have to create innovative, fresh directions through which pokemon series could become continuity based show which gradually develops characters since every individual they bring in anime leaves before he would even have chance for more meaningful growth.
    If the creators are forced than the writing feels forced. If they have to create ideas than they don't feel natural.

    If the show's writing feels forced and unnatural than it becomes less entertaining.

    If they choose to by doing the equivalent of taking a fresh new blank piece of paper, the show is more inspired.

    Because of getting rid of characters constantly we don't have groundwork to create stable established cast which can receive build up, writers aren't forced to write more creatively finding things through which they could keep cast interesting and develop them in different way.
    I find the word established here interesting. I've been thinking a lot about character establishment of late. How really good creators, can establish a character in a manner of seconds. Pokemon isn't that different only that characters tend to get several establishing scenes, because it's a long series (and they don't want it too be too much risking having kids not understanding a part of the series due to missing one episode). In this case, it often says not just 'this is a girly character' but 'this is a very girly character' for example. The amount of establishment in my experience seems to get better as the series goes on (ignoring Best Wishes).

    Jun for example, (I was going to do Shinji but I don't want to over do my talking about him,) was originally shown as a Shinji fan boy, a very huge fan boy. This is shown over his first two episodes but we also see his main characteristic: his eccentricity. As time goes on it's still brought up and is used to bring extra attention to the Shinji/Satoshi rivalry. We also discover more and more things about him that build up a strong and interesting character. His own rivalry with Shinji, is made funnier by the fact that they don't meet for a while. When they do battle, things don't really change in him but rather when he sees Satoshi begin to beat him. I could say more but this is already a little off topic. Really though, it shows that new characters can be full of inspiration and fun. That creativity depends on how creative the creators are feeling. Not on how old the cast is.

    Issue in here isn't continuity for specific saga of pokemon, but continuity of series as whole.

    Whenever new generation begins and new characters are added continuity and connections to previous regions Ash traveled through are almost nonexistent, previous companions which played major part in pokemon history and Ash life are forgotten, there isn't elaborated and plot driven story which transfers to other regions cast travels through.

    Take for example original series. Johto maybe had several flaws but because of same cast there existed connection to past sagas Ash traveled through with several references and return of past individuals strengthening idea of having entity formulated anime. There existed storyline which expanded itself to future regions Ash travels through such as GS ball with more continuity being present. Same cast allowed that friendship between Ash and traveling companions grow becoming more close and familiar with both their qualities and flaws.

    Original series tried to treat anime in such way, but because of poor writing in Johto and mr. Shudo stepping out from head position idea wasn't elaborated in good way. But at least Ash wasn't restarted and anime was more treated like lasting entity.

    Point is that with presence of older companions, already stable cast we have elevated story which pays attention to its history, because of already developed friendship Ash doesn't regress going through same lessons again, since anime would go back to its roots emphasizing on continuity and past travels Ash had with familiar faces reminding audience of that .This also provides more references and flashbacks to Ash past helping character to maintain maturity.
    I'm sorry but I don't understand this at all. It does doesn't make sense to me. Sure the characters go but what they brought in terms of showing the pokemon world as a vibrant, unique, and interesting place is still there (at least until Best Wishes). The idea that there can be contests, different types of trainers, different training ideas, humour or strong connections between siblings never really left the show but instead got shown in different ways. The whole human/pokemon interaction has been shown on a far stronger level thanks to cast changes.

    And why such things we don't see with new characters? Because they stay in cast for so short that any chance to develop them in more profound, complex ways falls in water. Since with new character there doesn't exist any background starting out as beginners(in most cases) leaving after few years never to be seen again, preventing writers from doing continuation and inject more subtle changes to their story.
    Four years is a short amount of time. Learn something new every day.

    Interesting that you brought up adventure aspect of anime, because character cycling only lowers appealing aspect of it. There is nothing new and refreshing in seeing same boring cycle after every 3 to 4 years which follows same basic principle: "Ash goes back to Kanto leaving all pokemon behind except Pikachu, somewhere on road he meets new character, they develop initial friendship, after few years that companion leaves forever doing same overused and bland approach with every new generation.
    Adventure aspect that I brought up?

    I was thinking more of the human/pokemon relationship. I think that that was best tackled in DP with the Shinji/Satoshi rivalry. I know that they'd said simular things before but here they showed it.

    As for your question, its not only Misty who is viewed iconic, but Brock and Ash as well. In fact all members of original trio are considered iconic in fandom because they were group which started this show introducing us to pokemon world. They were original promoting anime worldwide helping it to become globally popular and accepted with most people who you ask about pokemon immediately associating it with Ash, Misty and Brock being most known characters.

    For same reason Yugi, Joey or Kaiba are most recognized characters of Yugioh, first cast from Digimon is most recognized and viewed as legend which started everything etc. Its not only pokemon, in many shows original characters are considered iconic.

    Add to that strong personality and interesting story and its not surprising why even after 10 years since leaving cast and after so many cycled generations of kids Misty still has huge and loyal following.
    By the fans... therefore not iconic. Iconic | Define Iconic at Dictionary.com To be iconic, she would have to represent the whole show, like Mickey Mouse (Disney's third big star) represents Disney or Fleischer Studios are represented by either Betty Boop (third again) or Popeye (fourth.) I can't be bothered in counting how many stars Warner Bros had before they came across Bugs Bunny but it was a decent amount. To be iconic, she would have to be still showing the show to the non fans after many many many years. (It's hard to say how long tbh.) I'd say that Yugi is the only iconic Yugioh character.

    As for second point that's not same. He wanted to increase her role and strengthen it, but regardless of if he had done that or not in his view "Misty wasn't enough pretty and charming" as female protagonist.
    I think I should bring something up. This will be my final point on Takeshi Shudo since I feel that my lack of knowledge is showing. Firstly in response, I never ever heard that he referring to Kasumi as not 'pretty' enough. Secondly, why would the creator of Team Rocket and the writer of the orginal Team Rocket motto: a team of a masculine guy and a feminine girl, call out a protagonist for not being charming if he believed that 'charm' and 'staying true to gender stereotypes' meant the same ruddy thing? Charm | Define Charm at Dictionary.com I don't see nothing here that suggests that and whilst I know we're using translations here, I have seen no complaints about this particular word therefore, I reckon that we have no reason to believe that his idea of charm was a complaint about Kasumi being a tomboy.
  11. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Madame Pika
    If the creators are forced than the writing feels forced. If they have to create ideas than they don't feel natural.

    If the show's writing feels forced and unnatural than it becomes less entertaining.

    If they choose to by doing the equivalent of taking a fresh new blank piece of paper, the show is more inspired.
    Don't they come up with new plots and ideas for new characters too? But i don't see you saying how they are "forced".

    Im afraid you misunderstood entire point. By forced i meant how because of constantly replacing characters, they aren't motivated to do more with someone they already have/created taking character through deeper growth.

    Instead they rather choose easier way introducing new character following basic growth we already saw with countless of previous companions never seeing characters with solid groundwork growing forward in more complex manner.

    Which is reflection of writers laziness and conservative approach being counterproductive to creativity, because they rather choose easier way introducing new character following basic growth we already saw with countless of previous companions, instead of investing more in already somewhat developed characters with solid groundwork taking them forward in new undiscovered/ more complex directions.

    If you constantly follow same repeated formula your skills become rusty, you don't have challenges set in front yourself making you start to reconsider your current writing style and how to surpass your limits.

    Laziness leads to drop of quality and limitation of creativity which results in shallow and weak storyline, scarce continuity and wasted potential which characters may have.
    Considering it gets rid of characters at such speed that it completely stops any chance of companions being progressed to such degree which would allow more significant growth and addition of more layers and dimension to them .

    Whenever previous companion reach certain point in his story being developed to some degree whether it was Misty, Brock, May or someone else instead of taking them on bigger things giving to viewers something they never saw in this show we end up at start of every new generation with rehash of what we saw before following another greenhorn through basic steps all over again.

    As result of that viewers become less attached and interested in following anime with shallow, repeated story taking away loyalty and willingness in staying tune toward it.

    You brought up inspiration, but please do answer from where inspiration comes? From writers imagination?

    If that's the case than you are willing to admit how characters they already developed to some extent can invoke in writers inspiration just as much making them come up with new(innovative ways to keep him/her fresh developing them further.

    Meaning how there is no reason to constantly get new companions when you can have fresh story and interesting development through older characters as well.

    I find the word established here interesting. I've been thinking a lot about character establishment of late. How really good creators, can establish a character in a manner of seconds. Pokemon isn't that different only that characters tend to get several establishing scenes, because it's a long series (and they don't want it too be too much risking having kids not understanding a part of the series due to missing one episode). In this case, it often says not just 'this is a girly character' but 'this is a very girly character' for example. The amount of establishment in my experience seems to get better as the series goes on (ignoring Best Wishes).

    Jun for example, (I was going to do Shinji but I don't want to over do my talking about him,) was originally shown as a Shinji fan boy, a very huge fan boy. This is shown over his first two episodes but we also see his main characteristic: his eccentricity. As time goes on it's still brought up and is used to bring extra attention to the Shinji/Satoshi rivalry. We also discover more and more things about him that build up a strong and interesting character. His own rivalry with Shinji, is made funnier by the fact that they don't meet for a while. When they do battle, things don't really change in him but rather when he sees Satoshi begin to beat him. I could say more but this is already a little off topic. Really though, it shows that new characters can be full of inspiration and fun. That creativity depends on how creative the creators are feeling. Not on how old the cast is.
    Established cast means group of characters which gradually grows forward. It means cast which gives anime sense of stability, identity and creates foundation for plot driven story.

    By constantly adding characters you can't have established cast which gradually grow forward, you can't have friendship between protagonists grow stronger since they already share history together nor you can't have continuity based story which gradually grows over course of series.

    You say new characters can be full of inspiration and fun? But answer this, can older characters be full of inspiration and fun again too?

    Every possible thing new characters bring older one can bring too, whether its humor, great interaction , new pokemon and exciting battles. But difference is that with older friends we can see them evolve and grow as persons with interaction changing and going to different level.
    I know what you mean about "new factor", but aren't older characters "new"to small kids which never saw them? Can't they provide novelty if we haven't seen them for very long time starting to forget why we liked them in first place, with return and being took in new directions sparking our interest?
    Older character can have novelty about themselves if writers take their story to exciting and undiscovered direction, and one advantage they have over new one is that excitement and hype they bring about themselves when given continuation.

    Take Ash for example? If he was replaced we would never see him grow forward as person and trainer, learning new sides about his personality and quest; such as becoming grown enough to take mentor role to May utilizing knowledge he gained from Misty and Brock to help her out, developing rivalry with Paul through more complex way than he did with Gary, growing as trainer to such degree that he was almost ready to win DP league,

    Because of stay we were able to learn more about Ash character, we got to see him gradually grow making further progress in those sagas. Same applies to TR with longer stay allowing audience to become more attached and connected to their characters learning more about back story, what turn them in persons they became today and their purpose in show going through new directions(such as Jessie becoming coordinator).

    So ill ask again why not do same with Misty, May, Brock etc? Instead of leaving older companions rot forgotten why not for a change invest more in their stories doing continuation?
    Why not take them in new directions utilizing potential they have, do build up on their personalities changing more as persons, and create evolution of friendship between them and Ash character?
    Such as being put on test to see if they can overcome their differences, learn nw things about themselves with bond becoming stronger?

