Quantcast
I loved that jab at lengthy transformation sequences in Voltron Force last night. - Blogs - Bulbagarden Forums

View RSS Feed

Shinneth

I loved that jab at lengthy transformation sequences in Voltron Force last night.

Rate this Entry
by , 22nd July 2011 at 11:15 AM (283 Views)
It's so nice to have Trifecta 18 done, you have no idea. Now I'll get to write some really fun things whenever I get to starting chapter 19, which shouldn't be long from now. First I just have to vent out all my negativity so I don't drive myself insane from bottling all up inside.

Also, since when was the word "Mary Sue" treated like it's up in the leagues of racist slurs around here? Oh, right. Because it's been associated with Iris, and apparently you're a horrible person if you have even the slightest negative connotation about Iris as a character, her development, or the writers who are behind the handling of her character.

But because two wrongs totally make a right, it's perfectly justified to drag Cilan's name through the mud and call him a Gary Stu because that's nothing at all like the double standards that have been needlessly bitched about due to the heinous crime of anyone doing anything less than loving and worshipping the almighty Iris.

I have zero sympathy for anyone who whines about how sick they are of Iris "being called a Mary Sue", even though she hasn't outright been labeled one and it's merely observed that the writers are inadvertently making her take on more Sue traits as time goes by, so much to the point that it's a cause for concern. Guess what! There is a difference, but this wouldn't be the first time wild conclusions were jumped to because of hasty assumptions.

The reason I don't feel sorry for anyone who's upset by associating Iris with the word? I've experienced the same kind of scenario with my own favorite character. Someone on LJ called him a Villain Sue and made all sorts of erroneous accusations to justify their dislike of the character. And mind you, this was a Big Name Fan doing this, meaning the influence could easily spread these misconceptions across the fandom and make a fine mess of things. But did I jump in, call out this person for their lies, organize a character defense crusade and force that person to change their mind? No. I did not. I never once interacted with that person. All I did was show the entry to my friends during a Skype call, we all made fun of her perceptions contained entirely within the call, and that was it. I got over it and I moved on.

Is it because I didn't like that character enough to defend him? No. It's because I didn't feel the need to start a conflict based entirely on their opinion of a fictional character, however warped it was.They weren't attacking real-life fans of the character, they weren't invading fan clubs or harrassing people who thought differently, and though this person had to have been heavily misinformed for the exaggerated accusations, I felt no need to enlighten that person. That person's extremely negative view on that character had no bearing whatsoever on how much I enjoyed the character, and so any action I could've made to "right" this "wrong" wouldn't have been worth the time or effort. I've seen similar sentiments here on the forums as well, but again, I've done no crusading to prove them wrong and change their minds. It's easier to ignore such sentiments than you might think.

This is why I roll my eyes at this "situation" with Iris. Mountains are being made of molehills, all because it seems no one but a select few are willing to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Since I've found multiple sources of me and some of my friends being slandered (both here and elsewhere) solely for not liking Iris - claiming we're in cahoots to get a rise out of Iris fans by relentlessly trolling them and dissing Iris for the hell of it - I'd say I have far more reason to be pissed off about this scenario than anyone who's just sick of seeing the word "Mary Sue" sprinkled about in the forums.

Is it that hard to believe that I genuinely really don't like a character and want to speak my mind with no ulterior motive whatsoever? I honestly couldn't care less who agrees or disagrees with me, and I have better things to do with my time than be a manipulative asshole towards people I don't even know. I initially had very high hopes for Iris; I'll admit rising my expectations was my own fault since I ended up being far more disappointed than I would've been had I not hyped up the prospects for the upcoming series. But that still doesn't excuse what I honestly feel is very poor writing, and it's not just with Iris. There's dozens of aspects of BW I dislike and am annoyed by, but since Iris is a main character, it's significantly harder to ignore whenever they screw up with her. I've watched and analyzed plenty of episodes, and I don't think it's a coincidence that in the episodes of BW I actually like, Iris is pretty much always the sole low point of these episodes due to various reasons.

There are perfectly good reasons why Iris is under suspicion of becoming some form of a Sue down the road. Anyone who bothers to research TV Tropes can see there are many different variations of Mary Sues. Yes, the essence of the original Mary Sue usually aren't seen beyond horrible fanfics, but there are valid points out here that I think justify the belief that Iris is starting to cross into that territory (once again: this is not to say she is a full-blown Mary Sue). A lot of people didn't like how the ongoing Excadrill "subplot" (can you call it an ongoing subplot when it existed for all of two episodes?) was handled, and I think one would be hard-pressed to argue that Emolga suddenly becoming obedient and battle-ready out of the blue with no explanation whatsoever was a good move. How is it that Iris' problems with her Pokemon are getting resolved with little to no struggle on Iris' end, with no revelations of how her flaws may be holding back her true potential (y'know, how it works for everyone else in this series), and rather that the Pokemon is the solely the one at fault (despite what was said in DP about how a Pokemon's shortcomings are the fault of the trainer). Iris already knows all there is to know about being a Dragon Master and can do what Dragon Masters do, and since her Pokemon can better themselves through the magic of plot convenience that requires no visual effort of Iris, y'know, training these Pokemon, there's got to be a point where you stop and realize "Okay, is it me or is Iris getting by way too easily?"

She gives Ash a hard time for absolutely no reason and gets away with it, she's needlessly overly-critical towards others and no one tells her to shut her face, she's always got something negative to say whenever something amusing or entertaining is going on (hence the Debbie Downer monicker), so from my perspective and from others, Iris just brings everything down to a depressing halt. I feel no real trio vibe between her, Ash, and Cilan.

Yet I do feel a trio vibe with Ash, Cilan, and... Bianca. I finally realized that I'd probably enjoy this show a lot better if Bianca was the token girl and Iris, with some retooling, became a rival. Because when it comes down to it, even though the writers obviously want us to feel for Iris (otherwise we wouldn't have seen her cry bitch tears in BW036) even though I honestly have trouble connecting with her. I can't sympathize with her, I can't understand her attitude or motives, and the story has given me no reason to want her to succeed in her goal. Bianca, on the other hand, I can connect with. She has an engaging plot in the game that seems to be set to be adapted into the anime, and I have to say a ditzy girl striving to become a trainer to prove her discouraging and overprotective dad wrong is a much more heartfelt story than watching the journey of a young girl prodigy who doesn't act like one half the time who possesses this self-righteous superiority complex and deflection issues, whose catchphrase only serves to put down others and reflect on her own immaturity that the series so far is ignoring in favor of glorifying her inherent abilities, strive to become a Dragon Master even though she already knows everything she needs in order to become one and all she really has left is to wait for her weak-ass or ornery Pokemon to catch up with her.

I gotta say, that's not really a thrilling story. Hell, Brock was rarely thrilling but his aspirations had more spirit and emotional appeal than this.

Actually, if I weren't so certain I'd get eaten alive here by doing so, I'd love to have a topic about the prospects of a "What If?" scenario where Bianca is the token girl of BW instead of Iris and how the series would go about that way. And before anyone brings this up, her trainer status could always change early on into another path (similar to May), since Bianca in the games was always unsure about whether or not she'd be fit to be a trainer and ultimately ended up taking on a more supportive role, which she could do in the anime as well. That way, we won't have to deal with repeat Gym battles. And hell, if she were part of the main cast, Ash wouldn't have needed to catch that personality-deprived Tepig and might've caught something more worthwhile in its place.

Really, it's a fascinating idea and I'd love to discuss it, but I'm sure it would be interpreted as "more Iris-hating" which is apparently a crime here now.

Anyway, I'll stop here. I'm sure this will brew a fine shitstorm; that's what I get for speaking my mind. How dare I, right?

Submit "I loved that jab at lengthy transformation sequences in Voltron Force last night." to Digg Submit "I loved that jab at lengthy transformation sequences in Voltron Force last night." to del.icio.us Submit "I loved that jab at lengthy transformation sequences in Voltron Force last night." to StumbleUpon Submit "I loved that jab at lengthy transformation sequences in Voltron Force last night." to Google

Updated 24th December 2011 at 12:58 PM by Shinneth

Categories
Pokemon Anime Babbles

Comments

  1. Contrary's Avatar
    cry bitch tears
    That made me LOL so hard.
  2. Shinneth's Avatar
    I'm glad someone found that hilarious. XD I expected I'd be burned at the stake for it, so thanks for cheering me up!
  3. Jabberwocky's Avatar
    I don't like the term Mary Sue because it's become diluted; its original meaning is lost, and it now means "character I don't like" in most cases.

    Motion to begin using the term "Pollyanna" once more.
  4. Meron Targaryen's Avatar
    Tl;dr, I read only the beginning because I couldn't care less what you think. But I'd just like to say that I have no problem that people don't like Iris. Just using the term wrong is what bothers me.
  5. Contrary's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Motion to begin using the term "Pollyanna" once more.
    Isn't she the really positive girl who fell out of a tree?
  6. Shinneth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    I don't like the term Mary Sue because it's become diluted; its original meaning is lost, and it now means "character I don't like" in most cases.
    Well, here's the thing: no one really even used "Iris" and "Mary Sue" in the same sentence together until after the Excadrill episode aired.

    So it's not like this has been thrown about since the beginning of the series. It was more a "cause and effect" situation. Because I've disliked Iris since long before that episode aired, as did others. It's the recent events that are causing people to suspect a Sue.
  7. Shinneth's Avatar
    Well, uh... thanks for sharing that.

    Thing is, it's been recent events in the anime that have triggered the associaton of Iris and the term. It's not like she's been called one since the beginning, so the assumption that she's being called a Sue simply because some people don't like her is wrong. It's the way she's being written recently that's causing the concern.
  8. Shinneth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Karamazov
    Isn't she the really positive girl who fell out of a tree?
    Only thing I know about "Pollyanna" is that it's the song of like one of the greatest songs ever from the Earthbound series.

    And anything associated with Earthbound is awesome and should not be tainted with this trash. ♥
  9. Meron Targaryen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth
    Well, uh... thanks for sharing that.
    I had to because you put words in my mouth. Guess you were too angry to actually read what I said even though my blog entry was pretty short...?
    Thing is, it's been recent events in the anime that have triggered the associaton of Iris and the term. It's not like she's been called one since the beginning, so the assumption that she's being called a Sue simply because some people don't like her is wrong. It's the way she's being written recently that's causing the concern.
    How about Luke, then? He's only been there for 3 episodes and people are already calling him a Mary Sue (which is the wrong term even if he was one).
  10. Shinneth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Meron
    I had to because you put words in my mouth. Guess you were too angry to actually read what I said even though my blog entry was pretty short...?
    You weren't the only person complaining about the subject matter, and I don't recall referring to you specifically... and that right there is a pretty big assumption to make. Either way, I'm not really in the mood for these kinds of jabs.

    How about Luke, then? He's only been there for 3 episodes and people are already calling him a Mary Sue (which is the wrong term even if he was one).
    You're asking the wrong person here; I haven't been paying attention to Luke. But besides that, the term being tossed about here and there and everywhere is like, absolutely nothing new for this fandom or any fandom. I'm sure almost every single Pokemon character's been called a Mary Sue/Gary Stu at some point regardless or whether or not it was warranted. Why people are throwing fits about it now is what made me scratch my head, until I realized Iris was in the mix and since shitstorms are guaranteed if anyone says one little negative thing about her, I figured that was the catalyst that got this so overblown.
  11. CommanderPigg's Avatar
    I'll put this out there, I'm completely against censoring the word "mary sue" because I actually believe that some legitimate uses of it exist...and I'm willing to admit that some of my favorite characters have mary-sue-like traits but that doesn't mean that I hate the character and all...

    But...I agree that it is a trigger word that should be dealt with responsibly for the sake of respect to the members on the forum.

    I may be saying this because...It's frustrating for me to deal with these types of situations on the boards...and I may be saying this because some of my friends have been seriously annoyed and hurt with the use of this word on Iris...and I may be saying this because I'm aware of how troubling the word is...

    But yeah...if the qualities/faults of the characters can be pointed out without the use of the term (no matter how closely they fit the trope) it's probably preferred.

    I'm not saying to stop using it, I'm just saying that perhaps the negative outbursts it attracts can sully the discussion value even MORE when used. It's just not worth it.

    Private conversations, however...Yeah, I don't really care :P
    Not condemning/condoning anyone, just saying my two cents.

    EDIT: Isn't Paul still listed a Villain Sue on TVTropes?? LAWL XDDD
  12. Shinneth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderPigg
    I'll put this out there, I'm completely against censoring the word "mary sue" because I actually believe that some legitimate uses of it exist...and I'm willing to admit that some of my favorite characters have mary-sue-like traits but that doesn't mean that I hate the character and all...
    Actually, I believe pretty much every character in every work of fiction has at least one or two technical Sue traits from the get-go. They may or may not disappear over time, but having a couple is not a bad thing as long as they're not glorified to the point that it affects the flow of the story or the character. And naturally, some characters can gain Sue traits as time goes by if there are really incompetent writers running the whole thing who don't know the concept of balancing a character. Which is what I'm seeing with Iris now.

    And I agree, Mary Sue shouldn't be censored. That's one of the stupidest proposals I've ever heard of.

    But...I agree that it is a trigger word that should be dealt with responsibly for the sake of respect to the members on the forum.
    Of course. The thing I don't understand is why people can't comprehend the difference between the discussion of Sue traits and outright proclaiming that someone's a Mary Sue. From every conversation I've watched or taken part in, Iris was never outright called a Mary Sue; there was just concern for the potential because of the way she was being handled. That, I believe, is responsible use of the Mary Sue thing. The problem is, even if we're professional about it, people still overreact and assume we're labeling characters as Mary Sues even when we explain to them what's really going on. But this really isn't too different from any given Iris discussion where any analysis of her flaws that stays completely focused on the topic at hand is wrecked by people who still find a way to take it personally and refuse to ignore or just stay out of discussions that upset them.

    So yes, it is important to treat sensitive subjects with respect, but at the same time I don't want my right to voice my complaints about one single character taken away because some people don't realize that if they can't handle someone not liking their favorite character, they probably shouldn't be lurking around that area of the forum in the first place and just stick to their fanclubs. When it's gotten to the point that they think it's okay to harass users over it (and I've had to issue out two equivalents of forum restraining orders against people who just wouldn't leave me alone) and talk shit about them behind their backs - solely because they don't like a character they love - I think someone needs to put their foot down and lay down the law about how it isn't acceptable, under any circumstance, to trash a real-life person because of a fictional character. Maybe it's been done already and I haven't noticed, but regardless we still have people who are hyper-sensitive over conflicting opinions on fictional characters, which in turn has caused a lot of needless drama like the bout we've got now.

    I may be saying this because...It's frustrating for me to deal with these types of situations on the boards...and I may be saying this because some of my friends have been seriously annoyed and hurt with the use of this word on Iris...and I may be saying this because I'm aware of how troubling the word is...
    And I know how you feel about that. But at the same time, it's frustrating for me to deal with seeing users give me shit I don't deserve, give Hellion shit, and even go as far as trashing us on other forums (I hope that link works) and making wild and completely untrue accusations about us, which users here have done as well. So when I think back on the people who are so frustrated and upset because of one measly term... I remember they had no problem whatsoever trashing real-life people for the sake of a fictional character. Maybe I'm just an asshole, but I feel no sympathy whatsoever for a lot of these people.

    I'm not saying to stop using it, I'm just saying that perhaps the negative outbursts it attracts can sully the discussion value even MORE when used. It's just not worth it.
    I doubt it'll be a problem avoiding the word in casual conversations. Unless the anime pulls some really ridiculous BS in the near future... which may or may not happen. It's pretty hard to gage BW in general. But there've been plenty of negative outbursts already even without the Mary Sue fiasco. And honestly, if the term alone upsets them so much, how come they're so quick to label Cilan a Mary Sue?

    Anyway, I appreciate your input as always. ♥ It means a lot to get these thoughtful, considerate, and non-hostile comments.

    Isn't Paul still listed a Villain Sue on TVTropes?? LAWL XDDD
    I dunno if he's still listed as a Villain Sue, but he is still listed as a Karma Houdini... which I still contest. How is getting curbstomped by both Cynthia and Brandon in public not karma biting him hard on the ass? Losing in a humiliating way IS karma in the Pokemon anime, for crying out loud. :P But it was SaraJayeChan who called him a Villain Sue a long time ago... and still hates him even by the end.
    Updated 22nd July 2011 at 04:56 PM by Shinneth
  13. CommanderPigg's Avatar
    It's a pokemon site...there are people of various maturity and tolerance levels and I try my hardest to stay sensitive to that. I know that budging because it impedes on the rights of you as a poster may seem unjustified because of certain negative outbursts (rightfully so) but I honestly don't think it's worth thinking about too much...Complain about Iris fans complaining about Cilan fans complaining about Mary-sues complaining about...IDK what...It's just all very bad for my health XD

    I often just...zone out of the fandom during times like these...get some work of my own done...AMV making, art, etc. It helps clear my head ^^;

    Yeah, I think that the Tropes article for him is quite outdated, but I guess it's a good milestone of how much he's changed (and how the perceptions of him has changed).
  14. Shinneth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderPigg
    It's a pokemon site...there are people of various maturity and tolerance levels and I try my hardest to stay sensitive to that. I know that budging because it impedes on the rights of you as a poster may seem unjustified because of certain negative outbursts (rightfully so) but I honestly don't think it's worth thinking about too much...Complain about Iris fans complaining about Cilan fans complaining about Mary-sues complaining about...IDK what...It's just all very bad for my health XD
    It's been pretty tiring for all parties involved... though like I've said in the past, I don't think there's any problem at all with complaining about something as long as there's a point to it. Something legitimately ticking you off, something you have to get off your chest and vent... which in my case it's more therapeutic for me than anything else to bitch about things on the forums so I'll feel more even and chill in real life. As long as actual people aren't targeted, it should be totally kosher. Even if it's annoying or repetitive arguing, most people act like it's impossible to ignore and it just isn't. If I can ignore a BNF trashing my favorite character with exaggerations and lies, I think it shouldn't be impossible for the huge mass of Iris fans to ignore one or two people who express well-founded criticisms of her.

    I mean, I don't mind discussing/debating as long as the people involved are mature and won't blow up or jump to conclusions or assume the worst of the person who disagrees. There are people who like Iris who I actually get along with here quite well, and we're perfectly capable of dicussing these topics peacefully. That's how debates ought to be run, but unfortunately there are people who won't play along. It even got to the point where I lost my patience (due to having to reiterate the same point over and over and over) in one discussion and ended up getting banned for it, and that messed with my head. The thing is, though, is that I never saw myself as an aggressor in any of the debates. Hellion and everyone else who has criticized Iris also haven't been doing anything except asserting their opinion. Not as the "right" opinion, but as a credible and justified opinion. It's the same deal with me; I never came into any debate trying to make myself out to be the one "in the right" and I never intended to change anyone's mind. That's never been my motive in any discussion I've taken part of, nor has it been for any of the others who agreed with me. I've accepted that if anyone's to change their mind because of something I say, that's up to them; not me.

    In addition to that, nobody who dislikes Iris has ever raided the fanclub safe havens of the fans and I haven't seen anyone attack a user who's proclaimed their love of Iris, or even instigate any kind of conflict. All the conflict I've seen is from Iris fans who tear apart even the smallest comments I (or Hellion, etc.) make that criticize her, even if it's just a minor remark in passing. They demand (rather rudely) for explanations, proof, and basically put us on the spot for the very uncomfortable debating. While it is something that would be better off ignored, I don't like the idea of giving up if only because that gives the Iris fans who are rude and aggressive the impression that they've "won".

    Not like there's anything to "win" in a debate, but I mean in a way that encourages them to continue their less-than-pleasant behavior in the future and treat other people in other debates the same way, and letting them continue to think it's right to harrass actual people over fictional characters.

    But I thought of something while I was typing this. I know you've got a Deviantart account, as do I. Have you come across some of the fanclubs that were made in the old-school days before these newer and more efficient models were put in? In the Sonic fandom (which I was never active in), they had fanclubs, anti-clubs (which in a way I can understand; I always wanted a nice, safe space to complain about things I don't like in peace), and anti-anti-clubs: clubs that solely exist to hate on and complain about people who don't like something that they do like. I always thought those were the most pointless things in the world, just like how I roll my eyes at people who insist on complaining about other people complaining. That's where it gets into an endless, mindblowing loop.

    It's okay to love stuff, and it's okay to hate stuff. But when there's a mass effect of people hating on people who hate what they love who haven't harrassed them in any way (or in other words, complain about complaining), then there's a problem. I've been bullied/ganged uo on, called names, been accused wrongly of all sorts of made-up crap, and I feel like it'll get to a point where people will just start arguing to spite me rather than having anything to do with the subject matter at all. It's already happened to Hellion, and I can't get over just how wrong that is. No matter how headache-inducing this crap is, I have no intention of letting them take my rights away from me or permanently soil my reputation just so they don't have to deal with the ever-arduous task of scrolling past a post they don't like.

    Sorry I just threw a whole slew of paragraphs at you, by the way. There's just been a lot festering in my system and a lot I need to get off my chest that I'm now very hesitant to do because I won't want to be marked as a flamer/baiter again and have my record that was clean for years get further dirtied. It's not my intention to flame anyone, but I feel like I have to be honest at some point and sugarcoating everything doesn't seem to get my point across very well.

    I often just...zone out of the fandom during times like these...get some work of my own done...AMV making, art, etc. It helps clear my head ^^;
    Yeah, I did just do that by finishing another chapter of my fic. Before I start my next chapter, I want to vent away the negativity I still have within me so I'll be in prime shape for writing. I don't blame you for doing the same at all. ^^;

    Yeah, I think that the Tropes article for him is quite outdated, but I guess it's a good milestone of how much he's changed (and how the perceptions of him has changed).
    Very true... Paul seems to be pretty popular on this forum at least, so it's kinda jarring to see him so hated on TVTropes. Then again, my fic just got rec'd there and someone urged that it deserves a chance despite the heavy concentration of Paul material. XD It's kinda sad that people have to beg the Paul factor to be even considered, given that he's (imo) the most interesting character in the anime to write about since the anime left so many open holes in his backstory to take advantage of in fanfics. And it's flattering, but still beyond weird to still be getting reviews of people who outright admit that they hated Paul until they read my fic. @_@ Guess it's nice that there are a good amount of people who're willing to give him a chance to begin with, huh? It's such a challenge to get a large readership when you've got a fic with so many strikes against its chances at popularity, such as A) being set in Animeverse with canon characters and very few OCs, B) NOT being a Pokeshipping fic, and Misty herself is just a minor character who barely mentions Ash and doesn't even insinuate that she's madly in love with him, C) not being a shipping fic in general, D) being really ungodly lengthy, and for some reason people discriminate against fics that are "too long", E) being a Paul-centric story WITHOUT being an Ikarishipping story, and F) very little Team Rocket appearances. So I just have to tell myself with so many elements of the fic working against me to succeed, it's doing relatively well.

    ... now why did I have to go spew all that at you. Ahahah. I'm so, so sorry.

Trackbacks

Total Trackbacks 0
Trackback URL: