Pop-Pop in the Attic: in 3D

I less than three you. Platonically.

Ninja'd. Well... some of your blogs are humorous. Don't know much else, though.

You're fucking awesome.

Originally Posted by Kameil

You're fucking awesome.

What they said.

Why do you like the Johto saga?

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Why do you like the Johto saga?

Don't know how this is an opinion about me, but okay, I can work with this I guess...

As in the games or the anime? Because while Johto is my favorite when it comes to the games, it isn't when it comes to the anime (second to Kanto).

Fuck it, I'll explain both.

I feel I've explained to death why Johto is my favorite region in the games, and why the Gen II games are my favorite, so I'll try to present these reasons in the most tl;dr fashion I can:

G/S/C are the most complete games of the series based on what they had to work with. They squeezed just about all they could out of the GB's capabilities, something they haven't done with later consoles. The games on the GBA were fun (all main-series Pokegames are), but the improvements were mostly visual, and the improvements that weren't were geared to the more competitive Pokemon player (see: not me). And based on what I've seen of B/W, they obviously didn't do everything they could have done with D/P/Pt or HG/SS. Particularly D/P/Pt feels like a guinea pig for then-new ideas rather than a complete game. Is it a solid game? Sure. But it isn't a complete experience.

As for the region itself; it has a flow that makes sense. It doesn't have the overtly themed towns (see: the volcano town, the treehouse town, the icy town, and so on...), and instead feels like a region that has a connective tissue. It also has sublime music.

Now, the anime. I've gone sort of in-depth as pertains to why I prefer the Original Series. But, again a (somewhat) tl;dr version:

I don't take the show seriously. It is a kids' show. It isn't meant to be taken seriously. It isn't meant to be analyzed and reviewed. It is there to perpetuate the Pokemon money-making machine and nothing more. The games are where you find the real quality. The show is schmaltzy and repetitive and dumb; what a kids' show like Pokemon should be. But the Original Series hit America at the tail-end of an era in children's programming where a cartoon could be successful without constant action. If you look at the Original Series, it had a lot of conversation. A lot of just talking. And that allowed the actors to be hilariously self-aware; they knew what they were doing was completely silly, and it showed in their performance (witch actually helped the show in the 90s/early 00s). Now it just sounds like the actors are there for the paycheck. Which, again, is perfectly fine for a kids' show like Pokemon. But for me, I prefer the slightly self-aware. The cheesy Westernization/Americanization of the Original Series dub is something I love as well.

I find it odd that you act like the fad died AFTER Johto. If anything it happened during mid-Johto.

Look at the box office sales of the Johto movies in the U.S. The third movie did so much worse than the first two, (which is understandable, the first two were done during the height of the shows popularity here), and Movies 4 and 5 had to have a limited release in theaters because otherwise they would have never come out besides DVD. The box office sales of the Johto movies alone show that fad of the series declining around late 2001/2002.

I know you have this bizarre aversion to Hoenn (I've read your critiques of the Hoenn Pokemon), as well as to a lesser extent the anime, but I have no idea where you got the idea that 4kids took control of the series in Hoenn. I fail to see how anything in the Hoenn saga was more Americanized than anything from Orange Islands onward, (after Kanto.)

Scott, how is it you can turn anything into a discussion of why you think Hoenn rules and Johto drools?

I didn't say it was more Americanized. I loved the Original Series because it was Westernized/Americanized to a higher level than it is now.

And The fad did die after Johto. Everyone at the school I went to, everyone I know who was a fan, played the games and watched the show up until about 1/2 - all the way through Gen II. But if that is your argument as to why I shouldn't like Johto, I've already won.

Pokemon: The Movie 3 wasn't promoted nearly as heavily as the first two. The budget was cut in half, so they weren't looking to make $70,000,000 domestically. It still made a profit domestically, and that is all that mattered.

The third flick making less has nothing to do with where the whole Pokemon fad ended. So kids didn't get out to the theater; didn't mean they weren't watching the show. In fact, if I recall, Pokemon semi-regularly held the title of #1 rated Sat. morning kids show through Johto. Those are numbers that don't lie.