    You can still add new rivals, new pokemon, stories and characters to story but when it comes to main cast instead of constantly adding new characters why not work more with ones you already have?
    Why not break pattern and start reusing older characters injecting new and unpredictable twist to pokemon series, bringing new angle to show which could maintain people interest and reach beyond current audience attracting more older fans toward it?

    More viewers means more customers which watch show and buy merchandize products, which leads to increase of ratings and more money.And if last few years taught us anything is how current approach doesn't achieve this with people not having any reason to stay tuned into show and grow attached to any character losing loyalty, since characters leave so often that it becomes pointless to invest in anyone.

    I'm sorry but I don't understand this at all. It does doesn't make sense to me. Sure the characters go but what they brought in terms of showing the pokemon world as a vibrant, unique, and interesting place is still there (at least until Best Wishes). The idea that there can be contests, different types of trainers, different training ideas, humour or strong connections between siblings never really left the show but instead got shown in different ways. The whole human/pokemon interaction has been shown on a far stronger level thanks to cast changes.
    And all they bring disappears over time after they leave cast. Since they end up forgotten eventually to make room for new companions with any impact they left on story or Ash character being erased in next saga. In other words constant cycling through characters make it seem like they never mattered to this show and how their existence in anime was pointless in first place .
    With stable cast where characters don't get constantly replaced you can create continuity based story which pays attention to its history since you already have characters with groundwork/history behind them allowing to take cast in new, undiscovered directions doing actual sequel.
    You can because of already developed friendship between themselves do build up developing relations and friends exploring world of pokemon, going through new adventures and challenges, having us learn new things about them with very day etc.

    With new cast you can't do sequel because they aren't developed to such point to grow deeper, you can't do build up on friendship because friendship isn't even established yet, you can't have filled with continuity and throwbacks to past adventures story because new cast doesn't have any history, material to work upon behind them. Its basically going from start all over again using repetitive, overused formula of basic growth through which someone who starts out go through.

    Too much of something isn't always good thing, and in pokemon character replacing became so much excessive and often that it caused any previous main characters to end up erased like they never existed and destroyed that little continuity we used to have.

    People are just under false belief how new faces help keep anime "fresh", because older characters can keep show interesting too. Through new outfits, change of style being updated, new pokemon, and new twists and plots to their storyline being taken in new/fresh directions.
    Plenty anime keep same cast maintaining viewers interest and many pokemon fans are growing tired of constant rinse and repeat with new characters, finding pointless to grow attached to characters and invest in them when they are going to leave never to be seen again anyway.

    Many people because of this quit with show, because writers instead of doing balance between older and new only go for new treating previous companions like garbage.

    By keeping characters anime would have more stable cast, more continuity and predisposition to push characters to go on new and bigger things, growing to deeper degree both as characters and trainers(something which isn't possible to do if you constantly replace cast after every few years). It also helps ratings too because that way writers keep older audience but also attract new kids to who older characters are "new"ones because of seeing them for first time(just like they view Ash as new character).

    Also human/pokemon interaction has been showed on stronger level because of writing improvement and change of style. Definitely not because of cast changes, since if Original trio, AG or DP cast have stayed gradual improval in writing would reflect on them just like it was on new characters with interaction becoming stronger.

    [QUOTE]
    Four years is a short amount of time. Learn something new every day.[>/QUOTE]

    To develop someone to deeper degree four years isn't enough because just about when basics are covered with character reaching certain point in his story, he leaves depriving viewers from any chance to see him grow further going on bigger, better things.

    By the fans... therefore not iconic. Iconic | Define Iconic at Dictionary.com To be iconic, she would have to represent the whole show, like Mickey Mouse (Disney's third big star) represents Disney or Fleischer Studios are represented by either Betty Boop (third again) or Popeye (fourth.) I can't be bothered in counting how many stars Warner Bros had before they came across Bugs Bunny but it was a decent amount. To be iconic, she would have to be still showing the show to the non fans after many many many years. (It's hard to say how long tbh.) I'd say that Yugi is the only iconic Yugioh character.
    Than how come original trio is still most recognized and popular cast? Whoever i met and ask about pokemon in majority of cases pokemon was associated with Ash, Misty and Brock, viewing them as cornerstone which promoted whole concept of show worldwide.
    Many older fans are long gone but original trio popularity is still going strong because of older being replaced with new fans who in one way or another got familiar with first traveling companions.
    Nevertheless to them first group is still more iconic than new groups are, simply because they view them as original representatives of show.

    I think I should bring something up. This will be my final point on Takeshi Shudo since I feel that my lack of knowledge is showing. Firstly in response, I never ever heard that he referring to Kasumi as not 'pretty' enough. Secondly, why would the creator of Team Rocket and the writer of the orginal Team Rocket motto: a team of a masculine guy and a feminine girl, call out a protagonist for not being charming if he believed that 'charm' and 'staying true to gender stereotypes' meant the same ruddy thing? Charm | Define Charm at Dictionary.com I don't see nothing here that suggests that and whilst I know we're using translations here, I have seen no complaints about this particular word therefore, I reckon that we have no reason to believe that his idea of charm was a complaint about Kasumi being a tomboy.
    If you didn't noticed he never cared for Misty character. By "lack of charm" he meant how Misty didn't had enough interesting personality or story to be in show,and while he regretted for not strengthening her role he also blatantly made it clear how he never cared much for character.That can be noticed through his thoughts downplaying importance she had, denying any hints of romance coming from her side toward Ash(not like im shipper, but even i cannot deny how hints existed) and making clear how he wanted to replace her long before Johto even started. He always preferred Jessie, James and Meowth over Ash and twerps in main cast , hence explaining why he decided to keep them.
  12. marioluigifan05's Avatar
    I agree with you, how is it fresh when they do it ALL THE TIME? It sucks for people who get attached to certain characters...Tracey was fine with me, not only was he temporary, but I have nothing against him as a character. It's becoming more stale as time goes on, why not work with the ones they have instead of having new character after new character?
  13. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
    This blog gets a 100 / 100, I agree so much, enough is enough, haven't the writers considered that? Other shows (Inazuma Eleven for one, but you said that before) can work with what they have for YEARS, but no, we can't have that with Pokemon. It's all about MONEY! If they would just listen to their loyal fans and bring back older characters (children, who are the target audience, would eat up anything) they could be much better.

    I think you could write a better anime than them.
  14. Caseydia's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain
    This blog gets a 100 / 100, I agree so much, enough is enough, haven't the writers considered that? Other shows (Inazuma Eleven for one, but you said that before) can work with what they have for YEARS, but no, we can't have that with Pokemon. It's all about MONEY! If they would just listen to their loyal fans and bring back older characters (children, who are the target audience, would eat up anything) they could be much better.

    I think you could write a better anime than them.
    Unfortunatly he doesn't write for the anime, so his opinion of why they replace characters a lot doesn't matter. What matters in the kids liking the new and freshness of the characters and the pokemon. I wouldn't want them to keep characters that do nothing all day, so they know what they are doing. This is why yu-gi-oh replaces their casts all the time.
  15. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia
    Unfortunatly he doesn't write for the anime, so his opinion of why they replace characters a lot doesn't matter. What matters in the kids liking the new and freshness of the characters and the pokemon. I wouldn't want them to keep characters that do nothing all day, so they know what they are doing. This is why yu-gi-oh replaces their casts all the time.
    Yet many other shows like Naruto, One Piece, Dinosaur King, Winx ,Ben 10 etc keep same characters being just as, if not even more popular both among older fans and new kids having more continuity, on going plot, more substantial development of already established cast and development of their stories and relationship in more endearing, elevated way. Since unlike in pokemon where characters are repeatedly replaced not having chance to be more fleshed out and go on bigger, better things in other shows writers invest more in already popular, proven to be successful characters doing sequel of what was created before.

    Whatever new companion brings, older one can bring better whether its interaction between characters, pokemon, character development or influence they can leave on plot.

    Instead of ending up at start of every new generation with rehash of what we saw before following another newbie going through predictable, already seen routine of learning basics, experiencing basic growth departing from anime halfway unfinished rinse and repeat.another greenhorn through basic steps all over again.
    It would be infinitely more interesting and positive for this show quality to take already known, popular companion with solid groundwork and build popularity in new directions utilizing potential they have, do build up on their personalities , and create evolution of friendship between them and Ash character. Along with emphasizing more on their backstory, plots, their dreams etc going on higher levels.

    Approach writers are using right now having fragmented continuity, lack of cohesive story and very little attention toward past and previous characters can't sustain itself for much longer.
    Constantly replacing characters in this show serves no purpose other than to discourage people from investing in characters when its already known from start how they will end up forever abandoned and unfinished after departure anyway, being deprived of stable continuity based cast.

    And constant decline in ratings, arise of complaints and visible lose of interest among fanbase is taking its toll showing how current strategy of "dump and bring" isn't optimal move anymore.
  16. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain
    This blog gets a 100 / 100, I agree so much, enough is enough, haven't the writers considered that? Other shows (Inazuma Eleven for one, but you said that before) can work with what they have for YEARS, but no, we can't have that with Pokemon. It's all about MONEY! If they would just listen to their loyal fans and bring back older characters (children, who are the target audience, would eat up anything) they could be much better.

    I think you could write a better anime than them.
    They did exactly what the fans wanted, and the Johto to AG transition was proof of that. After that younger kids came into the series so it didn't matter anyway.
  17. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    They did exactly what the fans wanted, and the Johto to AG transition was proof of that. After that younger kids came into the series so it didn't matter anyway.
    No, not really. No one around time Johto aired demanded cast changes, but better written show. People want/wanted innovations, courage from writers to change approach toward handling of characters and story. Such as having Ash advance forward as trainer without resets being made, investing more in already popular characters doing build up on existing traits and story(like several other shows do) instead of constantly replacing them like they are on assembly line to start all over again with new ones.

    To treat anime as continuity based story with writers staying faithful to it, as well consistent with character development.

    Many fans feel show lost its purpose defeating main message of promoting friendship between protagonists which grow forward when exploring world, and are frustrated that writers instead of directly confronting their problems trying to fix them and make show more appealing through build up on protagonist stories rather choose easier way of sweeping things under the rug.

    That way issues aren't resolved within this show with writers laziness and lack of motivation only being transferred to new regions and characters repeating again same mistakes.

    As saying goes first "you need to clean mess in your own house, before taking actions elsewhere" with constant character replacing not allowing that writers confront directly problems by putting more effort in story and characters, fix flaws did with them and create environment for more meaningful growth investing more in established plots instead of leaving things halfway undone.

    Fact that there are thousands of fans demanding Misty and now Brock return which can be evidenced through various petitions,campaigns on facebook etc, lately for Dawn and May as well serves only as testament to that.
  18. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia
    Unfortunatly he doesn't write for the anime, so his opinion of why they replace characters a lot doesn't matter. What matters in the kids liking the new and freshness of the characters and the pokemon. I wouldn't want them to keep characters that do nothing all day, so they know what they are doing. This is why yu-gi-oh replaces their casts all the time.
    @Caseydia; That is indeed unfortunate, he should be an anime writer, I think he'd be great! At least better than the current writers...
  19. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain
    @Caseydia; That is indeed unfortunate, he should be an anime writer, I think he'd be great! At least better than the current writers...
    While he may be a good writer, the writers themselves know better than a lot of people on this forum.
  20. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    While he may be a good writer, the writers themselves know better than a lot of people on this forum.
    Really it depends on the kind of people you're talking about.
    The writers know better than the people who want a *DARK, MATURE* anime, I agree. As well as the rabid shippers who write nothing more than just...shipping. Almost every other group, not really.

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