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FANG-TAN

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by , 10th May 2013 at 08:10 PM (2056 Views)
Regarding the Pokemon anime, there are times where I remember that we went from this



to this.



And then I, ugh...

Excuse me while I cry in the corner.

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Updated 21st June 2013 at 12:54 PM by FANG-TAN

Categories
Pokemon Anime , Satoshi

Comments

  1. Bishie Karis-chan's Avatar
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    "Argh, it's for the Gym match!"

    Suddenly, Ash is a pirate.
  2. FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karis
    "Argh, it's for the Gym match!"

    Suddenly, Ash is a pirate.
    God dammit, now I can't stop laughing. xD
  3. John Understands's Avatar
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    I wonder if Ash goes on The Pirate Bay.
  4. Bluelatios's Avatar
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    Yeeaah, Ash was drawn much cooler before. It really felt like his trademark sheer determination was brought out much better with the bolder eyes, eyebrows, and facial expressions.
  5. HumanDawn's Avatar
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    You're using the shots of him from a movie where he has more detail compared to the episode quality where he has less detail. That isn't fair.
  6. Scarlet Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumanDawn
    You're using the shots of him from a movie where he has more detail compared to the episode quality where he has less detail. That isn't fair.
    I wouldn't say the detail is much better, aside from slightly better shading. Would you care to explain how that is unfair?
    FANG-TAN likes this.
  7. Ranger Jack Walker's Avatar
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    See how it works the other way around too? Biased photos and media manipulation.

    Go cry more.
  8. Satoshi-kun's Avatar
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    I don't see a problem with this, personally. When you want to keep a series popular and keep your audience (which consists of a lot of younger viewers who have never seen the earlier seasons), you want to keep the artistic style up to date, and styles in anime are always changing. In other words, you're not going to keep the interest of your target audience if your show looks dated.
    FANG-TAN likes this.
  9. FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumanDawn
    You're using the shots of him from a movie where he has more detail compared to the episode quality where he has less detail. That isn't fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Jack Walker




    See how it works the other way around too? Biased photos and media manipulation.

    Go cry more.
    I still like the former character design from those images better regardless (the image was broken until I pasted the url into my address bar, by the way). Better budget doesn't change the fact that the designs are still radically different, and give different impressions. If I used something off-model, then maybe it'd give the original Satoshi an unfair advantage. But I didn't. Both screenshots depict how they were designed, with no glaring animation errors, and they are just as "detailed" as one another. Not to mention, while the older episodes had a 90s flavor to them that just can't be hated, they were still given a simplistic approach when it came to animation. And on top of that, we're comparing the 90s cel animation to the digital animation, where they can get away with lazy drawings a lot less. How exactly is it unfair to compare the same type of cel animation at its best and most modern, from the movie, to the current digital animation? Especially when you're comparing character designs?

    Using shots from the 16th Best Wishes movie trailer, I *still* think the original character design looks more hotblooded than the new design...



    Even with the better animation, I still prefer Satoshi's old design over his new one. Of course, Satoshi himself is radically different from how he was when the series began, but that's something I'm not too fond of in general.

    (Besides, if I were really biased, I would have compared the lowest-tier Best Wishes episode to a screenshot from the Mewtwo TV Special, a digitally animated episode with a higher budget than normal, instead of a 1998 cel-animated movie, which kept true to the animation/art style of its corresponding episodes more than the others, especially after the third.

    )

    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi-kun
    I don't see a problem with this, personally. When you want to keep a series popular and keep your audience (which consists of a lot of younger viewers who have never seen the earlier seasons), you want to keep the artistic style up to date, and styles in anime are always changing. In other words, you're not going to keep the interest of your target audience if your show looks dated.
    In what way is it dated though? The effectiveness of modernization is true. But that doesn't have a direct correlation with the design. One Piece has one of the most "unusual" character designs ever, and the newer episodes retain much of that style. It still enjoys attention from young audiences all over Japan. And then there's Dragon Ball (which inspired the Toriyama-styled eyes on the original Red design, which Satoshi was modeled after).

    If they were to animate the old Satoshi design in modern digital glory (complete with actual black and angled hair) I'm sure the new audiences probably wouldn't mind much.
    Updated 11th May 2013 at 03:17 AM by FANG-TAN
  10. HumanDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuhashi
    I wouldn't say the detail is much better, aside from slightly better shading. Would you care to explain how that is unfair?
    Because the shots from above are movie quality and the shots used below to "prove" how much cooler Ash looked in past are from an episode. Also, the first picture of BW! you put up was clearly meant to have him look happier.

    EDIT: They look the same to me expression wise.
  11. FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumanDawn
    Because the shots from above are movie quality and the shots used below to "prove" how much cooler Ash looked in past are from an episode.
    But that shouldn't matter unless the episode in question had animation which was terribly off-model. It's not like he looks radically different in the movies, especially the old ones. Regardless, I provided movie-quality Best Wishes in my previous comment anyway.

    Also, the first picture of BW! you put up was clearly meant to have him look happier.
    Other than the writers screwing him over, one of my main gripes about the current Satoshi is that he rarely shows emotions other than extreme happiness, unlike earlier on, where he showed just as much anger, annoyance, and sadness as he did happiness (first 80 episodes). Truth be told, I was somewhat implying that kind of comparison as well. So, yeah, can't really find many pictures of BW Satoshi being pissed enough to the point where he's willing to punch Cthulhu. If anyone can find any, I'd definitely appreciate it.

    Here's plenty of pictures of the original Satoshi being happy, though.

    Updated 11th May 2013 at 02:04 PM by FANG-TAN
  12. Satoshi-kun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN
    In what way is it dated though? The effectiveness of modernization is true. But that doesn't have a direct correlation with the design. One Piece has one of the most "unusual" character designs ever, and the newer episodes retain much of that style. It still enjoys attention from young audiences all over Japan. And then there's Dragon Ball (which inspired the Toriyama-styled eyes on the original Red design, which Satoshi was modeled after).

    If they were to animate the old Satoshi design in modern digital glory (complete with actual black and angled hair) I'm sure the new audiences probably wouldn't mind much.
    In what way is it dated? Well, clothing styles are a lot of it. What looks "cool" on kids changes drastically over the years, and while Ash's 90's look may have been cool then, it is out of style now. One Piece doesn't really count, as it is an "unusual" character design, as you said. There are no clothing trends that they have to worry about, because nothing correlates to the fashion of the time.

    Dragon Ball mixes a lot of different designs, from old Chinese styles (the series is partially based off a Chinese novel from the late 1500's, Journey to the West) to futuristic styles. These are styles that are not going to go out of style, because they either are not currently in style or have never been in style.

    Now, let's compare another Kodomo anime that also runs in Coro Coro in its manga form (as opposed to Weekly Shonen Jump series that are aimed at a slightly older age group) and take a look at main character style changes over a period of time.

    This series is called Doraemon, and I will use screencaps from movies, because there are always going to be differences in quality between TV and Film. A lot of it has to do with budget, iirc.

    The main character, Nobita, is in each of these screencaps.

    This is a screencap from the first movie, in 1980:


    This is a screencap from the tenth movie, in 1989:


    This is a screencap from the twentieth movie, in 1999:


    Note the changes in clothing styles. Also note that there are improvements in the animation style over the years. These kinda things happen to a series that runs for a long period of time, has things such as clothing that need to be updated to current tastes and standards, and has advancements in the field of animation occur over the years that it is being made.
    FANG-TAN likes this.
    Updated 11th May 2013 at 08:05 PM by Satoshi-kun
  13. FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi-kun
    In what way is it dated? Well, clothing styles are a lot of it. What looks "cool" on kids changes drastically over the years, and while Ash's 90's look may have been cool then, it is out of style now. One Piece doesn't really count, as it is an "unusual" character design, as you said. There are no clothing trends that they have to worry about, because nothing correlates to the fashion of the time.

    Dragon Ball mixes a lot of different designs, from old Chinese styles (the series is partially based off a Chinese novel from the late 1500's, Journey to the West) to futuristic styles. These are styles that are not going to go out of style, because they either are not currently in style or have never been in style.

    Now, let's compare another Kodomo anime that also runs in Coro Coro in its manga form (as opposed to Weekly Shonen Jump series that are aimed at a slightly older age group) and take a look at main character style changes over a period of time.

    This series is called Doraemon, and I will use screencaps from movies, because there are always going to be differences in quality between TV and Film. A lot of it has to do with budget, iirc.

    The main character, Nobita, is in each of these screencaps.

    This is a screencap from the first movie, in 1980:


    This is a screencap from the tenth movie, in 1989:


    This is a screencap from the twentieth movie, in 1999:


    Note the changes in clothing styles. Also note that there are improvements in the animation style over the years. These kinda things happen to a series that runs for a long period of time, has things such as clothing that need to be updated to current tastes and standards, and has advancements in the field of animation occur over the years that it is being made.
    That's actually a very good point about the clothing style. However, I actually don't mind the new clothes (in fact, I'm somewhat fond of his BW outfit either way, though I'd prefer Satoshi in Red's FRLG clothes), but more so the way they draw Satoshi's face, arms, etc. Doraemon's character designs have kept a consistent look in terms of how they draw Nobita's face and body, and it would have been nice if they did the same with Satoshi from Pokemon. Satoshi's physique started to change slowly ever since Adanced Generation, but BW's design is so far off from what he originally looked like, which was perfectly fine the way it was. The reason why I cited One Piece was because Satoshi's original facial design isn't typical of modern anime, and I figured that was what you meant.

    On a bit of an unrelated note, I've always had a problem with the studio of Pokemon trying to aim the show at Doraemon's audience. A series like Pokemon, with its themes focused on monster battling, nakama, etc. is always something I felt is more fitting for a shounen. Which is why the older episodes seem to come out as much more fitting as a Pokemon adaptation, at least to me personally, since Takeshi Shudo intended to write the show as family entertainment rather than purely kodomo. Probably why I like comparing Pokemon to shows like Digimon or One Piece more than other kodomo. Back then Satoshi did seem like a fitting protagonist for a shounen anime, rather than a protagonist of a kodomo anime. I guess softening his character design and his speech patterns (the way he refers to others started becoming a tad more respectful in the middle of the Orange Islands, iirc) is reflective of how the show's changed over the years. Of course, I don't find that change fitting, but that's another story.
    Updated 11th May 2013 at 08:47 PM by FANG-TAN
  14. Pokémon Master Ash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bluelatios;bt283389]Yeeaah, Ash was drawn much cooler before. It really felt like his trademark sheer determination was brought out much better with the bolder eyes, eyebrows, and facial expressions.[/QUOTE]

    True that, man! He looked more like a badass too with his older, black bolder eyes. He felt more unique and separate from your standard kodomo anime character to me the way he was drawn before BW.

    To be honest, I think the second BW picture was better than some of the animation in late BF and DP when it comes to how the animators did with Ash, but the first one is just godawful and Ash's pupils are way too large in that picture. :goof:
    Hitmonchan107 likes this.
    Updated 18th May 2013 at 11:10 AM by Pokémon Master Ash

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