The fad began to die around half-way through Johto. It was dead by the time Hoenn was in its early episodes.

Also, note; calling someone's taste "bizarre" isn't going to win you any arguments. Especially when I've gone more in-depth than I every really wanted as to why I don't like Hoenn. I explained it thoroughly, I'm all for a point-for-point argument on Gen III, but "you have this bizarre aversion" is not one.

The fad began to die around half-way through Johto. It was dead by the time Hoenn was in its early episodes.

THANK YOU

Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob

I didn't say it was more Americanized. I loved the Original Series because it was Westernized/Americanized to a higher level than it is now.

If you were only referring to Kanto, I'd agree. However Orange Islands and Johto were already Americanized. You seem to imply that Kanto's style of writing continued into Orange and Johto, when we know it didn't. The Japanese culture elements and slapstick comedy Kanto was known for already started disappearing once Orange started and was eradicated mostly when Johto began.

This is why the paper fans disappeared, Kanto's violence was toned down, Misty/Jessie stopped slapping around their male companions, etc.

And The fad did die after Johto. Everyone at the school I went to, everyone I know who was a fan, played the games and watched the show up until about 1/2 - all the way through Gen II.

True, but like yourself, most people stopped watching in the middle of the Johto arc. I can recall how many times I've heard people say, "I stopped watching in the middle of Johto," and then when they get back into the series later on, they're surprised to see how much changed.

You're implying most people watched the Johto arc in its entirety, when in face most people faltered out halfway through.

That implies people had already lost interest in the series and the fad was dead before Johto even ended.

The third flick making less has nothing to do with where the whole Pokemon fad ended. So kids didn't get out to the theater; didn't mean they weren't watching the show. In fact, if I recall, Pokemon semi-regularly held the title of #1 rated Sat. morning kids show through Johto. Those are numbers that don't lie.

That's funny. Plenty of kids managed to convince their parents to take them to the first and second movies at the time. I wonder why the third one didn't get the same thing, most likely because at that point most kids were already drifting from pokemon.

Movies 4 and 5 had to be limited releases in theaters for this reason. There's a reason why Miramax distributed those films instead of WB.

Pokemon was also one of the highest rated shows on KidsWB when the Hoenn saga was airing too. The only difference is Yu-gi-oh was also incredibly popular at the time, so it would often compete for the top spot.

I remember when KidsWb canceled Pokemon for the first time, people were shocked, and eventually it was discovered they dropped it because they knew the voice cast wasn't returning for Season 9. Then CN picked it up.

The fad began to die around half-way through Johto. It was dead by the time Hoenn was in its early episodes.

And what is this implying? Most series fad status do not last beyond the initial 2-3 years.

Look at Power Rangers and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles during their heyday. Both these franchises are still around, but they were never the phenomenons they were during the first 3-4 years of their lifecycle.

I also don't understand why you're acting like there was some huge shift in the demographic as if this was or was not expected. Kids who were 10 years old when Kanto were airing are now in their 20's. I don't think the writers ever intended to expect most fans to follow the series for 13+ years.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

True, but like yourself, most people stopped watching in the middle of the Johto arc. I can recall how many times I've heard people say, "I stopped watching in the middle of Johto," and then when they get back into the series later on, they're surprised to see how much changed.

I watched the series up until the last Johto episode. That was the story I gave two shits about, because even though I was a bit too old to be drawn into a kids' show at the time, I had invested years of my time into those characters and I felt the need to finish off that story, even if I only saw the show as base, so-bad-it's-good entertainment by then.

You're implying most people watched the Johto arc in its entirety, when in face most people faltered out halfway through.

And that has nothing to do with the quality of the show or the games the show was based on. Popularity doesn't dictate quality. As a kids' show, Pokemon has always been about the same. But as a kids' show that had moments that could attract an older audience at times, the Original Series was the best at that. Again, self-aware actors make for universally funny moments. Robotic actors can be placed in a mindless show for kids and do fine, but it ain't gonna appeal to me. That isn't a bad thing, as it isn't supposed to appeal to me. But that doesn't mean I can't have my own opinions on it.

That implies people had already lost interest in the series and the fad was dead before Johto even ended.

In a sense it had, but it wasn't because of Johto, and it certainly wasn't because of any writing trends. It was simply and example of the way fads work. I've never understood what compels people to question and critique the writing of a kids' show like Pokemon. It isn't the Animaniacs. The Pokemon anime is there to get kids to beg their parents to buy Pokemon merchandise. Nothing more, nothing less. Trying to tell people that one arc is better than another is fucking stupid, because the show is shit and always will be shit.

That's funny. Plenty of kids managed to convince their parents to take them to the first and second movies at the time. I wonder why the third one didn't get the same thing, most likely because at that point most kids were already drifting from pokemon.

Well, yeah. But kids could watch their Pokemon for free on TV. So the ratings stayed high. Kids still liked Pokemon enough during the Johto seasons to keep it, off and on, at #1.

I also don't understand why you're acting like there was some huge shift in the demographic as if this was or was not expected. Kids who were 10 years old when Kanto were airing are now in their 20's. I don't think the writers ever intended to expect most fans to follow the series for 13+ years.

I don't bitch about the (lack of) demographic shift:

Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob Overanalyzes (originally to be a column in National Bulbagraphic)

Because to be fair, these changes in tone didn't simply materialize instantaneously. It wasn't a sudden shift after the transition of control occurred. They truly began during the mid-late Advanced Generation period. When 4Kids was handling the show at a time when the phenomenon had just begun dwindling and a new generation of kids were watching. It became their show. Something tailored specifically for a new wave of tastes, and that didn't include shoehorning jokes for the older cats who may be watching. That is perfectly fine, and that is my point. Regardless of what you think about how the anime is handled now, you must understand that as long as the show continues it will change with the current generation of kids in mind. It would have changed in the same fashion (sans voice actors) if 4Kids still was at the helm. And that is what a good children's program does; accomodate its ever-changing audience.

I've never once questioned the writers or the direction of the show. Because that is fruitless bitching. It is a show for kids, and their tastes dictates where the show goes.

Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob

I watched the series up until the last Johto episode. That was the story I gave two shits about, because even though I was much too old to be drawn into a kids' show at the time, I had invested years of my time into those characters and I felt the need to finish off that story,

That's interesting. I could have sworn I read a post from you in the anime section a couple months back where you said you stopped watching when the Master Quest portion of Johto was airing.

And as said, what story did they finish? The only thing Johto gave a conclusion to was the Ash/Gary rivalry. Brock did not get wrapped up till 8 years later, Ash/TR are still around, and Misty just wound up being phased out.

Johto wasn't a good conclusion to the series, but the good thing is it wasn't intended to be the shows conclusion anyway.

And that has nothing to do with the quality of the show or the games the show was based on. Popularity doesn't dictate quality. As a kids' show, Pokemon has always been about the same. But as a kids' show that had moments that could attract an older audience at times, the Original Series was the best at that. Again, self-aware actors make for universally funny moments. Robotic actors can be placed in a mindless show for kids and do fine, but it ain't gonna appeal to me. That isn't a bad thing, as it isn't supposed to appeal to me. But that doesn't mean I can't have my own opinions on it.

There's no problem with that. I don't even care about the whole VA debate, I'm just wondering why you think some episodes appealed to older fans more than others.

Nothing more, nothing less. Trying to tell people that one arc is better than another is fucking stupid, because the show is shit and always will be shit.

Yet you'll sit there watching at least 280 episodes of said show. Why didn't you stop watching after Kanto ended, then? Orange Islands and Johto hardly develop the main cast further than what Kanto did.

Well, yeah. But kids could watch their Pokemon for free on TV. So the ratings stayed high. Kids still liked Pokemon enough during the Johto seasons to keep it, off and on, at #1.

Pokemon has ALWAYS remained one of the big staples of KidsWB's lineup. The only show that challenged it at the time was Yu-gi-oh, which I recall didn't start until around 2003.

It didn't help matters that KidsWB itself died only 2 years after they canceled Pokemon, when the CW started.

