The reception of the Johto saga in the anime, and why it was the shows downfall - Blogs - Bulbagarden Forums

View RSS Feed

The Fighting Misty

The reception of the Johto saga in the anime, and why it was the shows downfall

Rate this Entry
by , 11th March 2013 at 01:53 PM (6511 Views)
I notice a lot of people are putting up similar themed blogs about the older seasons, the reception of the anime's popularity in the U.S., and/or the original trio. So here's my take on it. Yes this is going to be a "too long, didn't read," but I know some people are going to read the whole thing merely out of curiosity (and to understand what the hell goes on inside my head), and why I have such great dislike for this arc over the last 10 years. Here we go, folks:

Back in 1999, the Pokemon anime was at the height of its popularity in the US. The last chunk of Kanto episodes were airing on TV at the time and Orange Islands would start shortly after. While the Brock/Tracey switch disappointed some people at the time, (I didn't mind Tracey myself, although Brock was better before he got stale in later arcs), Orange Islands was still a much loved arc and a nice bridge between gens. Then came the Johto saga....and the show could officially be considered, "jumping the shark."

I remember when Johto was airing for the first time in the U.S., all the original Kanto/Orange Islands fans started to lose interest in the show. Kanto and Orange Islands was considered the, "Golden age" of the anime, while Johto was not included in that. While the very beginning of Johto Journies was well received, it didn't take long for people to realize that Johto was starting to seem dumbed down compared to Kanto, with the sense of darkness and plot (by Pokemon standards) that Kanto had was disappearing. Most people originally lost interest by the time Charizard left and after Goldenrod City eps aired, and after that we knew the show would never be the same again.

This is when the shows ratings started declining for the first time, and the 3 Johto movies completely bombed in U.S. theaters. If you check the box office sales for the movies in the U.S., there was a staggering drop between Movies 2 and 3...as if half the kid audience who saw the first two movies didn't bother to see the third. WB actually stopped distributing the movies in theaters because of these poor sales, and 4kids had to partner with Miramax just to get the 4th and 5th into limited releases. Those movies bombed in theaters too, so they just gave up after that and went the DVD route.

A large chunk of the original, old-school Kanto/Orange fanbase from 1998 never watched all of Johto in its original run. Many of them stopped watching in the middle, and most never even knew that Misty left. I remember we were in the year 2004 or 2005, and people were asking, "Wait, where did Misty go?" as if they were just discovering she was gone for the first time. Why? Because so many people had stopped watching halfway into Johto, that they never even made it to the tail-end to see Misty left. Those who did survive the entirety of Johto was more than happy to see it end, and I'll get to that in a minute.

The end of Johto was with much celebration in the anime. After sitting through 3 long years of the same region with nothing but endless filler comprising the majority of it, many of us thought the show was going to remain as stagnant as it was for eternity. When the first news of the AG series started coming in for the first time, it became obvious that AG was being written in a way to address many of the complaints of the Johto saga, but first let me get to Takeshi Shudo.

The reason for the loss of quality in writing during Johto was because Takeshi Shudo, who was the head writer of the original series, stepped down halfway into Johto. He was the main writer and series constructor of the first two seasons, and why Kanto feels so much better than other arcs, the man knew what made Pokemon good. You can read Shudo's blogs that the moderator Musashi posted, where Shudo actually quit the show because he was disgusted by the direction Johto was going in. He envisioned the Pokemon anime of having a decent plot and direction like Kanto did, and to watch the show decay into nonsense repetition must have been painful for him. Shudo knew that the series went downhill, and he felt like he could no longer be a part of it, so he stepped down and left. The rest of the writers didn't know what the hell to do during Johto, so they just filled it with repetitive filler until the R/S games came out. If Takeshi Shudo actually stayed on, Johto might have turned out much differently. Johto would have likely been more like Kanto was, and the cast would have never been flanderized.

