Has anyone realized that during a scene in the episode A Poached Ego, a song from the Power of One or Mewtwo strikes back plays when the battle sequence is slowed down? I wonder if there are any other times in the anime where you hear songs from those two movies.
Originally Posted by Musashi I almost wonder if the Japanese music will be completely gone with BW starts. Oh the irony...
Now my own opinion on the Jimmy Zoppi quote is actually that I can agree to a point. It's a tricky process, though. There's knowing where to do it and where not to do it. Plus, the execution has to be, y'know, actually funny. Team Rocket were entertaining under 4Kids so I personally have no problems with them there. On the flip side, they are the worst part of the TPCI dub. Team Rocket has always been written for the older crowd, both in the original and the dub. So if the older fans can't stand them then TPCI have failed at writing their characters. You are absolutely right. 4Kids TR (minus James squealing and such) was actually pretty funny and talked like regular people. They rhymed a few times here and there and most certainly didn't insult each other as much as they did now (and that was back when Jessie was actually crazy haha). The perfect dub would be 4Kids TR mixed in with TR's music and script handling. On a side note, not every BGM piece from Japan is the greatest thing ever. Some of them are rather boring in my opinion. TPCI actually make some good tracks, it's just they are willing to use the boring tracks at the wrong time.
Nice read, even though I find that TPCI does a good enough job, save for some awkward TRio dialogue. That may be because I really couldn't give a darn about BGM or rewrites as long as they make somewhat sense.. And getting that Jimmy Zoppi quote out in public is gonna haunt me for the rest of my time as a Pokéfan :| He got pissed off about it as is. Not to mention he claimed it at a, for him, stressy time and probably didn't even think it through that much. Either way, what is said is said, but don't start nailing him to the cross. He's on the company payroll after all. It's only quite natural he's gonna defend their decisions. thanks, ~Delri
Originally Posted by Snoozer41 That’s not what I heard happened according to one of 4kid’s reps. I’m not about to pretend to know what actually took place between these companies so let’s just drop this topic shall we? Just adding that I heard my side of the story from a Funimation rep. I like civil debate and I’m sure we both don’t want ignorance and hate to rear its ugly head in here. Same here so yeah, let's drop it.
Originally Posted by Mjolnir Uh no, how it went was Funimation was trying to license One Piece at first but, 4kids offered more money and Toei gave it to them. That’s not what I heard happened according to one of 4kid’s reps. I’m not about to pretend to know what actually took place between these companies so let’s just drop this topic shall we? Ok but why even bring that up here? Kazamatsuri is being civil about everything and so are the commentators here (for the most part (can't speak for everyone xP)). It's like you came in here and didn't bother reading the atmosphere, just went "Oh a rant on a dub company? Must just be stupid otaku rantz, I'm gonna complain!" Your saying I didn’t read the atmosphere and started complaining but I clearly stated in my previous post t that I wasn’t accusing anyone here of otaku ranting. Also, I never once attacked anyone here by saying their comments were dumb. It seems like my feedback came off differently to you but let me set the record straight. My intention was to help deter any such rants from taking place in this discussion by adding some further objective commentary. I like civil debate and I’m sure we both don’t want ignorance and hate to rear its ugly head in here.
Originally Posted by Snoozer41 4kids didn’t even seek to acquire One Piece to begin with; Toei gave it to them as package deal. Uh no, how it went was Funimation was trying to license One Piece at first but, 4kids offered more money and Toei gave it to them. And was nitpicking my post really that necessary? I think you know what message I'm trying to get across. It's a forum, people do that/I knew but, didn't feel like having a million lil' mini-quotes. Believe me, I'm not a big fan of edits either [...]Unnecessary amounts of hate that don’t accomplish anything. Ok but why even bring that up here? Kazamatsuri is being civil about everything and so are the commentators here (for the most part (can't speak for everyone xP)). It's like you came in here and didn't bother reading the atmosphere, just went "Oh a rant on a dub company? Must just be stupid otaku rantz, I'm gonna complain!"
Originally Posted by Mjolnir Right so, Studio Pierrot pulled Tokyo Mew Mew from 4kids and Toei took One Piece from 4kids because they didn't care? They took One Piece back and gave it to Funi after 4kids cancelled it and stopped dubbing episodes. It’s not the same as Pokemon and TCPI where they pulled the rug from under 4kids. 4kids didn’t even seek to acquire One Piece to begin with; Toei gave it to them as package deal. Also, Tokyo Mew Mew is just one example. There are dozens of anime that were either unsuccessful or edited and the Japanese studios never bothered to take the licenses back. A business is concerned about profits first. If an edited show manages to sell lots of merch or get good ratings they probably don't care how much it was altered. You were saying? Notice how I said numerous instances and not "no instances". I'm fully aware that there are some industry reps that go out of their way to explain edits such as Vertical Ed and J Sirabella. That still doesn’t change the fact that there are many edits that companies will never try to explain or apologize for. And was nitpicking my post really that necessary? I think you know what message I'm trying to get across. Believe me, I'm not a big fan of edits either but I can still take a moment to try and look at things in a different perspective. The "Rawr!! Edited anime sucks! They ruined the original and spit in the face of the creators! Dub companies are stupid and evilz! is an awful mentality to have. I'm not accusing anyone here of thinking like this but this is often what these kinds of discussions turn into. Just pages upon pages of bashing against TCPI, 4kids, VIZ or anybody else who edits a show. Unnecessary amounts of hate that don’t accomplish anything.
Originally Posted by Snoozer41 They also seem to be under the impression that the majority of the Japanese companies who give the license of their shows away actually care about the property's "artistic integrity". What they fail to realize is that most of the time the people in charge couldn't care less about what the fans of the original version want. Right so, Studio Pierrot pulled Tokyo Mew Mew from 4kids and Toei took One Piece from 4kids because they didn't care? Originally Posted by Snoozer41 There are numerous instances where a manga or anime was edited and companies never bothered to justify their reasoning despite fans complaints. You were saying?
The reason why they don’t have to justify what they do is because people will always find something to complain about. To this day there are still plenty of new English anime and manga that are not uncut or 100% accurately translated but sell well. Likewise there are anime and manga that are uncut and accurate but still perform badly. There are numerous instances where a manga or anime was edited and companies never bothered to justify their reasoning despite fans complaints. Most of the time companies are not looking to make the best possible dub because there will always be people who hate it or refuse to buy it regardless of whether its good or not. We all have different standards when it comes to quality. Not every show is a DBZ, or One Piece where catering to the hardcore-fans is profitable. Even if the enthusiasts are willing to pay more sometimes it’s just a matter of the casual viewers outnumbering them. There’s a reason why so few monster battle/toyetic anime have uncut releases. If stuff like Digimon, Monster Rancher, Blue Dragon, Medabots, Zatch Bell, Pokémon, and etc got the Dragon Box treatment or Funi One Piece treatment how many people would be willing to shell out top dollar for the ultimate release? I’m willing to bet that there would be some but not nearly enough customers to warrant the time and money that went into making it. The fact of the matter is not every anime release will please everyone. Even the most edited and horribly adapted shows have their fans. I don’t have a problem with people criticizing edited anime and manga. My beef is with people who think change automatically makes something inferior to the original. Same goes for people who think filler cannot be as good as the source material. Furthermore, sticking as close as possible to the original isn’t always beneficial for business. There is no right or wrong when it comes to cut or uncut, dub or sub. That’s why I say TCPI is completely fair and justified whenever they make changes. You may not like or understand it but that’s simply how they wish to conduct business. They don’t have to answer to anyone who likes or dislikes their version of Pokémon.
No. You have to back up why the changes are "justified". There are reasons for why the owners of the franchise do what they do. The paying consumer has every right to an opinion on the product, which the owner should take into account as it will affect whether they buy the next product. (Or give the ratings for advertisers in the case of the TV broadcast.) The enthusiasts will be willing to spend more money on the franchise than the casual fan. Now you could have pointed out that TPCI are in a position where they're fine as as long as the younger fans who know nothing of the original version are happy. That is a fact that we have to deal with. But that doesn't mean the series can't still benefit from catering to the older audience's issues with the dub, especially when the alternative of the Japanese version still isn't legally available. For a recent example of that, the recent Dragon Ball Z Kai dub is getting a new generation into Dragon Ball, while the DVD release is uncut with both the original and dub language tracks. And this is a series that was in a similar situation to Pokémon back in the '90s. Changes aren't bad by default but they can certainly make the quality worse. I'm not sure that the fans of the Japanese version are getting their point across by always focusing on the number of BGM kept but there is a fair point when the replacement music is unsuitable to the scene. Case in point: Any lighter episode that has appropriate music in the original but the dub tries to go for dramatic. It just makes the episode seem boring in the dub. And it's always possible to simply like the original score over the dub tracks. Now my own opinion on the Jimmy Zoppi quote is actually that I can agree to a point. It's a tricky process, though. There's knowing where to do it and where not to do it. Plus, the execution has to be, y'know, actually funny. Team Rocket were entertaining under 4Kids so I personally have no problems with them there. On the flip side, they are the worst part of the TPCI dub. Team Rocket has always been written for the older crowd, both in the original and the dub. So if the older fans can't stand them then TPCI have failed at writing their characters.
Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob Quick question; why does it have to stick to its source material? A lot of anime fans and television/film fans in general seem to be under the impression that watching and or buying a show is some sort of legal contract in which the viewer and the distribution company make a written or verbal agreement before the product is released. They also seem to be under the impression that the majority of the Japanese companies who give the license of their shows away actually care about the property's "artistic integrity". What they fail to realize is that most of the time the people in charge couldn't care less about what the fans of the original version want. Money is money no matter if it's from the enthusiasts or the casual buyers. What people have trouble acknowledging is that they don't have any actual ownership over the series they enjoy therefore their opinion ultimately doesn't matter. Once you have legal ownership over something you can do almost anything you want with it. Unless it's against the law, treatment of that possession is entirely up to the owner. Fans of Pokemon can complain all they want about the dub but any changes made to the source material is entirely fair and justified. There's no argument to be had here folks.
"Our commitment this year and for the years of ongoing from here, is that we are going to try to keep the show as traditional as possible and as close to the Japanese version of Pokemon as possible, including trying to keep a lot of background music that comes straight from Japan." Key word: trying. They didn't say they WERE going to do it. They just said they would try :/ About TR, I soooo agree with you about that. I don't mind slang, but it is extremely unnatural to try to rhyme EVERY SINGLE THING that is uttered out of your mouth. Why not just talk like everyone else? The insults are unecessary as well. Especially for contests. Jessie is not a bloodthirsty murderer who is waiting to kill you if she lost a contest. Zoppi is right, the translation isn't funny. But, sometimes it doesn't need to be funny. Add your own spin to make it better, but don't have TOO much artistic license. I'll still stick with the dub though. Not going to boycott the show because of it lol. At the same time, I have a feeling TPCI is going to be more faitful to the script in BW (don't really care about the music).
The "it's just a kids' show, it doesn't deserve a decent translation" argument is complete bull. Who are any of us to say what is and isn't "worthy" of a decent translation? A show doesn't have to be "high art" to deserve keeping its original music and have a decent script.
Originally Posted by Mitsuru Oh, okay. So the kids shows my little sisters watch always have the word 'bastard' running about every few episodes. Right. The "Bastard" is merely their choice of translating "yaro" or "teme", iirc. But the real question is, why are your lil' sisters up that late to begin with? :P
Well look on the bright side, in Best Wishes TR don't get more than 2 minutes of screentime per episode and just talk about their mission. No way for the dub to screw up TR next arc!@
Originally Posted by Mjolnir Them airing where they do doesn't make them any more adult then the other ones there. Oh, okay. So the kids shows my little sisters watch always have the word 'bastard' running about every few episodes. Right.
@Mjolnir Pokemon was (and maybe still is) more popular with kids than any of those shows were or are. And that is because they changed things with their demographic in mind...
Originally Posted by Outrage FMA isn't a kids show conceived for the purpose of selling merchandise,[...] Let's not lump it in with something that was born to sell video games and only still exists to do so. Ok, I only put it there because YeOldeJacob never specified anything beyond "The way they tell stories is different than we do here... that alone makes strict translation a no-no if the show is for kids". I then listed some shows meant for kids that were faithfully dubbed (still waiting for that answer by the way) so, I don't get why everyone's jumping on me.
Originally Posted by Mitsuru Because they can use BW to re-ignite older fans' interest, gaining more revenue. It's possible to have a slightly more mature show that can still entertain children. Any older fans that are still in this franchise probably buy the games regardless of the Anime's advertising, and those fans that out-of-the-loop aren't going to come flocking back because they heard that the anime had suddenly become more true to the source material, when you know, they grew up with the heavily edited 4Kids dub anyway. Gen IV brought back a lot of people who used to play Pokemon, and I know quite a few of those people. Trust me, it wasn't because of the anime, and none of them are interested at watching it. The older fanbase isn't really much of a point in this argument. Um what? I know FMA(currently Brotherhood) and Bleach air on Adult Swim but all the titles I've listed are shounen, meaning they're for kids. Them airing where they do doesn't make them any more adult then the other ones there FMA isn't a kids show conceived for the purpose of selling merchandise, its actually out there to tell a story. Yeah, it has merchandise, but so does everything that gets popular. Let's not lump it in with something that was born to sell video games and only still exists to do so.
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