I've never once questioned the writers or the direction of the show. Because that is fruitless bitching. It is a show for kids, and their tastes dictates where the show goes.

So then why are you so adamant about this? There would be no reason to make huge blog posts about the direction of the Pokemon series if you had little to no interest in it.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

And as said, what story did they finish? The only thing Johto gave a conclusion to was the Ash/Gary rivalry. Brock did not get wrapped up till 8 years later, Ash/TR are still around, and Misty just wound up being phased out.

If the series just ended, and didn't continue through to Hoenn, it would have been fine. Dudes hung out, dudes traveled around a country, dudes split up when they got back home. That is all the "character development" a show like Pokemon needs. So when I stopped watching, I didn't feel the need to continue. It wasn't a show geared at me anymore. A long-running show that is geared at an ever-shifting demographic is going to be sparse on the development of characters because they have to reintroduce them every 2-3 years.

There's no problem with that. I don't even care about the whole VA debate, I'm just wondering why you think some episodes appealed to older fans more than others.

I hate being a broken record, but; self-aware actors, for one. And episodes like Go West, Young Meowth, which had a shit load of references to classic actors like Bogart and Hepburn and Stewart and Davis. I actually like that episode more now. In fact, it is my favorite episode.

Yet you'll sit there watching at least 280 episodes of said show. Why didn't you stop watching after Kanto ended, then? Orange Islands and Johto hardly develop the main cast further than what Kanto did.

Again, why analyze the show? It isn't meant to have any real deep "character development".

So then why are you so adamant about this? There would be no reason to make huge blog posts about the direction of the Pokemon series if you had little to no interest in it.

Well, if you read that blog you'd notice it is more me complaining about people over analyzing the show than anything. I'm saying there is no point in bitching about character development or writing because the show is meant to be looked at like that. It is advertising, really.

Hell, I even titled the blog post "YeOldeJacob Overanalyzes"... how much more obvious can I be?

Oh, and you are the one that brought this up. You are the one being adamant about your opinion. I'm going; "Dude, I don't care which you think is the best arc. It is just a kids' show, man. I use the analytical part of my brain for good shows."

Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob

Hell, I even titled the blog post "YeOldeJacob Overanalyzes"... how much more obvious can I be?

Oh, and you are the one that brought this up. You are the one being adamant about your opinion. I'm going; "Dude, I don't care which you think is the best arc. It is just a kids' show, man. I use the analytical part of my brain for good shows."

Usually when people have no interest in a series, they don't bother writing huge critiques of it. They just don't bother with it and don't care.

When you see people writing huge rants/critiques/blogs/reviews of a certain franchise, said person usually cares enough to actually warrant doing so.

If you were a Pokemon game-only fan and didn't care about the anime at all, I would understand. But you care about the anime to warrant these type of posts, and others you've said in the past, especially when you frequented the anime section regularly. Whether you realize it or not, you're complaining about the current anime because its still something that bugs you, and its mostly about how the series changed. Otherwise you would just drop it like that and not bother to still talk about it.

And why am I bringing this up? This blog asked for brutally honest opinions of you. Since I don't know you very well, I've decided to address your thoughts about the Pokemon series instead. Not to mention that critique of the post-Johto Pokemon that you published on Bulbapedia, which if I recall, got a huge amount of disagreement from users in that thread.

Just curious, if 4kids still dubbed Pokemon to date and the voices never changed, yet the show's "story" and characters were still the same as they played out, what would you think then?

As long as they were still having flairs of being aware of their own silliness, I'd still watch it.

I understand why you brought this up, it is just bringing it up, then saying I'm the one being all adamant in my (lack-of, really) opinion is kinda silly.

And that blog post was more a critique on this fandom than anything else. I just used the anime to do it. People are more apt to read that and respond somewhat civilly than if I had posted "YOU'S ALL BEIN' STUPID".

And yeah, people haven't liked my columns on Bulbanews. I didn't expect people too. Compared to the fandom in general, I have very different opinions of the Pokemon franchise. In fact, if you ask that Slowflake cat on YouTube, my writings sparked "universal outrage". If only that was true; I'd be so proud.