Shudo is also the person who made the decision to remove Misty from the anime. It says a lot that the main writer of the original series, and the creator of the anime-version of Misty's personality, didn't seem to think she was a good female protagonist. Again, you can read what Shudo thought about Misty in his blogs posted by the moderator Musashi. This might account to why Misty's character was so neglected over the course of her run as a protagonist. It didn't seem like the writers wanted to make her a prominent character, so after her personality was somewhat flanderized by Togepi making her all motherly, the writers just seemed to keep her around until they had the first opportunity to drop her, which was the first time a female lead was in the games from the start, which they did. I'd even wager to say that she was Shudo's least favorite character of the original Kanto cast, given Ash/Brock/Team Rocket are all in literally double the amount of episodes that she was. After Shudo quit, it didn't seem any of the other writers had much interest in the character either, because her departure as we can see now, really was quite permanent. Even her cameos/guest appearances have dwindled down to nothing, and her last real appearance in an episode was all the way back in 2005.

To get back to Johto in general, it seems like the writers are well aware of its reception in its original run. Most of the mistakes of Johto were never repeated in the following arcs, and a lot of its plots and characters, and even Ash's Johto Pokemon, were purposely buried with little to no screentime or returns in the following arcs.

For a detailed view of the flaws of the Johto saga, I typed them up here:

- Johto did away with the sense of darkness and plot that Kanto had. All the reasons people loved Kanto could not be found in Johto. Even the slapstick humor and comedy disappeared for the most part.

- The GS ball plot being dropped was obviously a huge flaw

- Charizard and Squirtle leaving, while not being a big deal now, back when it originally happened felt like a huge slap in the face. To see Ash get rid of his classic Kanto starters and make it look like they were going the way of Pidgeot caused a lot of people to quit Johto. At the time we didn't know if Charizard/Squirtle would ever come back, so we thought Ash was going to continue releasing all his Pokemon.

- Ash's Johto team was just handled poorly. Heracross was dropped after only 30 episodes, Chikorita was his only evolution, and Totodile/Noctowl spent the majority of its run doing absolutely nothing but rotting in their balls. Cyndaquil also should have evolved back here. Coming after Kanto, the Johto team made Ash look really weak.

- Gary only appears in 3 episodes prior to the league. Why the writers decided to have Gary never show up is beyond me, since Ash needed to compete with a rival in Johto who didn't exist 90% of the time.

- Misty gets very little screentime and development in this saga, not only compared to her Kanto/Orange self, but compared to everything the female protagonists do after her.

- Misty/Brock only capture one new pokemon each this saga. It got hard to care about their pokemon when the writers wouldn't even have them capture pokemon to begin with.

- Way too many bad, tedious fillers that all followed the same plot. Johto began the, "Ash helps a trainer with a problem, Team Rocket steal Pikachu" formula and it went on the entire region with only a few rare exceptions.

- Little to no character development for the main cast. By the time Johto ended, Ash/Misty/Brock felt almost exactly the same as they were in the first Johto episode besides the different Pokemon. Gary was the only character to go through a bit of change.

- The Gym battles while handled better than Kanto, weren't really anything to write home about.

- No new rivals or characters introduced. Casey was treated like a joke, no new major characters at all.

- Although this one is minor, the gang should have gotten new clothes in Johto. The cast got boring to look at since they had the same Kanto clothes.

This is the most flawed arc of the entire anime.


So, really, where does this leave us now in the year 2013? The reason why the anime changed so much after Johto was because of these reasons. This is also likely why the original trio never was reunited, not even for a single episode or special, even after these last 10 years. While some people do like the Johto saga, I'm sure they're not oblivious to its flaws as I've detailed in depth.

I know there will be people who disagree with this blog, and that is perfectly fine. If you liked the Johto saga, more power to you. I just want everyone to know, THIS saga is the reason that caused the huge revamp/re-tooling of the anime, and why Johto to this day represented the end of the writers using the original cast and formula.

(And before anyone asks, it only took me 10 minutes to type up this entire thing. I basically posting the same things over and over again over these last 10 years so I already know what I am going to say in detail.) Indeed.

Submit "The reception of the Johto saga in the anime, and why it was the shows downfall" to Digg Submit "The reception of the Johto saga in the anime, and why it was the shows downfall" to del.icio.us Submit "The reception of the Johto saga in the anime, and why it was the shows downfall" to StumbleUpon Submit "The reception of the Johto saga in the anime, and why it was the shows downfall" to Google

Categories
Uncategorized

Comments

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
  1. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    [Since I can't do commentaries, I'll just respond here.]

    (- Johto did away with the sense of darkness and plot that Kanto had. All the reasons people loved Kanto could not be found in Johto. Even the slapstick humor and comedy disappeared for the most part.)

    No, it actually didn't. Other than darkness, it still had plot and comedy.

    (- The GS ball plot being dropped was obviously a huge flaw)

    Agreed, but not that big of a deal to me.

    (- Charizard and Squirtle leaving, while not being a big deal now, back when it originally happened felt like a huge slap in the face. To see Ash get rid of his classic Kanto starters and make it look like they were going the way of Pidgeot caused a lot of people to quit Johto. At the time we didn't know if Charizard/Squirtle would ever come back, so we thought Ash was going to continue releasing all his Pokemon.)

    Most of us knew they'd come back.

    (- Ash's Johto team was just handled poorly. Heracross was dropped after only 30 episodes, Chikorita was his only evolution, and Totodile/Noctowl spent the majority of its run doing absolutely nothing but rotting in their balls. Cyndaquil also should have evolved back here. Coming after Kanto, the Johto team made Ash look really weak.)

    Evolution doesn't make a team god. Cyndaquil was good enough as is, same with Noctowl. Totodile, while mostly comedy relief, took on Kindgra in the Whirl Cup. Sure, it lost to Whitney, but this IS Miltank we're talking about. Agreed on Heracross, but it did come back for the Silver Conference.

    (- Gary only appears in 3 episodes prior to the league. Why the writers decided to have Gary never show up is beyond me, since Ash needed to compete with a rival in Johto who didn't exist 90% of the time.)

    Quality is not quantity.

    (- Misty gets very little screentime and development in this saga, not only compared to her Kanto/Orange self, but compared to everything the female protagonists do after her.)

    Look above.

    (- Misty/Brock only capture one new pokemon each this saga. It got hard to care about their pokemon when the writers wouldn't even have them capture pokemon to begin with.)

    Some of their old ones evolved.

    (- Way too many bad, tedious fillers that all followed the same plot. Johto began the, "Ash helps a trainer with a problem, Team Rocket steal Pikachu" formula and it went on the entire region with only a few rare exceptions.)

    There were episodes like that in Kanto.

    (- Little to no character development for the main cast. By the time Johto ended, Ash/Misty/Brock felt almost exactly the same as they were in the first Johto episode besides the different Pokemon. Gary was the only character to go through a bit of change.)

    Maybe Brock, but not Misty and Ash.

    (- The Gym battles while handled better than Kanto, weren't really anything to write home about.)

    That should be a plus.

    (- No new rivals or characters introduced. Casey was treated like a joke, no new major characters at all.)

    Not every region does have to introduce new rivals and characters, they kept the ones from Kanto, isn't that enough? Though Kamon should have been in it...

    (- Although this one is minor, the gang should have gotten new clothes in Johto. The cast got boring to look at since they had the same Kanto clothes.)

    Who cares about clothes lol
    speedingbulletbill likes this.
    Updated 11th March 2013 at 03:51 PM by Misty Calls Masquerain
  2. Hidden Mew's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    What sense of darkness in Kanto are you talking about? Kanto was lighthearted, especially with the slapstick humor, and the plot was basically Ash and his friends traveling around capturing Pokemon to get to the Pokemon League. That's basically what happened in Johto too, except with different Pokemon and a different League. While Ash's Johto team wasn't as handled as well as it could have been, I'm not sure if it made him look weak when nearly all of the Gym battles were better than almost all of the Gym battles in Kanto and the Orange Islands arc.

    Charizard's departure episode was one of my favorite episodes in Johto. It didn't feel like a slap in a face to see them go, but rather left a sense of progression for them to see both go off to do their own thing. Charizard training with other Charizard would be a faster way of getting stronger than if it had stayed with Ash this whole time and Squirtle went off to help put out fires. That sounded more helpful to them, and in Squirtle's case more helpful to other people/Pokemon in need, than staying around with Ash. It may help that I didn't mind Ash releasing his Pokemon most of the time since in pretty much every case, except for maybe Primeape, it would be more helpful for the Pokemon to leave than to stay with Ash. In retrospect, I wish that they had left Ash's older Pokemon at Professor Oak's just so that he could get the starters sooner and the writers would have had more time to work on them. Bulbasuar was there for way too long, especially when it didn't do anything outside of helping with Vine Whip and being used as bit of a running gag with Heracross.

    While both Totodile and Noctowl suffered the most out of his Johto Pokemon, Totodile had more personality than Squirtle did and Noctowl's one Gym battle is more than anything Pidgeotto ever did. They really should have used Noctowl's Confusion attack more often though. Bayleaf and Cyndaquil, while not powerhouses, were still good battlers. I agree that Cyndaquil should have evolved during Johto instead of DP though. While it would have been nice for Gary to show up more, especially so that his change at the end of the Johto League would feel more natural, I don't know if it really hurt Ash to not have a rival to bounce off of. Gary barely appeared in Kanto too and he didn't have one in the Orange Islands, so Gary barely appearing wasn't really a new flaw. I was glad that they tone down Gary's attitude in his few appearances just because he was annoying in Kanto.

    Dropping the GS plot was bad, but it really didn't bother me that much. Most of the fillers weren't really that bad either. There were a few bad ones, but for me, they were few and far in between. They mainly ranged from decent to great for the most part. Misty and Brock could have used more screentime, but I thought that Ash made some progress by the end of Johto give how his skills as a trainer were generally better.

    Given how BW has turned out, I hesitate to say that Johto is the most flawed arc. It does have plenty of flaws, but I'm not sure if it's really worse than BW in that regard, especially when BW lacks the decent to good battles and Pokemon with more personalities. Even if Johto was better received, they probably would have made changes anyway just to market new features in the games and to shake up the status quo.
  3. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew
    What sense of darkness in Kanto are you talking about? Kanto was lighthearted, especially with the slapstick humor, and the plot was basically Ash and his friends traveling around capturing Pokemon to get to the Pokemon League.
    Kanto had some elements like real handguns, some characters dying (in the Mewtwo movie), some blood (Misty scrapes her arm crawling through thorns), and Team Rocket using bazooka's and bombs that *didn't* turn into nets and so forth. Granted this stuff disappeared when Orange Islands rolled along, even before Johto.

    Probably had to do with the fact that this is when Pokemon became popular in the U.S., and they had to do with the series being re-tooled for American audiences.
  4. Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    I forgot which episode it was, but one Johto episode had blood, and I think they showed blood in a Sinnoh episode too.
  5. Hidden Mew's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Kanto had some elements like real handguns, some characters dying (in the Mewtwo movie), some blood (Misty scrapes her arm crawling through thorns), and Team Rocket using bazooka's and bombs that *didn't* turn into nets and so forth. Granted this stuff disappeared when Orange Islands rolled along, even before Johto.

    Probably had to do with the fact that this is when Pokemon became popular in the U.S., and they had to do with the series being re-tooled for American audiences.

    Other than the real handguns and characters dying in the Mewtwo movie, that doesn't really sound particularly dark. Blood showing from Misty scraping her arm while crawling through thorns or when Meowth scratched people wasn't really that dark. Team Rocket using bazooka and bombs wasn't really different from other villains doing the same thing, so I don't think that's really dark. They most likely toned that down after the series became popular in the U.S. Still, I wouldn't really consider Kanto having a sense of darkness per say and the stuff that you mentioned already disappeared by the time Orange Islands started.
    HumanDawn likes this.
  6. Nymphia's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    I think that the horrile writing of Johto caused the anime to evade doing things and they try to evade doing it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    -The GS ball plot being dropped was obviously a huge flaw
    There were a reason why all the arcs that start ends in some point (except the myusteries of the anime to reveal at the very end). and there werre any scrapped arc in the middle of it. The iggest exception (and this was way worse) was the Plasma vs Rocket episodes ut there's a reason of it: The most powerful earthquake of the history of Japan happening when the episodes are supposed to air.

    -
    Charizard and Squirtle leaving, while not being a big deal now, back when it originally happened felt like a huge slap in the face. To see Ash get rid of his classic Kanto starters and make it look like they were going the way of Pidgeot caused a lot of people to quit Johto. At the time we didn't know if Charizard/Squirtle would ever come back, so we thought Ash was going to continue releasing all his Pokemon.
    This is why since then, all the pokemon that leaves Ash put them in the Oak laboratory. To evade more releases. And this is why there are only two releases since then.

    -
    Ash's Johto team was just handled poorly. Heracross was dropped after only 30 episodes, Chikorita was his only evolution, and Totodile/Noctowl spent the majority of its run doing absolutely nothing but rotting in their balls. Cyndaquil also should have evolved back here. Coming after Kanto, the Johto team made Ash look really weak.
    I have to agree on that part. I think that the only team who could e so bad developed was the Unova team for marketing and overpopulation (the writers can't treat 10 pokemon on the cast well)

    -
    Gary only appears in 3 episodes prior to the league. Why the writers decided to have Gary never show up is beyond me, since Ash needed to compete with a rival in Johto who didn't exist 90% of the time.
    More minor, ut yes, it is a problem.

    -
    Misty gets very little screentime and development in this saga, not only compared to her Kanto/Orange self, but compared to everything the female protagonists do after her.
    Misty gets more screentime in Johto than in Kanto Speciually in Master quest.

    -
    Misty/Brock only capture one new pokemon each this saga. It got hard to care about their pokemon when the writers wouldn't even have them capture pokemon to begin with.
    Misty and rock's team (specially Brock's) was treated horribly in all of their run until AG (in Brock's case). When the players see a Zubat they aren't related this Zubat to the anime like other pokemon were.

    -
    Way too many bad, tedious fillers that all followed the same plot. Johto began the, "Ash helps a trainer with a problem, Team Rocket steal Pikachu" formula and it went on the entire region with only a few rare exceptions.
    I count the Jophto League Champion seasons, and counting episodes like the Duplica one, the Aya one, the Todd mini-arc non filler I count 28 fillers in those season. I actually count more fillers in that season than in all of Sinnoh (and unless the post-N is 20 fillers BW is going to have less than this season). And Hoenn was the same or less fillers than Johto. The only season that was ad in fillers after Johto was the season 8 at the start and at the end.

    -
    The Gym battles while handled better than Kanto, weren't really anything to write home about.
    And the League was a very well written league (for me it's the opposite of Unova). This sis a improvement.

    -
    No new rivals or characters introduced. Casey was treated like a joke, no new major characters at all.
    Right. Specially none of the games that they are promoting (or very few)
  7. Insanish Danish's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    I actually liked Johto, but you really can't deny that the writing got better afterwards. Whether you like the newer or older parts of the anime is completely based on opinion, but the writing has definitely strengthened since the Johto days.
  8. CrackFox's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    This is the most flawed arc of the entire anime.
    I'd have to disagree. I personally found Johto much less flawed than Kanto or OI. Obviously everyone looks at things differently, i'm not saying you don't have some valid points either. I agree Johto was often quite mundane and it did have a record number of filler episodes, but I think it had plenty of good points too. When I think about Johto, I picture better animation and Pokemon with more personality, lots of filler episodes that seemed to go nowhere but that were filled with comedy and pleasant character interaction. The only thing I could call Johto out on specifically, was the lack of interesting Gym leaders.
  9. Zeta's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    I think when you wrote darkness you meant "stakes". Kanto had a sense of stakes. Not necessarily a threat of personal harm, but rather the sense that what was happening mattered. There was some semblance of an arc going on for nearly all the characters, and even for some of the Pokemon. That was dropped in Johto for the repetitive Filler-O-Rama.
  10. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta
    I think when you wrote darkness you meant "stakes". Kanto had a sense of stakes. Not necessarily a threat of personal harm, but rather the sense that what was happening mattered. There was some semblance of an arc going on for nearly all the characters, and even for some of the Pokemon. That was dropped in Johto for the repetitive Filler-O-Rama.
    Yeah, I agree. I think it also mattered that back in Kanto it felt like Giovanni was going to be a major recurring villain of the show, or that the main cast would continually develop and so forth. Even though Kanto did have some crap episodes from time to time, it at least felt like it had a direction and was a series. Orange Islands was a decent follow-up, only a few bad episodes and Tracey was just kinda there, but he was short-lived anway.

    But even as soon as you get about 10 episodes into Johto...the whole show just feels, "off." Anyone can watch Johto episodes side by side with Kanto episodes and the show feels nothing alike...even the "original trio" is not the same. We all noticed this back in 2001....over 14 years ago. And this is before we knew the show would go on for 16 years or whatever...
  11. Hidden Mew's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Yeah, I agree. I think it also mattered that back in Kanto it felt like Giovanni was going to be a major recurring villain of the show, or that the main cast would continually develop and so forth. Even though Kanto did have some crap episodes from time to time, it at least felt like it had a direction and was a series. Orange Islands was a decent follow-up, only a few bad episodes and Tracey was just kinda there, but he was short-lived anway.'
    I don't know if I ever got the impression that Giovanni was going to be a major recurring villain. He didn't really appear that often until the later parts of Kanto anyway. I did think that the main cast would stay the same for the most part, but I'm glad that they didn't. They needed to shake things up and keeping the original cast for every series would have been a mistake. If they aren't willing to get rid of Ash, which they aren't, then at least putting new characters in the main cast can add something new in each new series. Kanto had plenty of weak episodes and it wasn't a separate series. The three arcs were part of one series. The Orange Islands was pretty boring. Aside from the Charizard learning to listen to Ash, Tracey capturing Scyther and Ash vs. Drake, the episodes were usually either boring or just nothing to get excited about. Tracey was pretty much in the background, but still a fairly likable character.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    But even as soon as you get about 10 episodes into Johto...the whole show just feels, "off." Anyone can watch Johto episodes side by side with Kanto episodes and the show feels nothing alike...even the "original trio" is not the same. We all noticed this back in 2001....over 14 years ago. And this is before we knew the show would go on for 16 years or whatever...
    I think that you're using your opinions to speak for others again. Honestly, I don't remember thinking that back when Johto started airing on Kids' WB. I was just excited to see new episodes and new Pokemon. I do clearly remember wondering when Ash would get his next badge a few times, mainly during the Johto League Champions season, but that only lasted for a little while before getting interested in some of the filler episodes again. Johto has its fair share of flaws and I think that it definitely could have improved, but I think it was an improvement over Kanto and the Orange Islands. The Pokemon had more personalities, the Gym battles were better, the Johto League was immensely better than what we got in the Kanto Pokemon League, Misty and Brock had a bit more focus, although still not much in the grand scheme of things and Ash actually seemed like he improved as a trainer by the end. Though, perhaps it helps that I don't particularly think that the Kanto season is really that great compared to other fans and I personally think that it's completely overrated. It's still enjoyable and has some nice nostalgia, but it isn't what I consider to be Pokemon at its best or the best part out of any of the anime series, or even the original series for that matter.
    HumanDawn likes this.
  12. Bluelatios's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Gliscor'd, here's the "hell" in your head that I want to know. Why do you fight so hard for your own opinions? Why is it so important for you to make sure every person who talks about anime on the forum knows how you feel? Why is it so important to you that you try to get them to agree with you, even to the point where conversations go in circles? And lastly, why have you done the same routine for so many years? I just don't see the point of everything you do Gliscor'd. I'm not up for yet another debate here, I just want some real answers.
  13. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelatios
    Gliscor'd, here's the "hell" in your head that I want to know. Why do you fight so hard for your own opinions? Why is it so important for you to make sure every person who talks about anime on the forum knows how you feel? Why is it so important to you that you try to get them to agree with you, even to the point where conversations go in circles? And lastly, why have you done the same routine for so many years? I just don't see the point of everything you do Gliscor'd. I'm not up for yet another debate here, I just want some real answers.
    Funny thing is I would probably never post these things if I didn't see people so adamant about arguing about why the anime changed after Johto and actually thinking they can "petition" to get things back the way they were before. The show is aimed at Japanese schoolchildren, everyone on this forum outgrew the anime a long time ago. But people still watch because they genuinely enjoy it.

    For the people who don't like the anime anymore, its best to just let it go and stop watching, and just re-live the older episodes. The mere fact that people DID stick around for the anime after all this time says enough in itself.

    And lastly, the anime isn't about Misty or Brock or the original trio.
    Caseydia likes this.
  14. Bluelatios's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    But is it really right to force that onto them? I mean, not everyone thinks that it really is aimed exclusively to schoolchildren. Not everyone thinks that things can't be at least partially the way it was in the past if Pokemon were to deem it beneficial. Man, its one thing to voice an opinion and explain your position. Its another to try to drill it into others who might be just as deep rooted in their point of view as you are in yours. Almost every time you get involved with these types of discussions, at least from my perspective, you always seem to come off as angry, or arrogant, or trolling. Is it right to argue negatively until one side grows tired instead of having an open-minded conversation and to be willing to simply agree to disagree when necessary?
    pokemon fan 132 likes this.
  15. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    The point is then why are they ranting? I don't think anyone really cares in the year 2013 about people whining about the original trio. Its utterly absurd and makes no sense. The series has moved on, and the writers never depended on either Misty or Brock to carry the show. At this point the writers could have any character be a travel companion and it makes no difference.

    I just cannot imagine what it must have been for some people to waste 10 years of their life thinking about this. Are they going to spend the next 10 years thinking about this? When people are in their 30's and 40's, are they still going to think about this?
  16. Bluelatios's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Ya know, some people (myself included) believe that Pokemon can't keep doing the same thing forever. That one day, if that day isn't already here, Pokemon would fail to remain popular long-term if its really marketed only to children. That no maybe it isn't dependent on any plot or character, but it is dependent on maintaining a strong fanbase and those elements may be used to help accomplish that. Will people still think about this during the next 10 years? I don't think anyone knows the answer to that. Maybe the show will change in that time and then we'll know. But I want to ask you the same thing, are you still going to think about this for the next 10 years? Do you get into these conversations because you want to, or because you feel you have to? Is it your place to tell people what they can and can't think?
    Updated 11th March 2013 at 11:48 PM by Bluelatios
  17. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Back in 1997/1998, nobody would have ever believed Pokemon would still be running with Ash as the main character for 16 years. The show has gone on for an insanely long time with the same protagonist. It doesn't matter what the writers do as every 4 years or so new kids get into Pokemon and the kids from the previous one stop watching.

    Its a never ending cycle, just like DC and Marvel can keep rebooting Batman and Spiderman every couple of years.
  18. Bluelatios's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    ....Which is a cycle that might not be good enough to keep Pokemon a high-profile brand for much longer. But enough, please answer my previous questions.
  19. The Fighting Misty's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    The reason Johto was a chore is the writers made the mistake in assuming that Misty or Brock could carry the show....they couldn't. Once the show started to be a long-winded series it became obvious that Ash's first two travel companions had no potential as characters to either remain interesting or grow throughout the series, as we have seen.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the writers viewed the original trio as a failure when Johto ended, Shudo certainly implied that in his blogs. Misty had the worst handled run for a female lead at that time (at least until Iris, but that's debateable), and Brock only gets a free pass in Johto because of what he'd become later on in DP.

    Its amazing that the writers actually acknowledged how poorly received Johto was, because when AG started virtually every major flaw of Johto was either addressed or done away with, and the main cast was actually allowed to improve. No, the show has never been perfect afterward, but its always been a heck of a lot more enjoyable than watching it being run into the ground for 3 years waiting for something remotely interesting to happen.
  20. pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    • |
    • permalink
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    The reason Johto was a chore is the writers made the mistake in assuming that Misty or Brock could carry the show....they couldn't. Once the show started to be a long-winded series it became obvious that Ash's first two travel companions had no potential as characters to either remain interesting or grow throughout the series, as we have seen.
    We both know this isn't true. Whether you want to believe how Misty or Brock were stale and without potential as characters is up to your own interpretation, but there is no denying how majority of character growth(more so in Misty than Brock case)happened in Johto remaining enjoyable as characterimo for most part.

    Also reason why Johto ended written way it was, wasn't because of original trio which is in reality complete bull.
    Reason why Johto failed was because of poor writing with plots like GS ball being botched and wasted after all that build up,too many unnecessary fillers being included which didn't advanced main character stories in any way,Ash rivals like Gary becoming non existent,his Johto team being handled poorly along with people in general simply growing out from anime which happens to every show in reality.

    Likewise this was writers first long region to write for not having experience and vision in which direction to take anime forward. This was especially noticeable after mr. Shudo stepped out from head position with other members taking some time to reorganize and make anime gain plot based as evidenced with Master Quest.

    Add to that fact how Takeshi Shudo didn't cared much for main cast and in increasing their role to add more substance and something else to follow through Johto beside only gyms and its not surprising at all why there were many fillers there. Especially when main vector and plotline which was supposed to full up time and provide story i which main cast could be involved regarding GS ball and Celebii was dropped.

    If anyone else instead of Misty and Brock was in Johto, it wouldn't end up written any differently because issue never existed with who was in cast but due to unprepared inexperienced writing.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the writers viewed the original trio as a failure when Johto ended, Shudo certainly implied that in his blogs. Misty had the worst handled run for a female lead at that time (at least until Iris, but that's debateable), and Brock only gets a free pass in Johto because of what he'd become later on in DP.
    You often try to decant your own views in form that it appears to be "fact", but it really isn't being your own personal view on things. You thought Misty had worst treatment for female character in this show, but fact is how many people would argue otherwise.

    While ill readily admit how she wasn't fleshed out enough with some things being treated poorly she still had several memorable moments and filled with quality growth going through struggles, emotional doubts and hard work not getting free pass for everything with her evolution as person and trainer and what she became toward end of Johto and chronicles happening in captivating and fun manner.

    As it was agreed with majority at that time.

    For instance Misty developed more as person compared to Dawn going in correlation with her story and growth she experienced coming of as more mature taking lesson on flaws she did being selfcritic, something Dawn lacked which while made big progress as coordinator stayed almost exactly same taking away from credibility in her story and all issues and trials which affected character.

    Iris in comparison got more focus on her story than Misty, but way her change happened and improvement was executed in rushed, unbelievable manner not showing vulnerability or learning on mistakes like Misty did.

    Each girl had both strong and weak points in way they were handled. We can't subject this to generalization , since things aren't black and white.

    Lastly your argument of mr. Shudo contradicts your earlier statement of Misty character not having any potential after Orange Islands, when ex head writer himself admitted how she wasn't fleshed out as much as she could had been regretting for not doing more with her story to strengthen position in anime.

    As matter of fact after he left other writers expanded more on her story than Shudo did at that time by creating arc in form of Whirl Islands dealing more actively with her goal, doing more with pokemon by giving her new capture and going through actual character development.

    Everyone knows how there was left lot of potential to do more with water master career which was barely expanded, Misty pokemon team and character itself having room to grow further.

    Something which only came to expression even more in Johto and onwards where we saw her improving as trainer, building on team, earning sisters respect becoming more confident, overcome fear from Gyarados etc.

    Seriously you sure like to often contradict yourself in here.

    Its amazing that the writers actually acknowledged how poorly received Johto was, because when AG started virtually every major flaw of Johto was either addressed or done away with, and the main cast was actually allowed to improve. No, the show has never been perfect afterward, but its always been a heck of a lot more enjoyable than watching it being run into the ground for 3 years waiting for something remotely interesting to happen.
    No, not really. Its more that writers learned on past mistakes when it comes to writing for longer regions which last for 3 to 4 years and how to span them across generation in more interesting, and organized manner.

    Johto was their testing ground not having any clue in what way to write for long regions after writing for short regions like kanto and Orange. That's all there is to it really.

    If anything with lose of Misty and disband of original trio show lost stable cast, great deal of humor, charm and spontaneous dynamic her character brought to show and slowly started to decay in mess full of poorly constructed and non coherent story, very little continuity, constant rehashes of what we saw before and lack of more complex growth and build up on characters story thanks to constant character replacing.

    Disband of original trio deprived us from stable cast, on going and plot based show which builds on story between characters making it look like joke compared to other shows which have consistent following which keeps its ties to past and expand on already accumulated growth characters went through doing upgrade, by taking them forward.

    No wonder why majority of older fans were skeptic when original trio was replaced, demanding for their return for all this years. Since their fears of anime decaying in compound filled with lower quality eventually became true., Not necessarily because of characters themselves, but more on their leaving starting negative trend of static formula where protagonists constantly leave leading to whole chain of undesired side effects instead of following example other long lasting shows which keep cast do having more connected story.
    Updated 7th April 2013 at 08:18 AM by pokemon fan 132
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Trackbacks

Total Trackbacks 0
Trackback URL: