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Transfinite

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If I didn't love this forum so much, I'd be seriously considering resigning from my mod position. After all, if I can't be trusted to objectively know whether or not I made a choice to find females attractive (I didn't, any more than I chose to like chocolate ice cream better than strawberry, but apparently my own word isn't good enough because I'm "too close" to the subject), I don't see how I could possibly have the mental capacity to moderate a forum like this one. I am just so glad that the heterosexuals of this forum decided to mansplain my personal feelings and choices to me; I never could have worked them out on my own!

But that aside, I'm staying. Just felt like getting that off my chest.

[b]Edit:[/b] FURTHERMORE.

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Updated 22nd July 2010 at 10:14 PM by Transfinite

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  1. Melty's Avatar
    That nonsense is still going on? *checks thread* Yup. I wonder if anyone has said anything about my stance... probably not. It's too reasonable.
  2. Archaic's Avatar
    Ket, you've debated a lot, you know the difference between hearsay and actual documented evidence. One person being absolutely sure of something, no matter how much we may trust their word or agree with their statements, does not evidence make.
  3. Transfinite's Avatar
    When that "something" that that person is absolutely sure about is whether or not they have made a specific choice, I'm pretty sure hearsay is more valid than a bunch of straight kids saying "Well, [i]I[/i] think you can't understand your own emotions and decisions."
  4. Phoenicks's Avatar
    "heterosexuals"

    I'm gay, just so you know.
  5. Transfinite's Avatar
    Did you choose to be gay?
  6. Phoenicks's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Transfinite
    Did you choose to be gay?
    I wouldn't presume to know. I chose to accept my homosexuality - but that's as far as I can reasonably be aware of myself. I won't pretend to know what goes on inside my mind. One could reasonably say that the stress associated with becoming gay clouds one's true feelings and perceptions. One could also say that being gay creates the pressure to fit into a community (seeing as we're typically ostracized from mainstream society by definition), and there's peer pressure to accept homosexuality as genetic.

    I neither know nor care whether or not it was a choice.
  7. Nelly's Avatar
    I love how you always portray your side with this morally superior, always 100% correct without any second thought type of attitude. And then you turn around and utterly rip the other side just for being a different side. In this case, they are just "manplaining".

    You know, Christians are 100% sure they've felt the touch of God. No outside environmental reasons for their faith there. I still call bullshit on it. You can never be 100% sure where any feeling or idea comes from.
  8. Transfinite's Avatar
    [quote]I wouldn't presume to know. I chose to accept my homosexuality - but that's as far as I can reasonably be aware of myself. I won't pretend to know what goes on inside my mind. One could reasonably say that the stress associated with becoming gay clouds one's true feelings and perceptions. One could also say that being gay creates the pressure to fit into a community (seeing as we're typically ostracized from mainstream society by definition), and there's peer pressure to accept homosexuality as genetic.

    I neither know nor care whether or not it was a choice.[/quote]
    You can't say whether or not you... my god, how does that even work? Did you hit your head on something and get retrograde amnesia? Do you also not know whether or not you chose to eat breakfast this morning? Or whether you choose to sneeze when someone blows pepper in your face? This idea that someone could not know whether or not something they do is a choice is mindboggling.

    [quote]I love how you always portray your side with this morally superior, always 100% correct without any second thought type of attitude. And then you turn around and utterly rip the other side just for being a different side. In this case, they are just "manplaining".

    You know, Christians are 100% sure they've felt the touch of God. No outside environmental reasons for their faith there. I still call bullshit on it.[/quote]
    Well gee, how dare I presume to think that I know what choices I've made and not made. Clearly I need some superior, more intelligent person to tell me. Like you! How about you?

    And no, not all of them are. When I was a Christian, I was never sure of that. So that's kind of not the same argument at all.
  9. Phoenicks's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Transfinite
    You can't say whether or not you... my god, how does that even work? Did you hit your head on something and get retrograde amnesia? Do you also not know whether or not you chose to eat breakfast this morning? Or whether you choose to sneeze when someone blows pepper in your face? This idea that someone could not know whether or not something they do is a choice is mindboggling.
    I don't need to know; knowledge is for for those who are uncertain. I'm gay, and I accept that. I don't need to bash other's worldviews because they disagree.
  10. Transfinite's Avatar
    [QUOTE=Phoenicks;bt80669]I don't need to know; knowledge is for for those who are uncertain. I'm gay, and I accept that. I don't need to bash other's worldviews because they disagree.[/QUOTE]
    ...are you saying that "I know for a fact I did not choose my sexual orientation" is a bash on someone else's worldview?
  11. Phoenicks's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Transfinite
    ...are you saying that "I know for a fact I did not choose my sexual orientation" is a bash on someone else's worldview?
    I'm saying that "amnesia" and "sneezing" aren't very subtle or tolerant ways of calling me stupid for not knowing if I chose to be gay.
  12. Nelly's Avatar
    Well gee, how dare I presume to think that I know what choices I've made and not made. Clearly I need some superior, more intelligent person to tell me. Like you! How about you?
    It isn't about "choices" it is about the subconscious being affected by environment.

    Am I saying no one is born gay? No. Because I cannot begin to even know if this is true. And I fail to accept personal testimony as fact.

    And no, not all of them are. When I was a Christian, I was never sure of that. So that's kind of not the same argument at all.
    I can't tell you how many times I've been told I remain atheist only because I "haven't felt the touch of the holy spirit." Cats like this are 100% sure their faith wasn't a choice, but something they simply took on when God spoke to them. And there is no telling them otherwise. Because regardless of evidence that environment may have helped them find their faith, they know what they felt.
  13. Transfinite's Avatar
    [quote]I'm saying that "amnesia" and "sneezing" aren't very subtle or tolerant ways of calling me stupid for not knowing if I chose to be gay.[/quote]
    How about the breakfast example?

    [quote]It isn't about "choices" it is about the subconscious being affected by environment.[/quote]
    Actually, the thread this post refers to [i]is[/i] about choices.

    [quote]I can't tell you how many times I've been told I remain atheist only because I "haven't felt the touch of the holy spirit.[/quote]
    Well, great for you. Not every Christian feels the same way. Not sure where you're going with this or why you think it's even remotely related, but you have fun with that.
  14. Phoenicks's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Transfinite
    How about the breakfast example?
    How about it? Are we comparing knowledge of how one obtained one's sexuality to selecting cereals at breakfast?

    Let me resist all the obvious jokes: The former is not a question one always asks oneself. The latter is the mundane, daily question of "What to eat for breakfast?".

    Actually, the thread this post refers to is about choices.
    And whether or not said choice exists.
  15. Transfinite's Avatar
    [QUOTE=Phoenicks;bt80679]How about it? Are we comparing knowledge of how one obtained one's sexuality to selecting cereals at breakfast?

    Let me resist all the obvious jokes: The former is not a question one always asks oneself. The latter is the mundane, daily question of "What to eat for breakfast?".

    And whether or not said choice exists.[/QUOTE]
    I'm confused by this comment, because for all the world it looks like it corroborates the "it's not a choice" argument, but you still somehow believe that other people get to have opinions about what goes on inside my mind.
  16. Nelly's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Transfinite
    I'm confused by this comment, because for all the world it looks like it corroborates the "it's not a choice" argument, but you still somehow believe that other people get to have opinions about what goes on inside my mind.
    The point is no one knows how anyone's mind works, including their own. There are just too many idiosyncrasies there. Especially when it comes to shit like sexuality. Claiming to know how your mind functions, particularly the subconscious, comes off as smug to me. Because I will never even begin to tell you how everything works in my head. Because I haven't studied that shit. And even those who have will tell you not much is known about the subconscious besides a few choice things.

    EDIT: The comic makes no sense. You are comparing blatant choking to the subconscious.

    The subconscious; as easy to understand as whether or not some dude is being choked. Or simple math. Take your pick.
  17. Phoenicks's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Transfinite
    I'm confused by this comment, because for all the world it looks like it corroborates the "it's not a choice" argument, but you still somehow believe that other people get to have opinions about what goes on inside my mind.
    I'm not saying anything about what goes on in your head - I don't even presume to know my own mind.

    Let's recognize the differences between "Am I gay?" and "What to eat today?". The former is a question of one's identity - not easily solved and not often asked. And simply asking the question "Am I gay?" has no bearing on whether or not it was actually my choice to be gay. It just means that I'm recognizing what I feel that I am. The latter question is just one of "Oh, what will it be today...."
  18. Transfinite's Avatar
    [QUOTE=YeOldeJacob;bt80682]The point is [I]no one knows how anyone's mind works, including their own[/I]. There are just too many idiosyncrasies there. Especially when it comes to shit like sexuality. Claiming to know how your mind functions, particularly the subconscious, comes off as smug to me. Because I will never even begin to tell you how everything works in my head. Because I haven't studied that shit. And even those who have will tell you not much is known about the subconscious besides a few choice things.[/quote]
    So what do you think that because the mind is a mysterious place, people are incapable of remembering that something was a choice? I grew up in a heavily homophobic environment, and yet I still remember the first crush I had on a girl. What I don't remember was making the decision to have that crush. See, that's a little confusing, the idea that something could be a choice I made and yet at the same time could be something I don't remember.

    My argument here isn't that "homosexuality is genetic or biological". I never said it can't come about from environmental factors. What you are failing to grasp is that if it was a [i]choice[/i] someone made, people would remember that choice. What is so special about homosexuality that people would forget that choice, while remembering others that they made?

    [quote]EDIT: The comic makes no sense. You are comparing blatant choking to the subconscious.[/quote]
    I'm comparing an illogical cry of "It's my opinion!" to another illogical cry of "It's my opinion!"
  19. The Outrage's Avatar
    Considering that to have a choice, you have to have free will, I recall reading something in my psych textbook that some people suggest that the human body is just a machine responding to stimuli so we never actually have a choice. You know, something like:

    -Outrage's body is dehydrated
    -Body responds with a feeling of thirst
    -Brain instructs body to drink water
    -Outrage drinks water

    Now I may think I chose to drink water, but really it was my body responding to a necessity to drink.

    I probably oversimplified that a bit (a lot), but really from everything I've been reading it seems more likely you can trick a person into believing they have "chose to do something" when they haven't rather than the other way around.
    Updated 22nd July 2010 at 10:46 PM by The Outrage
  20. Transfinite's Avatar
    [QUOTE=Outrage;bt80690]Considering that to have a choice, you have to have free will, I recall reading something in my psych textbook that some people suggest that the human body is just a machine responding to stimuli so we never actually have a choice.

    I probably oversimplified that a bit (a lot), but really from everything I've been reading it seems more likely you can trick a person into believing they have "chose to do something" when they haven't rather than the other way around.[/QUOTE]
    Watch your completely valid point be ignored or twisted by everyone.

    (For the record, my stance on the "Does free will exist" thing, when it comes to homosexuality being a choice, is this: It doesn't matter. If free will doesn't exist, then obviously it's not a choice. If it does exist, then it's [i]still[/i] not a choice for all the reasons I've explained.)
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